Dojo to the streets?

Baggio...

Hi y'all,This question goes out to anyone who teaches Martial Arts. What do you guys think is the best way prepare your students, for a life threatening street encounter? How do you take your art, from the Dojo to the streets? Respectfully Baggio.

ninjawitatitude

Hey Baggio,
I suppose it's different for each teacher and will depend largely on their own experience but I would say generally, training in street clothes, removing the mats and so on. Training full contact with light mitts ( Vale Tudo 4 pounders).
That's in my dojo anyway.

Musashi

light mitts ( Vale Tudo 4 pounders).

:eek:

Lead gloves!

fianna.5u.com

I go down the road of developing the person as an athelte, a competative one. With this comes confidence and reassurance. From that they generally don't get in street fights.

We love this sport!

Peace

Colm_OReilly

Papa Fianna is correct, but I imagine this will become another 3 pager.

Baggio...

ninjawitatitude wrote:

I suppose it's different for each teacher and will depend largely on their own experience but I would say generally, training in street clothes, removing the mats and so on. Training full contact with light mitts ( Vale Tudo 4 pounders).
That's in my dojo anyway.

Hi Mate, I've pretty much done that type of sparring too. Pity it hurts! I train in street wear also - with pretty heavy foot wear, I think it's a great idea (shows ones limitation without the Gi). OK so that's the physical side covered, some good tough sparring, not for everyone of course but I think it give a good insight into what a real scrap is.

Just one thing to respond to the other lads on the forum, my first priority is to AVOID and ESCAPE. I have no business getting into a street fight with anyone unless I have no choice.
What about the psychological side of things such as "aggression therapy" or "Realistic scenario training?" Do you guys use these methods in your Dojo? Peace.

dlofnep

Train for reality opposed to spirituality and this shouldn't be a problem.

Millionaire

Yes, I have done alot of Reality Training.

basically, on top of stuff mentioned, like train in street clothes etc.

Set up drills, that model how an attack may happen.

someone shouting at up, pushing you etc.

some good resources for this is www.senshido.com and Geoff Thompson (he got some vidoes that show you, what I mention) and www.urbancombatives.com is excellent too.

loz

Baggio... wrote:

"Realistic scenario training?"

How ? - IMHO This is never possible.

ninjawitatitude

Hey guys,

fianna.5u.com wrote:

I go down the road of developing the person as an athelte...With this comes confidence and reassurance. From that they generally don't get in street fights.

Absolutely. But we're taking this as read no? I doubt there's many teachers telling students to go out and burst guys. We're talking about when all other options have been exhausted. And, even so I've seen plenty of confident guys get jumped.

And like Baggio,

Baggio wrote:

my first priority is to AVOID and ESCAPE. I have no business getting into a street fight with anyone unless I have no choice.

However as a bouncer, I have no choice but to hang around. And despite my confidence people still want to fight me and damage my beautiful face.:)

But then I suppose it depends on what the person trains for in the first place.

ninjawitatitude

Hey Baggio,
intresting point,

Baggio... wrote:

What about the psychological side of things such as "aggression therapy" or "Realistic scenario training?" Do you guys use these methods in your Dojo? Peace.

We try to. As much as possible anyway. These would usually be based on the experiences of doormen, bodyguards, police officers and so on. We look at what happened, how it could have gone better (or worse) and how to prevent it happing in the future.

Roper

loz wrote:

How ? - IMHO This is never possible.

Loz as an ex-military type, did you ever train for "scenarios"? I'd be interested since a lot of reality self defence types seem to quote the military as a cornerstone of their training. I'm referring not so much to operational scenarios but more in the way of hand to hand stuff.

Baggio...

ninjawitatitude wrote:

We try to. As much as possible anyway. These would usually be based on the experiences of doormen, bodyguards, police officers and so on. We look at what happened, how it could have gone better (or worse) and how to prevent it happing in the future.

Hey mate,
Ironically when I worked the door in the UK I never really did much scanario training, more just kick boxing and stuff (really bad idea for me, as I would have been a much better doorman if we had run through some of that type of training, I would have been much more mentally prepared).
It was only when I returned home a number of years ago, I learned about guys like Geoff Thompson and so on - and how they did realistic scenario training (well, as much as one can - you can only go so far after all).

Hey Loz, have a look at bullet man traing or red man training. It's pretty darn realistic, especially on the bullet man. You can pretty much crack him hard as you want. Good talking to y'all. Cheers, Baggio.

loz

Roper wrote:

Loz as an ex-military type, did you ever train for "scenarios"? I'd be interested since a lot of reality self defence types seem to quote the military as a cornerstone of their training. I'm referring not so much to operational scenarios but more in the way of hand to hand stuff.

The hand to hand stuff we did ( RoyalAirForce ) was pretty basic, and only for a few days during basic training. Blocks, Sweeps and strikes against unresisting partner ( one step type techniques ) then a few bouts in the ring with massively oversize gloves on.

Now I wasn't in the RAF Regiment ( The Airforce gunners ) so i cant vouch for further training - or specialist courses the gunners would have gone through.

I was in TCW - Tactical Comms Wing - We did loads of weapons training - although this was also only from static positions - standing,prone,kneeling

- no lethal-weapon style jumps and rolls down the range !!

i'd say a very very small percentage of British Forces personnel get any decent ( useful ) hand to hand - and thats from all 3 forces.

loz

Baggio... wrote:

Hey Loz, have a look at bullet man traing or red man training. It's pretty darn realistic, especially on the bullet man. You can pretty much crack him hard as you want.

Every threw one under a bus or over a motorway bridge, or potted ( glassed ) one ? ? or dragged a female one at knifepoint into bushes ?- how did that turn out ? - they be pretty realistic scenarios would they not ? - how do you coach for them ?

Baggio...

Hey Loz,

Well you can only do your best, and try to train and for the worst case scanario.... I never said that one could replicate a "full scale" attack now did I? Some training is better than no training, are we just suposed to do nothing, and hope a Kata will work?

coyote6

I guest instruct at a law enforcement academy in the states. We set up a "field day" for the cadets which use various building and situations that simulate real life scenarios. We go pretty heavy hands on and it helps burst any preconceived notions of invincibility. Sometimes egos are bruised but the feedback is positive and they say they'd rather learn hard lessons the easy way. So scenario based training can help as long as it is managed well. It takes good roleplayers and some direction (i.e. training objectives) to pull it off.

john kavanagh

imho self defence training should transcend the arena

circumstances will dictate tactics but the delivery systems remain constant

RedXIV

Hey
Just to throw out an opinion here, i've been doing martial arts only a few years and my instructor is the biggest practical joker around but i can't deny he is really good for preparing for the street.

I've had people try and mug me twice in the last two years and thanks to the training, i've come out on top on each occassion. This isn't meant to sound cocky, because i still humbly admit if i ever crossed my instructor, he'd have me in an ambulance in a matter of seconds, i have no ideas about my own sense of invincibility. What i'm trying to get at is my instructor sets up self defence classes and covers every scenario he can think of, including standing at a bar and even sitting on a bar stool. Any kind of training like that i believe will benefit someone attacked on the streets.

And thats my two cents

Millionaire

RedXIV wrote:

Hey
Just to throw out an opinion here, i've been doing martial arts only a few years and my instructor is the biggest practical joker around but i can't deny he is really good for preparing for the street.

I've had people try and mug me twice in the last two years and thanks to the training, i've come out on top on each occassion. This isn't meant to sound cocky, because i still humbly admit if i ever crossed my instructor, he'd have me in an ambulance in a matter of seconds, i have no ideas about my own sense of invincibility. What i'm trying to get at is my instructor sets up self defence classes and covers every scenario he can think of, including standing at a bar and even sitting on a bar stool. Any kind of training like that i believe will benefit someone attacked on the streets.

And thats my two cents

Thats good training to cover various scenarios...

make sure you back it all up with good hard training.

No point if you cannot ,for example, have a right cross that can knock some out!

columok

if i ever crossed my instructor, he'd have me in an ambulance in a matter of seconds,

Sounds like a jerk.

MaxBax

RedXIV wrote:

Hey
Just to throw out an opinion here, i've been doing martial arts only a few years and my instructor is the biggest practical joker around but i can't deny he is really good for preparing for the street.

I've had people try and mug me twice in the last two years and thanks to the training, i've come out on top on each occassion. This isn't meant to sound cocky, because i still humbly admit if i ever crossed my instructor, he'd have me in an ambulance in a matter of seconds, i have no ideas about my own sense of invincibility. What i'm trying to get at is my instructor sets up self defence classes and covers every scenario he can think of, including standing at a bar and even sitting on a bar stool. Any kind of training like that i believe will benefit someone attacked on the streets.

And thats my two cents

where, when and what do you train in ?

RedXIV

columok wrote:

Sounds like a jerk.

I think that came out the wrong way, my instructor is one of my best mates, what i was trying to get across is his incredible ability as a martial artist.

MaxBax wrote:

where, when and what do you train in ?

I train in Tae Kwon Do, The school is in Gorey, Co. Wexford and training times are 9pm on tuesdays and fridays. If you are interested in joining, send word and i'll put you in touch with my instructor. I'm warning you though. he is a complete and utter joker. he put water in my shoes the first night i trained with him

MaxBax

LOL.

Pity, i live in dublin.

Cabelo

RedXIV wrote:

he put water in my shoes the first night i trained with him

Sounds like an absolute jerk.

Roper

RedXIV wrote:

my instructor sets up self defence classes and covers every scenario he can think of, including standing at a bar and even sitting on a bar stool. Any kind of training like that i believe will benefit someone attacked on the streets.

Cool, but question. What sort of delivery systems would you employ as a part of this scenario training. Lets take the bar stool one. This would be a classic "clinch" situation. Close quarters. Whats the method here in your scenario? Taekwondo? Something else?

Whats your instructors name by the way, I know a few from down there.

Pro. F

RedXIV wrote:

covers every scenario he can think of, including standing at a bar and even sitting on a bar stool. Any kind of training like that i believe will benefit someone attacked on the streets.

i saw a French (i think) TKD demo on eurosport years ago where a guy was sitting on a low barstool and used it to whack his attackers. good idea imo.

i think that nightclubs are wary of KO by barstool, though, because i´ve noticed that all the seats are usually heavy and cumbersome.
still, imo, the lateral thinking is whats important.

RedXIV

Cabelo wrote:

Sounds like an absolute jerk.

He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but i'd choose him over any other instructor i've ever encountered. I definitly prefer a class that you can go to and have a little bit of fun in as well, as opposed to other classes where if you talk out of turn, you have to leave.

Roper wrote:

Cool, but question. What sort of delivery systems would you employ as a part of this scenario training. Lets take the bar stool one. This would be a classic "clinch" situation. Close quarters. Whats the method here in your scenario? Taekwondo? Something else?

His idea was simply use the inside of your foot applied sharply to just below the knee if your attackerwas walking towards you, and if attacker comes from other direction, raise yourself slightly off the bar stool and kick it at them, from there it's a normal clinch situation. I still can't pull off the kicking of the stool properly, but when he demonstated it, it looks extremely effective. BTW my instructor's name is Vincent Hogan. he's a third degree in Gorey.

Dragan

RedXIV wrote:

His idea was simply use the inside of your foot applied sharply to just below the knee if your attackerwas walking towards you, and if attacker comes from other direction, raise yourself slightly off the bar stool and kick it at them, from there it's a normal clinch situation. I still can't pull off the kicking of the stool properly, but when he demonstated it, it looks extremely effective. BTW my instructor's name is Vincent Hogan. he's a third degree in Gorey.

I'm assuming the stool was used simply to distract while you closed the distance? Good idea. To be honest though, as mentioned earlier, most clubs have quite heavy stools/chairs these days, plus the changes of someone coming from behind/ to the side etc are high. Add in the fact that your sitting at a stool, it's most likely drawn into the table, if he's coming from in front of you then the table blocks that stool.

Also, unless he actually places his hands on you then your the one assaulting him i'm afraid!!! All in all though, a decent idea. Just like anything else though, more than likely as many situations where it might not work as when it might.

fianna.5u.com

RedXIV wrote:

His idea was simply use the inside of your foot applied sharply to just below the knee if your attackerwas walking towards you, and if attacker comes from other direction, raise yourself slightly off the bar stool and kick it at them, from there it's a normal clinch situation. I still can't pull off the kicking of the stool properly, but when he demonstated it, it looks extremely effective.

Are you serious?

Most bar furniture is designed to be heavy so it can't be removed from the bar, bottles and glasses tend to be better weapons.

One last question, how often do you guys practice "Roaring dragon talks to bouncer and gets golden eagle removed from cave" or "TKDer runs like cheetah into the night?" I cant actually do them either but they look realy impressive too. "Flying phenoix goes to nice bars with good crowd" is another lethal technique, you dont learn that till brown belt though dude.

Peace

Dragan

fianna.5u.com wrote:

One last question, how often do you guys practice "Roaring dragon talks to bouncer and gets golden eagle removed from cave" or "TKDer runs like cheetah into the night?" I cant actually do them either but they look realy impressive too. "Flying phenoix goes to nice bars with good crowd" is another lethal technique, you dont learn that till brown belt though dude.

Peace

Thats harsh dude.

RedXIV

hey, i never said i was an instructor or anything, i'm just saying what i was shown. I've yet to get attacked on a barstool, when i do i'll let you know how effective it is.

fianna.5u.com wrote:

how often do you guys practice "Roaring dragon talks to bouncer and gets golden eagle removed from cave" or "TKDer runs like cheetah into the night?" I cant actually do them either but they look realy impressive too. "Flying phenoix goes to nice bars with good crowd" is another lethal technique, you dont learn that till brown belt though dude.

You've never been out in Gorey have you?

fianna.5u.com

I didnt mean to be harsh, just humoris. I've been in Gorey loads of times. Actually, that said, if you get attacked on a bar stool your gonna have to know the dude. no?

You should do MMA and see what you think of that.
Do you watch the UFC.tv or Pridefc.com?

Peace

RedXIV

fianna.5u.com wrote:

I didnt mean to be harsh, just humoris. I've been in Gorey loads of times. Actually, that said, if you get attacked on a bar stool your gonna have to know the dude. no?

ok, now i believe you've been here. If you know of anything other than TKD in Gorey, post it up here, it's the only one i know of. I don't see alot of any kind of tv these days, college requires far more time spent in pubs than i realised. But i do catch the odd UFC video online here and there. if something similar came here, i'd def try it

ninjawitatitude

Hey Dragan,

Dragan wrote:

...unless he actually places his hands on you then your the one assaulting him i'm afraid.

Actually mate, the law states that you can take action if you believe that you, your family or someone in your care is in genuine danger of physical injury. It's one of those legal grey areas tbh.

Baggio...

Hey mate,

You are right there. If you "truly" fear for your safety or feel threatened in any way. All systems are go, you are allowed to strike pre-emptively. Cheers, Baggio.

Dragan

ninjawitatitude wrote:

Hey Dragan,



Actually mate, the law states that you can take action if you believe that you, your family or someone in your care is in genuine danger of physical injury. It's one of those legal grey areas tbh.

Fair enough. I'll stick to returning fire though, just seems easier to explain things that way.

And before any RBSD guys start going on about bottles and knifes and stuff, i have two legs that work quite well thanks.

Roper

RedXIV wrote:

His idea was simply use the inside of your foot applied sharply to just below the knee if your attackerwas walking towards you, and if attacker comes from other direction, raise yourself slightly off the bar stool and kick it at them, from there it's a normal clinch situation.

????

I...

???

I'm trying...

???

Just visualising...

???

Okay, I have it in my head and it's pure Jackie Chan. Has he ever done this himself or was it a case of having a few pints and thinking like hmmmm, how can I use what I'm sitting on.

Also it doesn't answer my question about delivery systems. What you described is a technique, not a system. You say you train TKD which has no clinch. Care to elaborate?

Also LOL at this:

He may not be everyone's cup of tea, but i'd choose him over any other instructor i've ever encountered.

and then two posts later

If you know of anything other than TKD in Gorey, post it up here

coyote6

One way to diffuse the situation may be to buy the guy a pint. He could be crazy from the thirst.:D

RedXIV

hey i also said i wasn't able to do it.
He did it to me before and it works pretty much as Dragan says, it gives you a short period of time of your attacker thrown off guard.
While as far as i know TKD has no clinchs, my instructor isn't 100% committed to TKD. if he decides to take a class and concentrate on self defence, he's not going to to stick to tae kwon do, if something else is more effective.

and the instructor thing is because i've met loads of TKD instructors around the country. sorry about that

Dragan

RedXIV wrote:

He did it to me before and it works pretty much as Dragan says, it gives you a short period of time of your attacker thrown off guard.

But don't forget it would also not work for the many reasons and circumstances that i gave.

RedXIV

I can't deny that, and as i already pointed out, i can't do it so it's not an option for me anyway. i think i'll just keep practicing "Flying phenoix goes to nice bars with good crowd" for a while

Roper

can't deny that, and as i already pointed out, i can't do it so it's not an option for me anyway. i think i'll just keep practicing "Flying phenoix goes to nice bars with good crowd" for a while

That's Ogles-Bo! Have you been doing my home study course?

Dragan

RedXIV wrote:

I can't deny that, and as i already pointed out, i can't do it so it's not an option for me anyway. i think i'll just keep practicing "Flying phenoix goes to nice bars with good crowd" for a while

Now your talking!