Bertie

ronbyrne2005

supposedly bertie is FF's best electoral asset.why dont the opposition try to weaken his image by attacking his indescision flip flops bertie-isms etc,also highlight that a vote for bertie is a vote for McDowell and harney and prehaps a few flyers with pics of bertie with liam lawlor ray burke and all the other crooks and cronies of FF.

Because when the alternative is Kenny and Rabbitte, the fight back by FF would be rather too easy...now if the person across the way were someone who commanded a bit of respect, like Dukes in his prime, than Bertie would be a valid target...

Cork

I saw Kenny recently in Cork. He is pretty weak.

Before Bertie the Peace Process was a mess. He is achieved much as Taoiseach.

Alan Dukes was an asset to FG. But that party decided to ditch him in favour of Bruton who was in turn ditched in favour of Noonan.

Kenny for all his years in the Dail has achieved little.

Put his achievements along side Berties and Bertie will win by a mile.

liam lawlor ray burke

Lowry was a member if FG?. FG is not itself a party of saints and scholars.

Ray777

The true enormity of Bertie's value to FF will come to the fore when he retires in a few years. Rabbitte and Kenny are clearly of higher intellect, but they both lack Bertie's charisma and ability to appeal to the masses. Yes, he's a brutal public speaker, he can't spell and he's a bit shifty, but the public seems to like that. While he's not very well read, he's got great political nous and has the ability to turn his obvious shortcomings to his advantage.

I might hate everything he stands for, but he's clearly a decent chap - albeit in a 'nod and a wink' kind of way. If Labour or FG want to see power any time this decade, they'd better start looking for a 'Bertie' of their own.

Cork

fg should bring Dukes back as leader.

It was one of the most stupid moves in Irish history to ditch him.

The Tallaght Stratergy would have paid off in the ballot box.


Rabbitt is certainly no Dick Spring.

But I cannot see any potential alternative Labour Leaders.

The_Minister

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

supposedly bertie is FF's best electoral asset.why dont the opposition try to weaken his image by attacking his indescision flip flops bertie-isms etc,also highlight that a vote for bertie is a vote for McDowell and harney and prehaps a few flyers with pics of bertie with liam lawlor ray burke and all the other crooks and cronies of FF.

Bertie could send them flying. On any level of direct comparison he could beat the others. McDowell actually has a lot of support - many see him as one of the true believers, so he is an asset in some ways. Any attack on Bertie would have to be subtle

ivan087

Ray777 wrote:

he's a brutal public speaker, he can't spell and he's a bit shifty, but the public seems to like that. While he's not very well read, he's got great political nous and has the ability to turn his obvious shortcomings to his advantage.

Sounds like President Bush

Ray777

Ray777 wrote:

While he's not very well read...

I'd say the last book Enda read was Peig...:D

murphaph

I really can't understand how Ahern has managed it but he has. I know in my head he's no statesman, but is he intelligent? I think he's clever enough and I could not see Kenny doing it an better. Certainly Rabbitte is more statesmanlike but he'll never really be in the position of Taoiseach anyway so it's academic. Ahern may have had close calls with the dodgiest of the dodgy in irish politics but he's never directly been associated with anything particularly dodgy himself (that certainly doesn't mean he hasn't of course) and the fact remains that people just seem to like the guy. He has a sort of round head, which seems very harmless if you know what I mean.

murphaph

murphaph wrote:

He has a sort of round head, which seems very harmless if you know what I mean.

He just has to watch out for railings - you know the way kids always get their heads trapped between railings...;)

ateam

Bertie Ahern is probably the best Taoiseach this country has ever had.

If anyone believes he is stupid..they obviously don't know much about politics.

ronbyrne2005

ateam wrote:

Bertie Ahern is probably the best Taoiseach this country has ever had.

If anyone believes he is stupid..they obviously don't know much about politics.

i take it your a FF voter.

ateam

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

i take it your a FF voter.

Yep...but a person doesn't become a leader of a country by being indecisive or stupid...

Good luck Enda...

MontgomeryClift

There's nothing to reveal about Ahern. It's all been said by commentators on TV and in the papers - The blunders, the indecision, the possibly intentional spelling errors, the non-answers in the Dáil etc. People know about these things, but do they care?

And people vote for McDowell because they like his right wing style and view that inequality is a good thing. You know, the one-off holiday home owners like himself.

Oh, and FF/PDs, as it stands, won't have enough for a majority. That's why FF are courting Labour.

LostinBlanch

Cork wrote:

Rabbitt is certainly no Dick Spring.

Well he's definitely not going to jump into bed with FF despite all Berties showing his knickers and rolling his eyes.

ronbyrne2005

if labour FG and others cant form coalition rabbite will walk and labour will go into gov with FF,i ahve this from a very important member of labour

The_Minister

MontgomeryClift wrote:

And people vote for McDowell because they like his right wing style and view that inequality is a good thing. You know, the one-off holiday home owners like himself.
.

People vote for McDowell because he tends to shoot straight even if people do not like what he thinks.
There is nothing wrong with owning a holiday home - im guessing ff are not the only green eyed monster that your familiar with.

MontgomeryClift

MontgomeryClift wrote:

You know, the one-off holiday home owners like himself.

Cheap shot.

Maybe people only vote for Rabbitte because because he is like them, you know the fathers who have about 4 incomes earning 300k a year who will only allow their children in private schools and wouldn't be caught dead mixing with public schoolkids with their nits and taytos.

Maybe people voted for Dick Spring because he was like them, rugger bugger types who can talk about their days in Blackrock over a brandy.

Maybe people only voted for Bruton because he was like them, you know the extremely rich farmer who could just spend days on the estate.

MontgomeryClift

Firespinner wrote:

People vote for McDowell because he tends to shoot straight even if people do not like what he thinks.

Hmm... Was he shooting straight when he leaked old Garda information on a person in order to have the CPI's funding cut? Isn't it a bit suspicious that he did this when the CPI began investigating his suspicious dealings over Thornton Hall?

Was he shooting straight when he used the moron's word of the decade and called Pat Rabbitte zehophobic for recommending work permits? This is the character who's tough on immigration. (And I'll bet McDowell would have work permits by now if it didn't mean admitting that their EU open door immigration choice was the wrong one.)

On one recent occasion he was shooting straight: The Café Bar plan. People in general were in favour of that. They "liked what he thought" about that, but it was scuttled by vested interests in FF.

And there's nothing wrong with owning a holiday home? Sure, it's not illegal, but is it decent in a country that has a housing crisis?

The_Minister

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Hmm... Was he shooting straight when he leaked old Garda information on a person in order to have the CPI's funding cut? Isn't it a bit suspicious that he did this when the CPI began investigating his suspicious dealings over Thornton Hall?

He had complained about the CPI before that. I happen to agree with his decision but it is a complicated issue. There was nothing suspicious about the dealings.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Was he shooting straight when he used the moron's word of the decade and called Pat Rabbitte zehophobic for recommending work permits? This is the character who's tough on immigration. (And I'll bet McDowell would have work permits by now if it didn't mean admitting that their EU open door immigration choice was the wrong one.)

It was xenophobic. That pronouncement was racially motivated. There is only anecdotal evidence of job displacement on any large scale. Even the construction industry (that supposed haven of imigrants) has only 8% foreign nationals. McDowell would not introduce a work permit system as he is aware of economic nessecity and the importance of improving Eastern European countries. He just is not one of those sad bleeding hearts who want to say "ah, bless, we can't send them back".
There is nothing wrong with EU immigration - Eastern European girls are sooo hot:D :cool:

MontgomeryClift wrote:

On one recent occasion he was shooting straight: The Café Bar plan. People in general were in favour of that. They "liked what he thought" about that, but it was scuttled by vested interests in FF. .)

I liked that plan, but don't forget fine gael publican interests meant that they even refused to consider it.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

And there's nothing wrong with owning a holiday home? Sure, it's not illegal, but is it decent in a country that has a housing crisis?

Most holiday homes are down the country. The real housing crisis is in the cities. Many people refuse to leave the cities. see a problem?

MontgomeryClift

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Was he shooting straight when he used the moron's word of the decade and called Pat Rabbitte zehophobic for recommending work permits? This is the character who's tough on immigration. (And I'll bet McDowell would have work permits by now if it didn't mean admitting that their EU open door immigration choice was the wrong one.)

Xenophobic?

He was shooting straight as a die.

The two of them, as warmhearted about non-nationals as each other.

fly_agaric

Ray777 wrote:

Rabbitte and Kenny are clearly of higher intellect

Why do you think that?

Anyway, as to the opening post - I'm no Bertie supporter but I'd say attacking Bertie directly would tend to invite more comparison with the alternatives which may not be a good thing for the opposition parties.

The_Minister

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Was he shooting straight when he used the moron's word of the decade and called Pat Rabbitte zehophobic for recommending work permits? :cool:

Why morons word?

MontgomeryClift

Firespinner wrote:

Why morons word?

It just is, (even though I forgot to spell it, Duh). It's like the word 'racist'. It's been used so much by morons that it's lost any real meaning. I expected more from someone who was supposed to be this great straight arrow, take-him-as-you-find-him kind of hero.

And if you don't think that when bidding for the Thornton Hall site, telling the seller your maximum bid before bidding is not suspicious (especially when it's not your own money you're buying with) then you must be some kind of innocent.

And mentioning all these Labour/FG shortcomings to me is implying that I support them. I don't know where you got that idea.

The_Minister

MontgomeryClift wrote:

It just is, (even though I forgot to spell it, Duh). It's like the word 'racist'. It's been used so much by morons that it's lost any real meaning. I expected more from someone who was supposed to be this great straight arrow, take-him-as-you-find-him kind of hero.

You are right those words are often used gratuitously overused to stifle debate, but in this case the use was correct. Rabbitte was attempting to whip up anti-immigrant feeling in order to gain votes. In short, he was using xenophobia for personal gain. (due to lack of statistical evidence for reasons to dislike EU migrants i would count such feeling as xenophobia)

Don't worry its hard to spell

MontgomeryClift

MontgomeryClift wrote:

It's like the word 'racist'.

I think Rabbitte is xenophobic, but not racist.

How about that then?

MontgomeryClift

Firespinner wrote:

You are right those words are often used gratuitously overused to stifle debate, but in this case the use was correct. Rabbitte was attempting to whip up anti-immigrant feeling in order to gain votes.

...because he knows there's a fear amongst the public: "What's all this immigration doing? Are we being silently colonised? Where will it end?"

Call it vote-bait if you like, but why shouldn't he represent that attitude, when nobody in FF or PDs is? A lot of the problem with Irish politics is lack of representation. That's how SF get their votes - People feel unrepresented by FF/FG and their vested interests. The immigration question is a real concern and it's not being represented in government. People are entitled to feel insecure about immigration on a huge scale (and it is on a huge scale now) and they also have the right to have that insecurity addressed, though the Centre for Gender Equality, Multiculturalism, Women's Studies, Thought Control and The Run Up To Christmas might say otherwise.

My reading of McDowell's anger is that he sees hard-line immigration territory as his own, and was angry at Rabbitte for exploiting it where he (McDowell) could not (because he is trapped by FF/PD policy).