Where do you stand on the Muslim cartoon issue?

solskjaer20

Quick poll I suppose.

Catsmokinpot

wheres the pole?:D

im on the fence i must say, people who use the buddy christ excuse that we make fun of our own faith, well we didn't exactly put a bomb in christs hand..... but we did do it to mohamed, the cartoons depict a violent faith, and you may sit back and say thats not true and we know it isnt, but there are others who do think it is, and these cartoons are going to add to it...

but then again theres no excuse for the reactions that some of the muslim community are giving...

RobEire

Whilst I agree that the cartoons were in bad taste, I also think that the Muslim reaction has been excessive and uneccesary.

If they react like this to a cartoon can you really hope for a rational response to more serious/controversial issues? (and yes I know how these cartoons contravene a sacred injunction on visual depictions of the prophet, etc etc)

SeanW

Well, from My siggie you can probably guess where I stand, but I'll say this much: the cartoons didn't hurt anyone, they voilated no-ones rights, in fact they seemingly were forgotten about having been published in the middle of last year and this crap didn't start seriously until a few days ago.

So some people were offended - big f*cking deal. We have a culture in this society, that of free expression, that I or anyone else, have an inaliable right to say just about anything we damn well please, without regard to what hypersensitive hypocrites will be offended.

I've listened to people running down the Irish, "experts" saying blue-eyed people are genetically inferior ... not much else but you get the idea. Someone might be an ignorant f***s but they have a right to say their piece and this is a red line, which we cannot allow ANYONE to cross no matter how much they bomb our subways, burn our flags etc.

Anyone who comes to a democratic EU country and cannot accept this, should seriously consider going back to wherever they came from.

Arab media has no problem writing/drawing similar and worse about Western people, Jews etc. We probably don't know the half of it.

However I fear that if we do not act now to show solidarity with the Danes, we could have Islamo-fascist PC police over here taking out fatwas on anyone who opens their mouths.

I urge everyone to go to http://www.supportdenmark.com/ and take a picture for your website, sig, avatars, blogs etc.

Binomate

SeanW wrote:

I urge everyone to go to http://www.supportdenmark.com/ and take a picture for your website, sig, avatars, blogs etc.

As do I.

RobEire

RobEire wrote:

Whilst I agree that the cartoons were in bad taste, I also think that the Muslim reaction has been excessive and uneccesary.

If they react like this to a cartoon can you really hope for a rational response to more serious/controversial issues? (and yes I know how these cartoons contravene a sacred injunction on visual depictions of the prophet, etc etc)

Thats my thinking.
I dont blame people for thinking that these people are stone mad to react in the way that they have done.

I also tend to wonder when mobs get together like this supposedly to well mob against the cartoon on religous grounds,how many of them are sticking strictly on a personal level to their religion.
I'd wager some if not many arent when they can get away with it-human nature being human nature

gurramok

I agree with what Seanw said.
We live in a democratic society with free expression speech, we don't live in a repressive one

mike65

But where's the poll?

Anyway I'm going to integrate that banner into my sig so that where I stand.

I had to laugh this morning, the guy who dressed up as a suicide bomber was ID'd and is a convicted crack cocaine merchant. What does the Koran have to say about selling drugs I wonder.

Mike.

the_syco

They see something wrong with us slagging off their god, but see nothing wrong with killing people who call their religon violent, or killing lots of people in the name of their "peacefull" religon...:rolleyes:

Muslim cartons?

I'm sticking with Tetra Pak.

Cronus333

Deleted User wrote:

Muslim cartons?

I'm sticking with Tetra Pak.

but seriously I agree with everyone else here:the cartoons were in bad taste but the reaction has been really excessive.

Freddie59

SeanW wrote:

Well, from My siggie you can probably guess where I stand, but I'll say this much: the cartoons didn't hurt anyone, they voilated no-ones rights, in fact they seemingly were forgotten about having been published in the middle of last year and this crap didn't start seriously until a few days ago.

So some people were offended - big f*cking deal. We have a culture in this society, that of free expression, that I or anyone else, have an inaliable right to say just about anything we damn well please, without regard to what hypersensitive hypocrites will be offended.

I've listened to people running down the Irish, "experts" saying blue-eyed people are genetically inferior ... not much else but you get the idea. Someone might be an ignorant f***s but they have a right to say their piece and this is a red line, which we cannot allow ANYONE to cross no matter how much they bomb our subways, burn our flags etc.

Anyone who comes to a democratic EU country and cannot accept this, should seriously consider going back to wherever they came from.

Arab media has no problem writing/drawing similar and worse about Western people, Jews etc. We probably don't know the half of it.

However I fear that if we do not act now to show solidarity with the Danes, we could have Islamo-fascist PC police over here taking out fatwas on anyone who opens their mouths.

I urge everyone to go to http://www.supportdenmark.com/ and take a picture for your website, sig, avatars, blogs etc.

Very well said. Muslims have merely Polarised Western opinion about them and confirmed everyone's worst suspicions.:mad:

philologos

Its not the fact that the picture was there that offends me its the fact that it portrayed Mohammed with a bomb on his head. I am with the Muslims on this one because I believe their Messiah deserves some respect. You also have to realise that this is 1.3 billion people we are talking about here. But their reaction was also unacceptable. You have to remember its against the Quran for faithful Muslims to depict Mohammed, they must feel damn bitter that some non believers of Islam have just done that thing that is sacred to them.

DEmeant0r

The cartoon was in bad taste, yes. But the reaction and boycotting a whole nation's produce because of a few people is a little OTT don't you think?

They don't want us to see their religion as violent, yet they have no problem burning down a whole Danish immigration building, this smacks hard of hyprocrisy... :rolleyes:

Hobbes

SeanW wrote:

but I'll say this much: the cartoons didn't hurt anyone, they voilated no-ones rights, in fact they seemingly were forgotten about having been published in the middle of last year and this crap didn't start seriously until a few days ago.

Oh jeez did we have to open yet another thread on this.

first up last time I checked the EU had a law on Religous hatred or promoting the intolerance of other peoples religon.

Second it wasn't forgotten about at all. This argument has been ongoing since September and has only come to a head now. If the press hadn't of been a pack of idiots and posted the cartoons after knowing that it offended muslims we wouldn't have this mess.

Third, anyone spouting "freedom of speech" is spouting bollox. The same paper refused to print offensive cartoons of Jesus (which btw in case you didn't know is also offensive to muslims), but also a guy in Holland faces jail time today for creating a cartoon about Holocaust denial in response to this mess.

So anyone going on about how the media was hard done by is clearly misguided.

Yes we have idiots rioting as well, but they don't reflect the majority of Muslims. Do you see any rioting going on in Ireland?

Manic Moran

I'm with the Norwegian Foreign Minister:

"We regret that the cartoons were published, but still, we have in this country freedom of expression"

NTM

Zebra3

It's interesting to hear people defending free speech cos it's 'only' muslims that are being insulted.

Would people be defending 'free speech' (whatever the fck it is) if they printed cartoons taking the piss out of the Holocaust? Sure in some European countries denying it is against the law. So much for free speech...

Plus why did certain newspapers reprint the cartoons so many months later. I smell an agenda here.

Freddie59

Zebra3 wrote:

Would people be defending 'free speech' (whatever the fck it is) if they printed cartoons taking the piss out of the Holocaust? Sure in some European countries denying it is against the law. So much for free speech...

What complete and utter twaddle! It's against the law to deny it......BECAUSE IT HAPPENED.....and so as to ensure it doesn't happen again. Trying to appease fanatics is the same as trying to appease Hitler in the 30s - what you get is 'I hear you but I'm not listening'. Have we learned nothing from history? Well I suppose we have - don't trust despots/tyrannical regimes/regimes hiding behind religion.

casanova_kid

I think Fintan O Toole summed it up particularly well in todays Irish Times saying that people in communities and races that are feeling marginilised become very sensitive and can be insulted easily. He says that if someone had depicted us as drunks in a similar situation twenty years ago, we would have been outraged. However, this does not excuse the reaction of some sectors of the Islam community who have exploited the situation to air their extremist views.

Hobbes

Freddie59 wrote:

What complete and utter twaddle! It's against the law to deny it......BECAUSE IT HAPPENED.....

Your just over-reacting :v: , if you believe in freedom of speech then you shouldn't have an issue about it right.

Freddie59

Hobbes wrote:

Your just over-reacting :v: , if you believe in freedom of speech then you shouldn't have an issue about it right.

Over reacting? About six million deaths. I actually place a value on human life. Yes it is freedom of speech and if I am seen by some (blinkered) people to be over reacting then they're entitled to that opinion. Pople said that about Winston Churchill in the late 30s.........

Zebra3

Hobbes wrote:

Your just over-reacting :v: , if you believe in freedom of speech then you shouldn't have an issue about it right.

Yeah, most people only believe in free speech when it suits them.

Not really free speech then, is it?

Imagine the Danish paper had printed cartoons depicting jews as money-grabbing rats who were oppressing muslims? Would people defend free speech then? Well?

Freddie59

Zebra3 wrote:

Yeah, most people only believe in free speech when it suits them.

Not really free speech then, is it?

Imagine the Danish paper had printed cartoons depicting jews as money-grabbing rats who were oppressing muslims? Would people defend free speech then? Well?

At least we have free speech. You won't see debate like this in the middle east (well you probably will........except that anyone with a pro-western stance would be silenced fairly quickly). I presume that a www.boards.iran (don't know the suffix) does exist then?;)

Hobbes

Freddie59 wrote:

At least we have free speech. You won't see debate like this in the middle east

No we don't have free speech. We have restricted speech. Make a picture of the pope having sex with a dog and see how long you last posting it here or see if you can get it printed in a paper.

If you had true freedom of speech on boards.ie you wouldn't be banned from the Islam forum at this time.

Yes it is freedom of speech and if I am seen by some (blinkered) people to be over reacting then they're entitled to that opinion.

So you have no problem with those kinds of cartoons being printed as well. Good to know.

clearz

All ill say is that whenever you see a mulsim ranting on tv my position is the excact opposite. I wont say any more than that or what id like to say because id get banned.
Im glad this happened also because it seems to be polarizing the general view about muslims in Europe towards my end of the spectrum. The Americans and some of us in Europe have known for quite some time what we are up against and it seems that the rest of yous is finally starting to realize it to.

Nuttzz

more cartoon please!!!

Manic Moran

An Iranian newspaper has announced a competition for the best cartoon about the holocaust.

They want to see if the Western countries believe that freedom of expression works both ways.

NTM

oscarBravo

I'm guessing it would provoke angry reactions from some quarters in the west, with almost no burning of Iranian flags, absolutely no torching of embassies, and a distinct lack of riots.

I could be wrong.

Binomate

A friend of mine from Denmark was spat on today by an angry Muslim man. That's a bloody disgrace. This is what is being sent to the extremists from the Danish people:

Dansk I believe:

Undskyld

Undskyld fordi vi bød jer hjerteligt velkommen i vores land
Undskyld fordi vi tog os af jer mens ingen andre gjorde
Undskyld fordi vi gav jer mad på bordet da i var allermest sultne
Undskyld fordi vi gav jer lov til frit at praktisere jeres tro i vores kristne land
Undskyld fordi vi gav jer retten til fri sygepleje når i har allermest brug for det
Undskyld fordi vi gav jer retten til fri uddannelse uanset hvilken i måtte vælge
Undskyld fordi vi gav jer retten til at stemme uanset overbevisninger
Undskyld fordi vi betaler 50% af vores løn for at i skal have det godt
Undskyld fordi vi lader jer bestemme frit over jeres eget liv

Men mest af alt

En undskyldning fra os for at leve i et frit land får i aldrig..!!

English:

Translation:

Sorry

Sorry because we welcomed you to our country with open arms
Sorry because we took care of you when no other country would
Sorry because we put food on your tables when you were starving
Sorry because we let you practise your religion in our Christian Country
Sorry because we gave you the right to free healthcare when you need it
Sorry because we gave you the right to a free education no matter which
Sorry because we gave you the right to vote no matter your beliefs
Sorry because we pay 50% in taxes so you can live well
Sorry because we let you control your own life freely

But

An apology from us for living in a free country with freedom of speech you will never get!

Glad to see they're telling them to fook right off.

samb

Freddie59 wrote:

- don't trust despots/tyrannical regimes/regimes hiding behind religion.

With the ''God bless America'' under your posts are you trying to be funny.


I think we should defend our right to take the piss out of anybody; Jesus, Pope, Mohammed or President are great targets for fun. However I think we must remember that it is only small groups of muslims over-reacting just like a small group of puritans objected here to those paddypowers ads (last supper). These countries are run by and populated mainly by religioius extremists just like Ireland was in the past (remember Catch 22 was banned and Casablanca edited).
We should not label muslims anything as clearz may be doing. We have come out of the dark ages so we must help them do so. Anti muslim sentiment will only breed more extremism. Cultures do change, are we helping the moderate Muslims cause?

samb

Demeant0r wrote:

They don't want us to see their religion as violent, yet they have no problem burning down a whole Danish immigration building, this smacks hard of hyprocrisy... :rolleyes:

I think the people who do not want ''us'' to see 'thier' religion as violent are not the same people that have no problem burning down the Danish immigration building.

Not all Muslims are the same, not all Christians are the same, not all...etc...you and those violent protesters both seem not to have grasped this.

Goodshape

Personally I'm standing firm in the "couldn't give a crap" camp with regards these cartoons. I'm not about to start spouting off about some idiolised notion of freedom of speech, but I couldn't care less what some paper prints either. I have just as much of a right not to read it. Problem solved imho.

It's the fact that people are now being killed that I have a problem with. And things like a "Support Denmark" and "West Is Best" (..are you serious with that by the way?) banners do nothing AT ALL to help the situation.

For whatever misguided reason you've got some seriously pissed off people out there. I don't see what rubbing it in their faces and shouting HA HA HA is going to do to calm them down.


As an aside, I heard on the news this evening that an Iranian newspaper is holding a compitition to find the best cartoon send-up of the holocost. Had to laugh at that.

Can you imagine the stupidity of a war breaking out on account of a ****ing cartoon!?

clearz

samb wrote:

With the ''God bless America'' under your posts are you trying to be funny.


I think we should defend our right to take the piss out of anybody; Jesus, Pope, Mohammed or President are great targets for fun. However I think we must remember that it is only small groups of muslims over-reacting just like a small group of puritans objected here to those paddypowers ads (last supper). These countries are run by and populated mainly by religioius extremists just like Ireland was in the past (remember Catch 22 was banned and Casablanca edited).
We should not label muslims anything as clearz may be doing. We have come out of the dark ages so we must help them do so. Anti muslim sentiment will only breed more extremism. Cultures do change, are we helping the moderate Muslims cause?

Im sorry but I dont have to label them anything. They are doing a pretty good job themselves.

samb

clearz wrote:

Im sorry but I dont have to label them anything. They are doing a pretty good job themselves.

Who, Muslims? Most of them are not rioting or anything, so if we must generalise we must conclude that most muslims rightly do not repond violently when insulted.
Do you think your retoric is helping moderate muslims or is it not feeding into the hands of extremists. If you say you are the enemy then you are.

Capt'n Midnight

Denmark is a democracy with laws. They have freedom of speech.

But they also have laws on slander and lible etc. So this problem should have been taken to court by those who felt agreeved by it. Perhaps they could have sued for PTSD.

I'm wondering if the rioters have seen the cartoons. If they have then they are obviously fit to publish, if not then why are they rioting, who incited them ? The people who are the cause of this are not those who published the pictures, but those who resourted to violence before working within the framework of the law.

But it's like yer man from Procter and Gamble said during the fuss over the "dancing devil" logo of their products. "I wouldn't care if all the real christians boycotted our products, there aren't enough to affect sales." If all the Muslims in the middle east vowed to nevermore buy Danish newspapers or magazines...

This has set relations back. It's Salman Rushdie all over again. Actually the fatwa against him is still in effect so the word again is superfluous.

philologos

Demeant0r wrote:

They don't want us to see their religion as violent, yet they have no problem burning down a whole Danish immigration building, this smacks hard of hyprocrisy... :rolleyes:

You've just fallen into one big trap as many do.. Not all muslims are violent, it's just a very small minority who are. I think as the media show more images of Islamic extremists there will be a perception that the entire islamic world is violent. Thats how stereotypes are made.

Clinical Waste

gurramok wrote:

....
We live in a democratic society with free expression speech, we don't live in a repressive one

Whatever your opinion on this matter, only an fool would believe this staement.

Hobbes

Jakkass wrote:

You've just fallen into one big trap as many do.. Not all muslims are violent, it's just a very small minority who are. I think as the media show more images of Islamic extremists there will be a perception that the entire islamic world is violent. Thats how stereotypes are made.

Exactly. Second largest religon in the world. If the majority were rioting you would know about it.

Freddie59

Hobbes wrote:

If you had true freedom of speech on boards.ie you wouldn't be banned from the Islam forum at this time.

Ah my dear friend Hobbes. Getting to you is it? I was banned from these for articulating the sames views as here (as many others have) but the moderator involved chose to ban me as he didn't agree with my perspective.

Attack the post Mr Hobbes......not the poster. I still have freedom of speech - amazingly it's the Islamic forum which banned me. Now doesn't that say it all!! I rest my case. Checkmate.;)

Freddie59

Manic Moran wrote:

An Iranian newspaper has announced a competition for the best cartoon about the holocaust.

Classic Mulim strategy. Their 'prophet is insulted' and and they attack Israel. Were the cartoons not printed in a Danish newspaper?

Freddie59

samb wrote:

With the ''God bless America'' under your posts are you trying to be funny

No actually - I'm not. I'm giving support and recognition to a country which has paid for our Western freedom in millions of lives. Were it not for them this forum would not exist. Hitler (or maybe some of his middle eastern relations) would now be running the show.

Yes, God Bless America. Long may they reign and protect us from the midlle ages, middle east mindset.

Freddie59

Clinical Waste wrote:

Whatever your opinion on this matter, only an fool would believe this staement.

Only if he was from a tyrannical country, ruled by a despot, and brainwashed from the time he could read.

Wibbs

^^^^^ I'm tempted, I really am.....

SeanW

Hobbes wrote:

No we don't have free speech. We have restricted speech. Make a picture of the pope having sex with a dog and see how long you last posting it here or see if you can get it printed in a paper.

If you had true freedom of speech on boards.ie you wouldn't be banned from the Islam forum at this time.

No, we have free speech. If you drew a cartoon of the Pope having sex with a dog, you could post it here on boards.ie but you'd get banned. Boards.ie would have that right not to carry your cartoon.

All publishers have free speech, and by extension that includes the right to self/member censor. IF they choose not to do so, and to carry something offensive, as the Danish paper did, that is not considered a legal issue as it would be in some Mid. Eastern countries. So the Denmark, Norway, Austria and all the other countries targeted in the recent wave of madness have no case to answer.

This reminds me of a line from one of my favourite movies. "Hey, you can't take away people's right to be assholes." Censorship laws such as those in France and Germany relating to hate speech and anti-semitism don't work - laws don't stop people from hating each other.

I hope the Danes stand tall and do not back down.

ambro25

Can I ask people perusing this thread 3 simple questions:

(i) why such a furore now for something that dates back to September 2005? (i.e. whose agenda?)

(ii) doesn't the Coran advocates tolerance in equal measures to faith? (e.g. associating here Muslim 'tolerance' to 'freedom of speech', so to speak)

(iii) are people calling BLaden to avenge the affront not themselves guilty of idolatry (the very concept upon which the ban of representations of the prophet Mohammet is based)?

Where I stand on the cartoon issue? Self-explanatory from the above: a whole bunch of much-a-do over nothing ... made all the worst since the first deaths-while-protesting yesterday. And I hold Muslim religious leaders (not all of them, but certainly those of the extreme/obscurantist variety, with an agenda) responsible for those deaths, certainly not Denmark or the paper in question :mad:

All this for 12 drawings? So what are they waiting for, to riot in response to the 7 years Hamza got in the UK?

My problem in relation to this whole issue is not the extremists' reaction (expected), but the complacency with which moderate Muslims (and/or relevant ME governments) appear to treat the violation of sovereign land (a Danish embassy in Iran or elsewhere is on Danish -sovereign- soil), calls for unmitigated/unsegregated retaliation on 'the West', unwarranted attacks on Norwegian interest (FFS! bigoted and ignorant!), etc. How can they expect 'the West' not to consider them all the same basket-cases?

As an aside - may I precise that my position in respect of a hypothetical cartoon involving the Pope and a goat, or the Holocaust, and suitable over-reaction by the appropriately/expectedly aggrieved parties, would be exactly the same.

The one thing Marx got right: "... opium for the masses...". Indeed.

Wibbs

ambro25 wrote:

)

(ii) doesn't the Coran advocates tolerance in equal measures to faith? (e.g. associating here Muslim 'tolerance' to 'freedom of speech', so to speak)

Not really. No religion does, by their nature, but Islam while saying in one place that there's "no compulsion in faith", goes out if it's way in other places suggesting that there is, in this world and the next(the suggestion that a person who leaves Islam is to be executed give the game away).

The one thing Marx got right: "... opium for the masses...". Indeed.

Very true, though at the moment it seems it's cocaine for the masses.

Hobbes

SeanW wrote:

No, we have free speech. If you drew a cartoon of the Pope having sex with a dog, you could post it here on boards.ie but you'd get banned. Boards.ie would have that right not to carry your cartoon.

Thats not free speech then. What do you think would happen if boards.ie left the cartoon there? Do you think they would have free speech to do so?

(i) why such a furore now for something that dates back to September 2005? (i.e. whose agenda?)

As mentioned numerous times, the argument has been on going since September and was inflamed more then after the press learning that it was offensive went and printed it in more papers. Add to that clerics visiting the middle east brought copies of the cartoons with them as well as samples they sent by people in Denmark to show the level of racism in Denmark.

Clinical Waste

Freddie59 wrote:

Only if he was from a tyrannical country, ruled by a despot, and brainwashed from the time he could read.

That could be nearly any country, (including this one.)
Only the level of tyranny and brainwashing varies.

county

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2005/03/23/The-Pope.jpg

lets hope all catholics on boards dont go crazy and demonstrate out side my house baying for my blood:rolleyes:

ambro25

Hobbes wrote:

As mentioned numerous times, the argument has been on going since September and was inflamed more then after the press learning that it was offensive went and printed it in more papers.

You may call it inflammation, I call it information. Small nuance, but note that I am not playing on words here - it all started in Denmark 6 months ago or so, and who in Europe or the world at large would have heard of until a few days ago if it wasn't for...

Hobbes wrote:

Add to that clerics visiting the middle east brought copies of the cartoons with them as well as samples they sent by people in Denmark to show the level of racism in Denmark.

This simply corroborates the fact that said 'clerics' have been doing the rounds with nothing more of an agenda than stirring sh1t.

I am certainly not stating that Muslims have no right to be incensed, or to burn Danish flags in Teheran or Lahore. I am stating, certainly, that the reaction has been massively over-proportioned at the hands of those clerics. And I am also stating that they have no such right in 'Western countries' (read: non-Islamic), where they should avail of any appropriate legal mechanism to right what wrong they have perceived. Be it a peaceful demonstration (with placards revendicating outrage, but not calling for murder/assassination/beheading/stoning/whatever and certainly not on the 'West' at large), a suit or whatever...

magick

I hope the Danes stand tall and do not back down

completely agree