Suited Connectors?

azzeretti

Picking up from the AA thread, where many people seem to hate talking about AA!
I have a real hard time letting mid-low suited connetors go pre-flop from MP-LP. I'm not sure why it is exactly but I am almost certain, depeding on action in front of me and personalities, to raise 2-3XBB with something like 67s, 89s, especially on the button:D . I'd also like to throw in a nice raise with 77 & 88 in LP, especially.
Anyone else have hands they just like playing? (apart from the AA etc.)
(I'm pretty much talking 8-9 handed here as obviously these hands increase in value as the seats dwindle)

ntlbell

10 8s I'm not sure where this devloped from but I can never lay it down and will raise from MP/LP/Button and I'll take on a fair bit of action with it, I wish I had some technical reason for it, I don't. it's just some weird psycological attachment. I need help.

Ste05

azzeretti wrote:

(I'm pretty much talking 8-9 handed here as obviously these hands increase in value as the seats dwindle)

These hands decrease in value as the seats dwindle.

IMO, they are great to limp with in late position because you are less likely to be raised and you have position for the rest of the betting rounds. These sort of hands you want to see for cheap with multi-way action. I'd only raise the odd time with these from late position just to mix up my game a bit. But you want to see cheap flops with hands like these because they are easy enough to play. If you hit, then happy days, if you miss and there's action before you you easy to lay them down....

Culchie

I like to play them in the middle part of a tourney, and generally only with an above average stack.

They are nice to see flops with, but bad news to leak chips with, you have to be sure that you've a decent stack, and any opponent you are taking on also has a decent stack, so that you maximise the return on getting involved with them.
If in position I'd prefer to raise rather than limp.

Dump them when the blinds are high, and a limp is very costly.
Dump them when the blind are too low, and not worth winning small pots with.

ollyk1

I mainly play them for steals so I'm raising with them. I sometimes play them for a limp if I think someone has misplayed and only flat called with a big hand looking for a raise hoping to stack them on the flop.

I don't like playing them against better players too often as you can get entangled in their bag of sh1te too. I've seen a lot of good players go crashing out with two pair to a flopped straight or priced in on their draw and being forced to call all-in. I prefer to play them against tighter players as a result or people who don't think about my holding so much!

P.S. I like to play suited connectors as a randomiser better than poor paint cards like KJ/KQ/KT in this resepct imho as your decisions post flop are easier and you know if you're 100% bluffing or drawing or trapping on the flop

Samba

My view of SC's is that they are magnificent for cracking
the big pairs and they are cloaked.

I think the best odds you can get with a SC is somthing like 4-1 dog or close to it V a big pair like AA.

Once i get 3-1 pot odds i will call a raise with them, as most people are getting all their chips in with AA regardless of the flop, the implied odds justify the slight shortfall from your pot odds.

Oh how i love seeing those open ended straight/flush draws.

Another great advantage with the SC is you often know where you stand and they are easy to dump on a missed flop unlike the big pairs on scary flops, very hard to find out 100% where you stand.

Position is vital with the SC's, i'll never limp in EP

The above is designed for Cash play, not tourney

JustMac

I tend to limp with these in mp/lp which I think is correct.

If I flop the flush I would tend to play it fast with a hefty bet/overbet/reraise on the flop, probably because I'm afraid of another someone who is on a higher flush draw. I have folded to a reraise on at least 1 occasion when I sensed I was beat by a higher made flush though more instinct than an actual read. Normally I wouldn't be keen to get them all into the middle at this stage.

If I flop the draw I will play to see a cheap turn/river. If I hit at that stage I would probably put in a decent size bet would be worried if someone played back at me.

Is this good or bad postflop play?

DeVore

I play them preflop much like you Mac, I want to maximise the return by getting in cheap and then playing them post flop. I generally abandon them towards the middle of the tournie unless very well stacked because as Culchie says, they get expensive and the Return on Investment isnt there.

Post flop if I flop a draw I'll get aggressive. I like to play draws aggressively but just under the pot odds I need to make it worth it. so I'll bet 2/3rd of the pot or a little more on a flush draw etc. If I think someone has been sandbagging with AA or KK in EP and suddenly wakes up and starts betting on a 984 flop while I'm holding 98s then ok, if he has trips he probably has all of my chips soon after
More often its someone who got clever with JJ or AA and now wants to make some chips off it.

DeV.

Norwich Fan Rob

id throw them away from early pos, and never play them once the blinds become significant, they are fine for playing early on, to try and hit a big hand and take some chips.
Limping with them and trying to play a lot of flops late on is just impossible, unless u are at a very passive game indeed.
And needless to say they dont play very well into raises in heads up situations.

Gholimoli

azzeretti wrote:

Picking up from the AA thread, where many people seem to hate talking about AA!
I have a real hard time letting mid-low suited connetors go pre-flop from MP-LP. I'm not sure why it is exactly but I am almost certain, depeding on action in front of me and personalities, to raise 2-3XBB with something like 67s, 89s, especially on the button:D . I'd also like to throw in a nice raise with 77 & 88 in LP, especially.
Anyone else have hands they just like playing? (apart from the AA etc.)
(I'm pretty much talking 8-9 handed here as obviously these hands increase in value as the seats dwindle)

i think the reason peopl play these hands too much is becasue they over estimate their Post-flop ability.
They forget that no matter how good you are these hands don’t win all that much simply because they don’t hit the flop needed all that often.
But when we raise with them (or any other hand for that matter) we feel like we own the pot and it’s our natural right to take the pot just because we were the one who raised it.
This will result to a blind aggression post flop and over playing the hand and not releasing it when we should have.
Playing these hands IMO need discipline .have a plan how you’re going to play them and stick to your plan .that’s what is needed. But a lot of us get a visit from the silly fairy when we even get a small part of the flop and then all hell will break loos.
Pure and simply these hands should not be played unless under very good conditions.
One being that you have a big stack compare to the blind levels.
Another being to be able to let it go if the action gets heavy and you know you haven’t got that much.
The most advantageous part of rising with these hands is their deceptiveness .the fact that if you hit it hard then you can’t be put on that hand by your opponent.
However hitting it hard means deffo more than a pair or just an up&down draw .
These hands look much better than they actually are and will lead to us playing over playing them and before we know it boom half the stack gone on a missed draw.

JustMac

DeVore wrote:

Post flop if I flop a draw I'll get aggressive. I like to play draws aggressively but just under the pot odds I need to make it worth it. so I'll bet 2/3rd of the pot or a little more on a flush draw etc.

Gholimoli wrote:

The most advantageous part of rising with these hands is their deceptiveness .the fact that if you hit it hard then you can’t be put on that hand by your opponent.
However hitting it hard means deffo more than a pair or just an up&down draw .

Ok. So if conditions are good. ex. In CO with decent stack compared to blinds you limp, Button limps and BB checks and both also have decent stack sizes. How do you play it when you flop the flush? If its checked to you and you put in a pot sized raise and are re-raised by the Button and BB folds. I'm guessing that this is an 'It Depends' situation. ie whether you have any read on the Button or know his general style of play. With SC if you flop the high side of a straight on a rainbow flop you have the nuts but if you flop a flush you don't know if there is a higher made flush or a higher flush draw. How confident can you be?

Gholimoli

JustMac wrote:

Ok. So if conditions are good. ex. In CO with decent stack compared to blinds you limp, Button limps and BB checks and both also have decent stack sizes. How do you play it when you flop the flush? If its checked to you and you put in a pot sized raise and are re-raised by the Button and BB folds. I'm guessing that this is an 'It Depends' situation. ie whether you have any read on the Button or know his general style of play. With SC if you flop the high side of a straight on a rainbow flop you have the nuts but if you flop a flush you don't know if there is a higher made flush or a higher flush draw. How confident can you be?

on made flush im willing no put all my chips in the middle more than 90% of the times.if you run in to a bigger flush then so be it.

fuzzbox

Suited connectors are great for taking down big pairs WHEN THE CHIPS ARE DEEP. That is small/medium SCs are fab when you have between 100BBs and 300BBs. Thats their zone of terror.

They are not too great when you
A. Dont have any real fold equity (see my recent 7s8s hand for proof) Vs a better made hand
B. Flop a draw in a reasonably big pot (see my recent 7s8s hand for proof), as you can often burn up lots of chips chasing dreams
C. Have to call a raise thats a significant number of chips relative to your stack (see my recent 7s8s hand for proof). If you continually think to yourself "sure I'll just see a flop", and either limp in for 200 with a stack of 2-4k, and then maybe somebody raises, and you fold, or you hit a flop (with a draw and call a bet and fold the turn), then you have burned up some chips.

If you want to take down big pairs ... the best way, is for you to have a bigger pair yourself :-).

If you want to see cheap flops, then Pocket pairs are the man, because you either hit the flop, and now have a monster, or you dont, and now have a worthless piece of cheese.

When playing with 40BBs or less (which is fairly normal for a tourney), you must be pretty careful about what you use your BBs for, or you end up limping in with 98s, flopping 952 and thinking .... I might have the best hand, just once too often.

TacT

I play them when I'm convinced a few people have taken most of the big cards out of the deck mostly. I'll call a substantial raise if enough people are coming into the pot with the likes of 67s and 78s which are my two favourites. Most of the time I'm folding but I play these to get someone (or many peoples) stack because they won't be able to get away from TT-AA regardless of the board cards. I raise with them once in a blue moon just to mix things up but most of the time I'm looking to catch an open ender, trips or two pair and hence find myself calling raises with them more than I would be raising with them.

They're a nice limp hand in LP because if everyone checks and you have any piece of it you can represent and usually pick up the pot, getting people to fold mid pair for fear you have something you do not. Ideal situation I want to be in is with someone that has tens-aces and you have an open ender and even more ideally with a flush/straight flush draw.

They're a goldmine but do need to be used sparingly and very carefully. You don't want to be sitting there with bottom two pair when someone has a set of Kings do you?

Samba

If you want to take down big pairs ... the best way, is for you to have a bigger pair yourself :-).

What about AA, if i am given the correct pot odds I will call a raise EVERY time, ONLY if you get the correct odds otherwise it's -ev play and a clear losing one.

In the exact same manner as PP's you would be mad to pass up odds that are correct to outdraw bigger hands.

There are some players in cash play that you simply will not get their chips without getting a favourable flop or outdrawing them. when they are holding a big hand. Many people just avoid locking horns with these players however the suited Connectors are the best hands for this, and you can send good players on tilt with them.

If you want to grind sit there and play AA, KK everytime, if you want to play poker, shift and change.

5starpool

fuzzbox wrote:

Suited connectors are great for taking down big pairs WHEN THE CHIPS ARE DEEP. That is small/medium SCs are fab when you have between 100BBs and 300BBs. Thats their zone of terror.

They are not too great when you
A. Dont have any real fold equity (see my recent 7s8s hand for proof) Vs a better made hand
B. Flop a draw in a reasonably big pot (see my recent 7s8s hand for proof), as you can often burn up lots of chips chasing dreams
C. Have to call a raise thats a significant number of chips relative to your stack (see my recent 7s8s hand for proof). If you continually think to yourself "sure I'll just see a flop", and either limp in for 200 with a stack of 2-4k, and then maybe somebody raises, and you fold, or you hit a flop (with a draw and call a bet and fold the turn), then you have burned up some chips.

If you want to take down big pairs ... the best way, is for you to have a bigger pair yourself :-).

If you want to see cheap flops, then Pocket pairs are the man, because you either hit the flop, and now have a monster, or you dont, and now have a worthless piece of cheese.

When playing with 40BBs or less (which is fairly normal for a tourney), you must be pretty careful about what you use your BBs for, or you end up limping in with 98s, flopping 952 and thinking .... I might have the best hand, just once too often.

Total agreement with the above from me.

Where is 5pin5 to enlighten us on his theory. If there was ever someone who loves low suited connecters, there is the man.

fuzzbox

TacT wrote:

Ideal situation I want to be in is with someone that has a set of tens-aces and you have an open ender and even more ideally with a flush/straight flush draw.

This statement, is horrendously wrong.

Samba

I want to be in is with someone that has a set of tens-aces and you have an open ender and even more ideally with a flush/straight flush draw.

You certainly do not, as you are 60/40 dog to take down the pot for example

A5h6h with you holding 7h8h. - ev play.

You do want them there with a big PP with no flopped set will put you as the favourite again roughly 60/40

TacT

fixed

Samba

TacT wrote:

right, horrendously wrong but if I have my straight made and he's sitting there with a set by the river I'm usually getting that mans stack.

The only time this would be profitable would be for him to slow play to the river I can't see any half decent player slow playing a flopped set on the board that I took as an example.

It's a losing play in the long run, get your books out!

5starpool

TacT wrote:

right, horrendously wrong but if I have my straight made and he's sitting there with a set by the river I'm usually getting that mans stack.

But you won't make your draw often enough to justify even the implied odds against a flopped set.

Samba

fuzzbox wrote:

This statement, is horrendously wrong.

I would also say that it's very easy to make such a statement, explaining why, would be far more admirable and helpful to other users of the board.

Culchie

Samba wrote:

I would also say that it's very easy to make such a statement, explaining why, would be far more admirable and helpful to other users of the board.

This should stickied, if ever you think a post is a load of bolix ....that's fine, but you must explain why it is a load of bolix.


p.s (not in direct reference to fuzzbox, but to us all)

kincsem

I'm not much of a fan of suited connectors (like 56 hearts). At one time I would be delighted to get them. Not now.

I think ...
suited connectors are overvalued.
offsuit connectors are undervalued.
one gap connectors are undervalued (79).

If you hit a flush with mid-range suited connectors you can get creamed if someone else has a flush. One gap connectors can hit a well disguised straight.

Hold Em is a high card game. Most winning hands are one pair or two pair.

Samba

If you hit a flush with mid-range suited connectors you can get creamed if someone else has a flush.

A good player should (most of the time) know when his flush is no good based on evaluation of any given situation.

One gap connectors can hit a well disguised straight.

agreed but statistically against a hand like AA they have less of an edge than a nice SC.

Hold Em is a high card game. Most winning hands are one pair or two pair

I cannot agree with this, while many big pots are won with big pairs, alot are won with small straights/small flushes, small trips.

A fantastic time to have a nice SC like 78 would be when three players are playing AJ, AQ, AK and it happens, board cards are far more likely to come low when the hands out there are mostly bigger face cards. In the above example 4 handed with your holding of 76/78s you are actually favrouite to win pre-flop.


SC are hands that take a lot of skill to play correctly, once you master them, you will never look back. It's all about knowing when they are no good.


O.k so you prefer playing big pairs, yes i would prefer AA myself but unfortunately you don't always get what you want, so you have to make do with other hands.

AA v KK V 78 AA 62%, KK 16% 78s 22%

So would you prefer KK in the above hand?

fuzzbox

He only said that they were overvalued ... not that they were useless.

I would tend to agree with him. Mostly they are played too often when stacks are not deep enough to warrant it, and when its going to be almost impossible (as a result of stack depth) to "outplay" somebody postflop.

Thus all you are doing is taking the worst of it often.

They are fine playing hands, but you dont have to (and shouldnt) play every one of them.

Samba

fuzzbox wrote:

He only said that they were overvalued ... not that they were useless.

I would tend to agree with him. Mostly they are played too often when stacks are not deep enough to warrant it, and when its going to be almost impossible (as a result of stack depth) to "outplay" somebody postflop.

Thus all you are doing is taking the worst of it often.

They are fine playing hands, but you dont have to (and shouldnt) play every one of them.

Agreed, as i have previously mentioned, you should always be looking for correct pot and implied odds to play them.

I feel that many people undervalue them and do not realise and utilise them to their full potential as they can actually have a statistical edge over other big hands in some situations.

All my reasoning throughout this thread is based on deep stacked cash play.