Is Drug Abuse and Alcoholism A Major Problem with CIE Union Train Drivers?

Transport21 Fan

Do CIE Union train drivers honestly believe they have the right to drive trains bombed out of their minds on booze and pills and if they kill anybody as a result they should have their job for life protected regardless?

And another thing. Has there ever been a new train, station, carraige or anything else in terms of new railway kit which did not automatically have the NBRU banging the war drums right before it was due to be implemented? Any investment in CIE rail transport is automatically used by the CIE Rail unions as a blackmailing tool. The new "high speed trains" now. LOL!

God help us when the Inteconnector is due to open. I really do think they will probably do something really stupid before then, like close the network down on the eve of the Spencer Dock station opening and that'll be the last straw and CIE will be finally dissolved and the rail network privatised. The fantastic success of rail privatisation in the UK and Europe is the durty secret the CIE rail unions want nobody on this wee isle to find out about.

Can't wait to see the CONNEX sticker on the side of the DART and Suburban Rail services in few years and with it full weekend and late night rail services. Great days coming for rail transport in Ireland when we do not have to put up with this carry on anymore.

MarkoP11

The unions have no way out here, Iarnrod Eireann are fully justifed under the Rail Safety Act 2005 to randomly test all safety critical staff

Rail Safety Act 2005 89-1-C wrote:

for the safe operation of the undertaking, at random and in circumstances that are reasonable, where that worker is performing a safety critical task or has made himself or herself available to perform a safety critical task by attending at work.

dmeehan

see also http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1551700&issue_id=13612

The Irish Independent 30/01/06 wrote:

Rail drivers angry at 'safety pressure'

IARNROD Eireann's drivers fear a stricter new safety regime being introduced for recently purchased high-speed trains could lead to staff penalties and put jobs at risk.

The drivers have been issued with nine different manuals following the purchase of 150 new high-speed intercity coaches, the Labour Court was told.

Siptu and the NBRU claim a number of the new safety standards introduced without consultation were "significantly impacting" on the drivers' careers.

The unions told the court "there was a perception that the new safety standards would have a detrimental impact on job security".

One of the safety measures, Standard 23, "is known to the locomotive drivers as a point system in which a driver would have a number of points allocated against him over his driving career.

"A driver after reaching 25 points could find his driving career in serious jeopardy," the unions told a hearing earlier this month.

The changes also involve a new qualification for the drivers, more random medicals, yearly written exams and a further safety standard on drugs and alcohol in the workplace.

I'd much rather a driver's career be in jeopardy, than the lives of a trainload full of innocent passengers :rolleyes:

enterprise

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The fantastic success of rail privatisation in the UK

Erm what planet have you been living on? Kronos?, Vulcan?, Bajor? Certainly not Earth!

BendiBus

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The fantastic success of rail privatisation in the UK and Europe.................

Can't wait to see the CONNEX sticker on the side of the DART and Suburban Rail services..............

Erm, Connex and fantastic rail privatisation in the UK. In the same post. Hmmmm........

arbeitsscheuer

Oh jesus I'm amazed that anybody would write such a thing tbh...

London once had the 2nd finest transport system in Europe, bettered only by the (exceptional) Brussels. No, honestly, it's true. In the early 90's, the two cities Dublin Transport and the Government asked for advice on bettering our transport system were? Yep, Brussels and London.

Then privatisation came in, and the sh*t really hit the fan...

Now London's system is a f**king laughing stock, and it saddens me, a Londoner, to think that someone could be so stupid as to wish for a privatised system in a city like Dublin.

I don't care if I get banned: You're a FCUKING IDIOT Transport21 Fan:mad:

MarkoP11

Amen to the above post, such trolling and blatantly false statements contribute nothing

BTW Connex are the only company to have there franchise terminated in the UK for failure to deliver and there are signs of trouble in Dublin already

On the real issue this is just another attempt by the unions in IE to justify there existance and they will get zero public support, it is against the law for a member of IE staff in a safety critcal role to refuse to be tested. The labour court have no power here its not a labour issue its a legal instrument set down in law.

There are EU directives and standards coming in, one of which is a EU rail driver licence

The medical is a non issue, there is an annual one already.
Testing for drugs/drink is not unreasonable and is in the public interest, what you got to hide ?
If a driver breaks a rule he/she will be subject to disciplinary proceedures thats the way it always has been, but in the context of the new legislation IE have to show safety management proceedures

Transport21 Fan

Not trolling at all MarkoP11. The UK rail network has greatly expanded services since privatisation for both passenger and freight. Rail Freight traffic has grown to astronomically since private companies took over. You're heroes in CIE/IE management just bought more lorries during the same period.

Poll after poll in the UK has stated rail passengers in the UK do not want to go back to British Rail. Privatisation has worked in the UK, Germany, Denmark and several other countries. It brought the kind of money and customer service into railways that only the business sector can offer. Traditional railwaymen were replaced with customer-focussed managers who unlike IE went out there and hussled for more passenger and freight business. Meanwhile the muppets we have running Irish Rail still won't use the Phoenix Park tunnel for no other reason than they are locked into a conservative mindset, no vision, no moxy...typical CIE.

This is the truth. Not my problem if you can't handle it. Just like two disconnected Luas lines carried 22 million passengers RAIL passengers last year and did it without using the Irish railway purist track gauge or as part of the CIE "shell" company. One day you'll have to come to terms with that as well.

Bottom line: if the CIE train drivers have nothing to hide then they would not be so against random testing. And yes, I know they are not junkies and dipsos, but fair is fair. Take the random test, be accountable for your good and bad on the job performance and deal with it. What's good for the rest of us..etc...and yes I do believe that if this was happening in a private company this behaviour would not be happening cos' Deco the DART driver would be Deco the Dolie if he refused to take random testing and abide by new safety regulations.

The RPA/Connex (and even Cormac Rabbitte's Metro Group) are hungry to build metros, light rail and not just in Dublin, but in Cork, Galway and Limerick while your beloved IE management stick a half pointy trains on the end of an American freight loco which will be travelling at a slower speed than Steam trains on the Dublin Cork route in the 1920's and they tell us it is "high speed"...cos it's pointy on one end! Just think about it. CIE/IE have a web of rail lines around Limerick city and it's the RPA who want to build commuter rail services down there. CIE on their Dublin to Galway run trains past Oranmore every day of the week as it this town does not even exsist.

Compared to that give me the privatised mindset and the RPA/Connex anyday - they are looking for customers for rail transport constantly. They are hungry, CIE/IE are old hat. Bums on seats = money, with CIE/IE makes no difference if the trains are empty or full, they keep their jobs. This is a recipe for poor public transport and always has been.

Privatisation of rail is the way forward in Ireland. Not only would we get more meaningful passenger services and especially freight on the railways, but the carry on such as the random drug test refusals by drivers would not be tolerated.

Transport21 Fan

MarkoP11 - Amen to the above post, such trolling and blatantly false statements contribute nothing

Ger Hannon wasn't far from the truth at all was he.

Calina

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Privatisation has worked in the UK, Germany, Denmark and several other countries. It brought the kind of money and customer service into railways that only the business sector can offer.

Really? I can't speak so much for the UK (except I think currently London's public transport is dire) or Denmark, or "several other countries" but there was holy war in Germany when DB was privatised because they got rid of a whole load of staff and all of a sudden, all the trains started running late. An overnight success it was not.

I think the best public transport I've experienced is in France. Their rail system is great. Their local public transport systems (Lyon and Paris stand out) are fantastic. They are not all that expensive to the end punter. And they are not private.

A Dub in Glasgo

Alcohol & Drugs: I am pretty surprised that this requirement is not already in place. I have had to work within these requirements since I joined British Rail (1993). To think that unions have concerns over this requirement is absolute madness.

BR privitisation: Like everything in life, there are good bits to this and bad bits. In my experience, the bad has outweighed the good.

BendiBus

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Meanwhile the muppets we have running Irish Rail...

The senior management team in Iarnrod Eireann are from the UK private rail sector. The MD ran Chiltern Railways and brought in his own team.

shltter

A couple of problems I would see

1 What if a driver is placed on medication that would previously not have prevented him/her from working but under the new rules would be deemed unfit to work. The drivers terms and conditions have changed would the driver be paid sick pay would any such sick time be held against a driver and lead to possible disciplinary action.

2 Illegal Drugs that can be in a persons system with out the person having taken any such substance
Namely cannabis inhaling second hand cannabis smoke could lead to someone failing a drugs test through no fault of there own
cannabis is regularly smoked on our public transport system what happens if joe bloggs train driver is on a dart or bus on his way to work when the local skanger lights up a spliff what is the safe ammount for cannabis in your system how long would it take for your system to clear who would pay a driver in the event of accidental inhalation is it possible to tell the difference between accidental and deliberate use.
Unlike alcohol were there is a legal limit and the effects per milligram are well known and accidental or incidental consumption would be difficult

Obviously I dont want someone driving a train who is unfit to do that job no one does but these are genuine questions I dont know if IE management have answered these questions but if they have not I dont blame the unions for looking for answers
Also safety regulations are one thing and while IE have the right to test drivers what constitutes a failure is not laid out in the legislation nor what action the company may take these issues should be decided following consultation and negotiation
For example for an alcohol test should a driver be completely clear or should it be the current drink driving limit or somewhere in between

A Dub in Glasgo

shltter wrote:

A couple of problems I would see

1 What if a driver is placed on medication that would previously not have prevented him/her from working but under the new rules would be deemed unfit to work. The drivers terms and conditions have changed would the driver be paid sick pay would any such sick time be held against a driver and lead to possible disciplinary action.

I would imagine current guidelines would dictate that a safety critical employee would inform their manager what medication they are on, especially if it is medication that can have an effect on a person. There may well be guidelines as to what medication cannot be taken. When I have had the drug & alcohol tests done, the questionnaire asks what medication is currently being taken and I am pretty sure the test is robust enough to distinguish between medication and illegal drugs/alcohol.

2 Illegal Drugs that can be in a persons system with out the person having taken any such substance
Namely cannabis inhaling second hand cannabis smoke could lead to someone failing a drugs test through no fault of there own
cannabis is regularly smoked on our public transport system what happens if joe bloggs train driver is on a dart or bus on his way to work when the local skanger lights up a spliff what is the safe ammount for cannabis in your system how long would it take for your system to clear who would pay a driver in the event of accidental inhalation is it possible to tell the difference between accidental and deliberate use.
Unlike alcohol were there is a legal limit and the effects per milligram are well known and accidental or incidental consumption would be difficult

I have never heard of somebody failing a drugs test in the circumstances you describe

Obviously I dont want someone driving a train who is unfit to do that job no one does but these are genuine questions I dont know if IE management have answered these questions but if they have not I dont blame the unions for looking for answers
Also safety regulations are one thing and while IE have the right to test drivers what constitutes a failure is not laid out in the legislation nor what action the company may take these issues should be decided following consultation and negotiation
For example for an alcohol test should a driver be completely clear or should it be the current drink driving limit or somewhere in between

I would imagine any trace of alcohol would be sufficient for dismissal. It can be tricky with the morning after effect but you get on with it and learn to manage your intake.

MarkoP11

The 2005 rail safety bill adopts the road traffic act 80mg in 100 millimetre blood measure

Drivers always have been subject to a annual medical going back decades, if someone has a medical conditon that is going to show up at a medical. If the member of staff fails to disclose a condtion well they are asking for trouble

The union doesnt seem worried about about the drink or drugs test, which would as I understand result in instant dismissal, they are more worried about the minor breaches of the rules which will now be logged in a controlled manner. All safety critcal staff are subject to these tests, that everyone from the guy with the green flag in Pearse to the guy in the CTC room in Connolly who verifies that level crossings are clear when the gates are closed

Incidentally the drivers threw a wobbler a few years back when IE started to point radar guns at trains to verify drivers where obeying speed limits.

There are multiple levels of protection in the system, its possible to stop a train more or less remotely on the core network. If a driver collapses there are systems to stop the train

Transport21 Fan

Let me just say that I am not some raving Free Market nazi who wants the stock market to rule our lives. I am more closer to socialism than capitalism, but CIE Union train drivers are just so out of order that they really need to reigned in. Privatising is the only mechanism which can deal with this. Partnership only feeds the greed and arrogance.

Privatisation has of course had growing pains in countries which had good public transport to begin with. The UK the railfreight has grown to spectacular levels compared to BR. The number of Inter-City passengers services has really taken off especially on the East and West coast mainlines.

But here is Ireland we are starting from crap. In France, certain sectors of the SNCF such as FRET is an absolute basket case riddled with union extremism and financial mismanagement - being constantly bailed out by the taxpayer while privatised rail freight companies in neighbouring countries are growing their business and generating massive profits. You do not need to be Stephen Hawkins to work out what's wrong with SNCF FRET.

So the romantic misty-eyed image of the cuddly public railway is hardly justified when really held up to the light, but France unlike Ireland put huge amounts of money into public transport and this always helps. That will never happen in Ireland. It is not in our culture.

The best public transport I have used in any country was in Switzerland. A collection of public and private operators all fully intergrated.

This is sort of what we are heading for in Ireland (well Dublin) and one of the reasons I am so pro T21. It will when finished create competition between the RPA and CIE within the GDR in terms of were people chose to live, eg: if the Metro provides a more reliable service to the City centre than the DART (they'll make the choice of living along the course of the Metro rather than the DART), and this is what IE managers and their fan club such as MarkoP11 are so worried about. The Luas/Metro/Interconenctor station at Stephens Green will be the great leveller. The DART/Arrow might not look so hot after all.

I am also in favour of open access for railfreight and I consider CIE managers to be spoofers and insulting our intelligence when they say railfreight is not viable in Ireland as I have seen some figures regarding a business plan for Belfast-Dublin-Cork railfreight runs which would be extremely lucrative and takes thousands of lorries orr the roads - but this is unlikely to happen as SIPTU have already stated that they will prevent any private company running freight trains operating on public rails (last issue of Liberty) as part of their protest against the opening up of public sector industries under a EU wide framwork as *yawn* it'll affect Irish public sector jobs (sacred cows every last one of them no doubt). So no hope there whatsoever for Open Access railfreight in Ireland without privatisation.

But really when it comes down to the comparision between how a private customer foccussed railway works and a public subsidised one works in an Irish context, all I have to do is compare Luas to DART on one simple yardstick:

On Luas the passenger information displays on both the trains and the station work 99.9% of them. On the DART and IE suburban rail it has got to the situation were most of the new trains have their PIS switched off and this is because of the lazy CIE train driver being too lazy to flick a switch and put it on. If they worked for CONNEX driving a Luas he would switch it on, becuase their jobs might depend on it.

One the Maynooth line the PIS boards have been swithed off for 3 years.

Irish taxpayers paid milions for this stuff and the sheer laziness and apathy of the CIE rail unions who can't be arsed switching on this equipment is well out of order. Luas drivers just flick the switch and on comes their PIS system. That's it... they do what they are paid to do becfause unlike DART drivers they do not have a job for life no matter what. Public money covers their backsides and the incompetence of IE managers.

There is no culture of excellence within the CIE Railways (currently trading under the brand of IE) as it all about jobs for the lads for life. The statement from this article could not put it more black and white

Siptu and the NBRU claim a number of the new safety standards introduced without consultation were "significantly impacting" on the drivers' careers.

The unions told the court "there was a perception that the new safety standards would have a detrimental impact on job security".

Now tell me where the concerns and safety of passengers and Irish taxpayers is outlined in this bizzare statement from Siptu and the NBRU (even by their standards this is simply incredible) - privatisation can only give rail passengers a greater say in how railways are run in this country.

Right now it is SIPTU and and the NBRU telling us that we should not expect to travel safely on Irish Rail if it compromises the jobs of IE employees who may or may not be high drugs and drink while on the job. It you and I the customers who are expected to play Russian Roulette everytime we get on a train becuase the lifelong job status of an CIE train driver superceeds the safety of the passengers on the train. This is what we are being told in black and white - nothing more or nothing less.

There was a time when I would have considered privatising public transport in Ireland to be a terrible thing. Seeing the almost mafioso "protection racket" culture of the CIE rail unions for the greedy vested interest they are (I don't know what more they could do to prove this) and how a cushy little arrangement between them and the suits at IE management really opened my eyes up - our taxes are paying for this crap and now we are being told that we have to deal with the fact that a CIE union train driver maybe drunk or high on drugs because the retention of his employment is more valuable than the 1200 passengers on his DART.

and finally and if you think I am talking bollox in everything I have said and believe none of what I have posted, then believe this one closing statement: THE PURPOSE OF PUBLIC TRANSPORT IS TO TRANSPORT THE PUBLIC, NOT PROVIDE LIFELONG JOBS FOR CIE EMPLOYEES. When we finally come to terms with with this in Ireland then we might have a hope in hell of have a world class public transport system and I say this as a semi-pinko from a working class background.

shltter

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I would imagine current guidelines would dictate that a safety critical employee would inform their manager what medication they are on, especially if it is medication that can have an effect on a person. There may well be guidelines as to what medication cannot be taken. When I have had the drug & alcohol tests done, the questionnaire asks what medication is currently being taken and I am pretty sure the test is robust enough to distinguish between medication and illegal drugs/alcohol..

No you missed my point say if an employee is currently on Drug X and his employer is fully aware of it and allows the employee to work but under the new regime an employee on Drug X would be prevented from working does the employee have to go sick will the employee be paid for this time will such sick time be used in possible disciplinary action or can the employee be moved to a non critical area to work until the course of medication is finished. All of these would have to be discussed and negotiated with the Unions

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I have never heard of somebody failing a drugs test in the circumstances you describe.

So does that mean it cannot happen or you just have not heard of it if you inhale second hand cannabis smoke is it not possible that a test would show traces of that drug in your system since this new regime has been introduced without consultation it is unlikely that IE employees would be aware of where they stand.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I would imagine any trace of alcohol would be sufficient for dismissal. It can be tricky with the morning after effect but you get on with it and learn to manage your intake.

Any trace of alcohol would perhaps be harsh what if someone had sherry trifle after lunch would that be enough for someone to be grounded

Also if this is not the regime that has pertained in IE upto now this is clearly a change in the conditions of employment with the obvious knock on effects on employees social life particularly when many of them will only have one day of at a time due to shift work so they would not have the option of going on the rip saturday night recovering Sunday and be ready for work Monday morning as most workers do. It does not seem unreasonable to me to seek compensation for this encroachment on drivers social lives that did not exist before.



I dont see anything unreasonable in the IE unions looking for either compensation or negotiation to iron out the details of the implementation and to try and ensure an implementation that is fair to the current employees.
For example perhaps a change to the rostering to ensure employees have regular multiple days off.

It is a sign of poor management and poor IR that just implements these kind of changes with out any consultation with it staff

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Let me just say that I am not some raving Free Market nazi who wants the stock market to rule our lives. I am more closer to socialism than capitalism, but CIE Union train drivers are just so out of order that they really need to reigned in. Privatising is the only mechanism which can deal with this. Partnership only feeds the greed and arrogance.

Privatisation has of course had growing pains in countries which had good public transport to begin with. The UK the railfreight has grown to spectacular levels compared to BR. The number of Inter-City passengers services has really taken off especially on the East and West coast mainlines.

But here is Ireland we are starting from crap. In France, certain sectors of the SNCF such as FRET is an absolute basket case riddled with union extremism and financial mismanagement - being constantly bailed out by the taxpayer while privatised rail freight companies in neighbouring countries are growing their business and generating massive profits. You do not need to be Stephen Hawkins to work out what's wrong with SNCF FRET.

So the romantic misty-eyed image of the cuddly public railway is hardly justified when really held up to the light, but France unlike Ireland put huge amounts of money into public transport and this always helps. That will never happen in Ireland. It is not in our culture.

The best public transport I have used in any country was in Switzerland. A collection of public and private operators all fully intergrated.

This is sort of what we are heading for in Ireland (well Dublin) and one of the reasons I am so pro T21. It will when finished create competition between the RPA and CIE within the GDR in terms of were people chose to live, eg: if the Metro provides a more reliable service to the City centre than the DART (they'll make the choice of living along the course of the Metro rather than the DART), and this is what IE managers and their fan club such as MarkoP11 are so worried about. The Luas/Metro/Interconenctor station at Stephens Green will be the great leveller. The DART/Arrow might not look so hot after all.

I am also in favour of open access for railfreight and I consider CIE managers to be spoofers and insulting our intelligence when they say railfreight is not viable in Ireland as I have seen some figures regarding a business plan for Belfast-Dublin-Cork railfreight runs which would be extremely lucrative and takes thousands of lorries orr the roads - but this is unlikely to happen as SIPTU have already stated that they will prevent any private company running freight trains operating on public rails (last issue of Liberty) as part of their protest against the opening up of public sector industries under a EU wide framwork as *yawn* it'll affect Irish public sector jobs (sacred cows every last one of them no doubt). So no hope there whatsoever for Open Access railfreight in Ireland without privatisation.

But really when it comes down to the comparision between how a private customer foccussed railway works and a public subsidised one works in an Irish context, all I have to do is compare Luas to DART on one simple yardstick:

On Luas the passenger information displays on both the trains and the station work 99.9% of them. On the DART and IE suburban rail it has got to the situation were most of the new trains have their PIS switched off and this is because of the lazy CIE train driver being too lazy to flick a switch and put it on. If they worked for CONNEX driving a Luas he would switch it on, becuase their jobs might depend on it.

One the Maynooth line the PIS boards have been swithed off for 3 years.

Irish taxpayers paid milions for this stuff and the sheer laziness and apathy of the CIE rail unions who can't be arsed switching on this equipment is well out of order. Luas drivers just flick the switch and on comes their PIS system. That's it... they do what they are paid to do becfause unlike DART drivers they do not have a job for life no matter what. Public money covers their backsides and the incompetence of IE managers.

There is no culture of excellence within the CIE Railways (currently trading under the brand of IE) as it all about jobs for the lads for life. The statement from this article could not put it more black and white



Now tell me where the concerns and safety of passengers and Irish taxpayers is outlined in this bizzare statement from Siptu and the NBRU (even by their standards this is simply incredible) - privatisation can only give rail passengers a greater say in how railways are run in this country.

Right now it is SIPTU and and the NBRU telling us that we should not expect to travel safely on Irish Rail if it compromises the jobs of IE employees who may or may not be high drugs and drink while on the job. It you and I the customers who are expected to play Russian Roulette everytime we get on a train becuase the lifelong job status of an CIE train driver superceeds the safety of the passengers on the train. This is what we are being told in black and white - nothing more or nothing less.

There was a time when I would have considered privatising public transport in Ireland to be a terrible thing. Seeing the almost mafioso "protection racket" culture of the CIE rail unions for the greedy vested interest they are (I don't know what more they could do to prove this) and how a cushy little arrangement between them and the suits at IE management really opened my eyes up - our taxes are paying for this crap and now we are being told that we have to deal with the fact that a CIE union train driver maybe drunk or high on drugs because the retention of his employment is more valuable than the 1200 passengers on his DART.

and finally and if you think I am talking bollox in everything I have said and believe none of what I have posted, then believe this one closing statement: THE PURPOSE OF PUBLIC TRANSPORT IS TO TRANSPORT THE PUBLIC, NOT PROVIDE LIFELONG JOBS FOR CIE EMPLOYEES. When we finally come to terms with with this in Ireland then we might have a hope in hell of have a world class public transport system and I say this as a semi-pinko from a working class background.

As usual you have completely misread the objection of the CIE unions no where have they said they want drivers to be allowed to work whilst under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

The objection is that these changes have been implemented without consultation

MarkoP11

Are you trying to say that is was acceptable for IE staff to be legally over the limit at work ? Bus driver can't, taxi driver can't, pilots can't. Nothing has changed other than fact random tests are now possible

It was always policy to test for alcohol and drugs after an accident and a supervisor always had the power to refuse a driver to take up duty if in his/her opinion the member of staff was no fit to carry out there job.

There has been no change in employment conditions as there was always a requirement for the driver to be "fit for duty".

Iarnrod Eireann are simply failing in line with new legal requirements, as I understand any authorised official, who is trained to take a breath sample can do so at random while on duty or reporting for duty.

The rostering as I understand guarantees 2 rest days per week one of which generally falls on the weekend. Working hours and distances travelled are all limited, hours are within the EU working time directive and have been since 2001

Transport21 Fan

shltter wrote:

As usual you have completely misread the objection of the CIE unions no where have they said they want drivers to be allowed to work whilst under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

The objection is that these changes have been implemented without consultation

Firstly, I have to ask was Sherry Trifle popular with the strikers during the 1913 lock-out? I am more or a tiramsu man myself, but I am glad to see that you union lads have moved beyond Crunchy bars and Curley Wurleys. Sherry Trifle is very 1970's retro - just like the Irish trade union mentality. So it makes perfect sense that would be were the union taste in deserts lie. Still, I would imagine that the whipped cream on the top plays havoc with the regulation SIPTU beard though?

Anyways...back to 2006

Go back and read the original news story. SIPTU and the NBRU made it quite clear that they cherish the status of an unsackable jobs for life of the CIE Unions ahead of the safety of rail passengers while having Irish taxpayer fund this sociopathic mentality no questions asked.

The article could not be more black and white. Can you explain to me were it stated otherwise in the article. There isn't even hidden within the subtext:

Siptu and the NBRU claim a number of the new safety standards introduced without consultation were "significantly impacting" on the drivers' careers.

The unions told the court "there was a perception that the new safety standards would have a detrimental impact on job security".

The CIE unions are a delusional, self-infatuated vested interest who see themselves immune to accountability within the accepted boundaries of normal workplace practice and public safety.

Seems pretty straight forward to me. CIE rail union members can kill passengers while they are bombed out of their heads on drugs and drink and it in no way should affect their employment status, while SIPTU and NBRU back them up all the way. Not even vague or cryptic, this is what they are stating clearly and openly. CIE union job first, normal social responsibility last.

and some people are nervous about travelling on a Luas!!!

Still I like you are you are like this living piece of history. Tell you what when you and the rest of the trade unions make it to 1980 given me a shout and I'll bring over a Veinetta.

shltter

MarkoP11 wrote:

Are you trying to say that is was acceptable for IE staff to be legally over the limit at work ? Bus driver can't, taxi driver can't, pilots can't. Nothing has changed other than fact random tests are now possible

It was always policy to test for alcohol and drugs after an accident and a supervisor always had the power to refuse a driver to take up duty if in his/her opinion the member of staff was no fit to carry out there job.

There has been no change in employment conditions as there was always a requirement for the driver to be "fit for duty".

Iarnrod Eireann are simply failing in line with new legal requirements, as I understand any authorised official, who is trained to take a breath sample can do so at random while on duty or reporting for duty.

The rostering as I understand guarantees 2 rest days per week one of which generally falls on the weekend. Working hours and distances travelled are all limited, hours are within the EU working time directive and have been since 2001

I dont know if you are deliberately trying to misunderstand me or what

NO I never said it was is or could be OK to be over the legal limit my question and point is
Is the new test the legal drink drive limit or as dub in glasgow suggested a zero limit

Now again I am saying if what was considered fit for duty has changed then things have changed not just a testing regime if legally prescribed drug X was ok but now is it not that is a change
if it was the legal drink drive limit but now it is zero that has changed
If someone is now going to be tested for say cannabis which could have entered their system through second hand smoke that is a change who determines how much if any cannabis an employee can have in their system or how do they determine whether it is a an employee smoked a spliff a few days ago or inhaled second cannabis smoke this morning upstairs on the number 27.

And again yes a driver has 2 days off but if one is on sunday and one is on thursday the driver is due to work the next day after each rest day

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Firstly, I have to ask was Sherry Trifle popular with the strikers during the 1913 lock-out? I am more or a tiramsu man myself, but I am glad to see that you union lads have moved beyond Crunchy bars and Curley Wurleys. Sherry Trifle is very 1970's retro - just like the Irish trade union mentality. So it makes perfect sense that would be were the union taste in deserts lie. Still, I would imagine that the whipped cream on the top plays havoc with the regulation SIPTU beard though?

Anyways...back to 2006

Go back and read the original news story. SIPTU and the NBRU made it quite clear that they cherish the status of an unsackable jobs for life of the CIE Unions ahead of the safety of rail passengers while having Irish taxpayer fund this sociopathic mentality no questions asked.

The article could not be more black and white. Can you explain to me were it stated otherwise in the article. There isn't even hidden within the subtext:



The CIE unions are a delusional, self-infatuated vested interest who see themselves immune to accountability within the accepted boundaries of normal workplace practice and public safety.

Seems pretty straight forward to me. CIE rail union members can kill passengers while they are bombed out of their heads on drugs and drink and it in no way should affect their employment status, while SIPTU and NBRU back them up all the way. Not even vague or cryptic, this is what they are stating clearly and openly. CIE union job first, normal social responsibility last.

and some people are nervous about travelling on a Luas!!!

Still I like you are you are like this living piece of history. Tell you what when you and the rest of the trade unions make it to 1980 given me a shout and I'll bring over a Veinetta.

CIE unions do not condone and will not defend anyone driving for the company who is knowingly under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

Now if you have the intelligence to answer any of the points I raised rather then continually trying to troll I will debate the issue with you other than that I will ignore your posts

MarkoP11

The only change is that the supervisor while considering if a driver is fit for duty may if trained and issued with a warrant to permit so request the driver provide a breath sample. This is all random


As I posted eariler

MarkoP11 wrote:

The 2005 rail safety bill adopts the road traffic act 80mg in 100 millimetre blood measure

shltter wrote:

It does not seem unreasonable to me to seek compensation for this encroachment on drivers social lives that did not exist before.

You are implying that drivers will now have less freedom to drink, that in some way the law will restrict there lives any more than currently. End of the day its a shift based job and clearly drink and a saferty crtical job don't go together thats was known be everyone when they signed up

So why aren't Dublin Bus drivers and Taxi drivers up in arms about random breath testing? Why not because its the law it has no impact on the 99.999% who present for work in a fit state, you got nothing to fear

Drivers working hours have not changed, the rosters have not changed, the rates of pay have not changed, the responsibility of the driver to be fit for duty has not changed. There is no ectra requirement on the driver in the performing of his/her duties. The only time at which a driver or other safety critical staff member can be checked is at the times on which they are on duty or when they attempt to take up duty

Now if a driver shows up to book on and the supervisor is unhappy the existing procedures in place should prevent the driver from taking up duty. It should be noted a member of an Garda Siochana or a Inspector of the RSC can demand a breath sample given reasonable cause, thats beyond IE's hands

Compared to 5 years ago drivers have a guaranteed working week, 2 days off and a sub 39 hour week

Transport21 Fan

Shiller, you only want to stick with your mantra of 'CIE unions are always correct no matter the issue', and they must always be defended and can never be questioned because you exsist in a paradaigm of myopic trade union preservation at any cost to society and the Irish economy as a whole.

You are the very essence of the semi-state union personality type. You're mind is awash with selective emotions responses and plastic victim complexs culled from decades of reading yet another James Connolly bio or some Christy Moore songs which have you lost in a deluded world of were public transport is run for no other reason than to provide jobs for Unions for life - NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

This is in my opinion of what is wrong with CIE - and until we change this CIE union culture we wil never have world class public transport in Ireland and I see privatisation as the most effective method of tackling this issue once and for all. I see no difference between the "Bali for de Golf" and company car fat cats of SIPTU and the Corporate Fat cats. They are both vested interests. The days of Barry Kenny telling us lack of investment is not working anymore as the money is flying in now and the same old issues of lazy bastard, surly muppets who are not doing their jobs properly becuase they are cushion from the the consequences of their actions. It is a false relaity and only the mafioso tactics of the CIE union throwing a wobbler everytime we try to move rail in this country forward keeps them in power.

You cannot even grasp the notion that a public sector job serves any other function than unquestioned retention and protection for life regardless of the consequences and we the idiot taxpayer have to pay for it. You ignore the text of the article I posted to you three times because it opens up an uncomfortable window in the world of the CIE unions and just how out of touch with reality and sociopathic they areally are.

Your concept of intelligence is based on the assumption that the crackpot foaming at the mouth editorials in Liberity are the absolute truth and anyone who disagress with the trade union thought police need to be re-educated as they must be insane and agitators (the Limerick Soviet never took off so liqudation and gulags will have to wait for another day) - It is you that nobody can have an intelligent dialogue with because you have signed up to a union idology which is more akin within the semi-states to a theocratic mandate in terms of unholding it at any cost.

The lack of irony, humour in all your posts, coupled with you total inability to see public transport as anything other than sacred oath to the trade union movement on the topic of train drivers union playing Russian Roulette with the passengers demonstrates, the mindset of the semi-state union movement in Ireland. The Semi-State unions are the the Orange Order of the south when you really look at them for what they are. CIE rail union being without a doubt the most deluded and archaic of all.

Manwhile in the real world the lid on the CIE coffin is closing shut and you only have yourselves to blame...

CIE's monopoly should end, says report
Indo

THE €120m school bus services, as well as other loss-making public transport services, should be put out to tender and CIE's monopoly ended.

A report by Competition Authority executive Anne Ribault-O'Reilly says that the present system gives Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus no incentive to make savings on loss-making routes or expand business on profitable ones.

"The companies may be missing more worthwhile investment and innovation to subsidise loss-making routes."

These subsidies should be allocated by the Government after a competition for exclusive temporary contracts on the agreed routes and services, she says.

Her report, published in the new ESRI quarterly commentary, notes that 80pc of school bus runs are contracted out by Bus Eireann to private operators.

"There is no guarantee that the school services are offered at the lowest possible cost to the Exchequer," she says and recommends that the Department of Transport lose its dual role as owner of CIE and regulator/policy-maker for bus services.

"To liberalise the market, these functions need to be separated," she says.

The report says the inter-city routes should be open to any bus operator who satisfies safety requirements. "Such changes are critical because buses will remain the main player in the delivery of public transport," it says.

shltter

MarkoP11 wrote:

The only change is that the supervisor while considering if a driver is fit for duty may if trained and issued with a warrant to permit so request the driver provide a breath sample. This is all random


As I posted eariler




You are implying that drivers will now have less freedom to drink, that in some way the law will restrict there lives any more than currently. End of the day its a shift based job and clearly drink and a saferty crtical job don't go together thats was known be everyone when they signed up

So why aren't Dublin Bus drivers and Taxi drivers up in arms about random breath testing? Why not because its the law it has no impact on the 99.999% who present for work in a fit state, you got nothing to fear

Drivers working hours have not changed, the rosters have not changed, the rates of pay have not changed, the responsibility of the driver to be fit for duty has not changed. There is no ectra requirement on the driver in the performing of his/her duties. The only time at which a driver or other safety critical staff member can be checked is at the times on which they are on duty or when they attempt to take up duty

Now if a driver shows up to book on and the supervisor is unhappy the existing procedures in place should prevent the driver from taking up duty. It should be noted a member of an Garda Siochana or a Inspector of the RSC can demand a breath sample given reasonable cause, thats beyond IE's hands

Compared to 5 years ago drivers have a guaranteed working week, 2 days off and a sub 39 hour week

Sorry mark I missed that bit in your post in that case I would have no problem as it is merely bringing train driving into line with everyone else

My arguement was based on ADIG suggestion that the alcohol limit might be reduced to zero



On the drug test I would still have a problem on the incidental consumption of for example cannabis and how the company would determine deliberate or accidental consumption ( ie second hand smoke)

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Shiller, you only want to stick with your mantra of 'CIE unions are always correct no matter the issue', and they must always be defended and can never be questioned because you exsist in a paradaigm of myopic trade union preservation at any cost to society and the Irish economy as a whole.

You are the very essence of the semi-state union personality type. You're mind is awash with selective emotions responses and plastic victim complexs culled from decades of reading yet another James Connolly bio or some Christy Moore songs which have you lost in a deluded world of were public transport is run for no other reason than to provide jobs for Unions for life - NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

This is in my opinion of what is wrong with CIE - and until we change this CIE union culture we wil never have world class public transport in Ireland and I see privatisation as the most effective method of tackling this issue once and for all. I see no difference between the "Bali for de Golf" and company car fat cats of SIPTU and the Corporate Fat cats. They are both vested interests. The days of Barry Kenny telling us lack of investment is not working anymore as the money is flying in now and the same old issues of lazy bastard, surly muppets who are not doing their jobs properly becuase they are cushion from the the consequences of their actions. It is a false relaity and only the mafioso tactics of the CIE union throwing a wobbler everytime we try to move rail in this country forward keeps them in power.

You cannot even grasp the notion that a public sector job serves any other function than unquestioned retention and protection for life regardless of the consequences and we the idiot taxpayer have to pay for it. You ignore the text of the article I posted to you three times because it opens up an uncomfortable window in the world of the CIE unions and just how out of touch with reality and sociopathic they areally are.

Your concept of intelligence is based on the assumption that the crackpot foaming at the mouth editorials in Liberity are the absolute truth and anyone who disagress with the trade union thought police need to be re-educated as they must be insane and agitators (the Limerick Soviet never took off so liqudation and gulags will have to wait for another day) - It is you that nobody can have an intelligent dialogue with because you have signed up to a union idology which is more akin within the semi-states to a theocratic mandate in terms of unholding it at any cost.

The lack of irony, humour in all your posts, coupled with you total inability to see public transport as anything other than sacred oath to the trade union movement on the topic of train drivers union playing Russian Roulette with the passengers demonstrates, the mindset of the semi-state union movement in Ireland. The Semi-State unions are the the Orange Order of the south when you really look at them for what they are. CIE rail union being without a doubt the most deluded and archaic of all.

Manwhile in the real world the lid on the CIE coffin is closing shut and you only have yourselves to blame...

CIE's monopoly should end, says report
Indo

THE €120m school bus services, as well as other loss-making public transport services, should be put out to tender and CIE's monopoly ended.

A report by Competition Authority executive Anne Ribault-O'Reilly says that the present system gives Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus no incentive to make savings on loss-making routes or expand business on profitable ones.

"The companies may be missing more worthwhile investment and innovation to subsidise loss-making routes."

These subsidies should be allocated by the Government after a competition for exclusive temporary contracts on the agreed routes and services, she says.

Her report, published in the new ESRI quarterly commentary, notes that 80pc of school bus runs are contracted out by Bus Eireann to private operators.

"There is no guarantee that the school services are offered at the lowest possible cost to the Exchequer," she says and recommends that the Department of Transport lose its dual role as owner of CIE and regulator/policy-maker for bus services.

"To liberalise the market, these functions need to be separated," she says.

The report says the inter-city routes should be open to any bus operator who satisfies safety requirements. "Such changes are critical because buses will remain the main player in the delivery of public transport," it says.

I thought your nonsense seemed familiar but the rant on poor christy moore confirmed it

Pandamania

If I had known it was you I would have ignored your posts earlier

A Dub in Glasgo

shltter wrote:

Sorry mark I missed that bit in your post in that case I would have no problem as it is merely bringing train driving into line with everyone else

My arguement was based on ADIG suggestion that the alcohol limit might be reduced to zero

It was a guess. MarkoP11 clarified it in the next post that it is 80mg/100ml blood. FWIW, I have been working under a regime that applies 29mg/100ml blood which effectively means no alcohol at all.

On the drug test I would still have a problem on the incidental consumption of for example cannabis and how the company would determine deliberate or accidental consumption ( ie second hand smoke)

Not sure what circumstances you envisage a train driver to test positive for 2nd hand smoke. As far as I can recollect, the drug test can also check the presence of drugs in the hair. It needs to be prolonged exposure in a sealed environment to become postive for cannibas, not so much for crack. Standing around while your mate puffs a joint will not cause the drug test to go positive. If a train driver is claiming that he was sitting in an enclosed car with quite a few mates who all happen to be smoking joints for a long time, I would definitely question the wisdom in his choice of mates or the wisdom of his career choice.

shltter

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It was a guess. MarkoP11 clarified it in the next post that it is 80mg/100ml blood. FWIW, I have been working under a regime that applies 29mg/100ml blood which effectively means no alcohol at all..

I know i said might be

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Not sure what circumstances you envisage a train driver to test positive for 2nd hand smoke. As far as I can recollect, the drug test can also check the presence of drugs in the hair. It needs to be prolonged exposure in a sealed environment to become postive for cannibas, not so much for crack. Standing around while your mate puffs a joint will not cause the drug test to go positive. If a train driver is claiming that he was sitting in an enclosed car with quite a few mates who all happen to be smoking joints for a long time, I would definitely question the wisdom in his choice of mates or the wisdom of his career choice.

I know you have been out of the country for a while but over here taking the bus in and out of work on certain routes would give you prolonged exposure in an enclosed enviroment to second hand cannabis smoke


As long as second hand inhalation can be determined I would have no problem my point is what is the limit if any that someone could be allowed to have cannabis in their system before they failed a test obviusly as it is an illegal drug there is no legal limit as in alcohol.
My knowledge is limited in this area but I understood that cannabis stays in your system for a prolonged period.

SeanW

I have to disagree completely with T21fans view of the BR privatisation - the Railtrack era was a disaster, there were a lot of deadly train crashes during the Railtrack years and they eventually went bankrupt. As for Germany, yes the system is good, but punctuality still leaves something to be desired - I took 2 DB trains there in 2004 and both fell behind schedule, one seriously.

However I agree with the whole "union psychosis" theme - and if SIPTU is as responsible for imparining railfreight as Thomas claims, or treating safety as a less-then-priority, then I believe they have a major case to answer.

Red Alert

The problem in CIE is the management. They seem to have some reason to run down the company, although with respect to the driver testing stuff they're right. (Connex incidentally randomly drug tests staff and it's dismissable to refuse a test).

CIE are shooting themselves in the foot buying these 'buses on rails' as all they really are is a diesel engine and an automotive transmission. hence the ride quality is ****, the noise is deafening and the interior is crap and uncomfortable to boot.

Transport21 Fan

The problem with Irish Rail is that it is part of CIE.

CIE do not do public transport and never have. Currently, they are major players in the commerical property sector, who also pay people to drive buses and trains on the side (and increasingly HGVs). The unions and the management within CIE work as a team to keep this cushy arrangement going and the Irish taxpayers pay for all this.

CIE are a property development company which dabbles in public transport on the side. The CIE rail unions are in on this as much as the management.

When was the last time CIE unions protested the closing down of a public transport service be it a rail line or a bus service?

The answer is never, cos they have a job for life either way. They are perfectly happy being the doorman on a snooty apartment block in Spencer Dock as they are driving a train or shunting freight wagons down there. As long as they have a wee badge on their jacket which says "CIE" and they have an unsackable job for life they don't care.

It's not about buses and trains with CIE, just job protection for management and unions.

dowlingm

The supervisor having the authority to request a sample seems very dubious. However, in the aviation industry they have no problem requesting the police to come on board and request a sample from crew if anyone, even security personnel, voice suspicions of alcohol. In Scandinavia they are especially vicious on this as the limit is lower but they have no problem testing or arresting. The US is the same.

If this is the basis of the objection (that the sample be demanded by a police officer not a company official) I can understand why the unions would have a problem.

shltter

dowlingm wrote:

The supervisor having the authority to request a sample seems very dubious. However, in the aviation industry they have no problem requesting the police to come on board and request a sample from crew if anyone, even security personnel, voice suspicions of alcohol. In Scandinavia they are especially vicious on this as the limit is lower but they have no problem testing or arresting. The US is the same.

If this is the basis of the objection (that the sample be demanded by a police officer not a company official) I can understand why the unions would have a problem.[/QUOTE

The problem is not the testing nobody believes that anyone should be allowed to be in charge of a train while under the influence of alcohol or drugs
The problem I presume is the implementation of the new saftey standards I presume IE management have tacked things on to the safety standards so that opposition is muted because it looks like and gob****es can protray it as opposition to safety.
I would imagine that the problems are in the detail which makes it harder for people outside of the loop to understand. And of course people will spin it to suit their own agenda just as they peddle lies and dishonesty about CIE as a whole like claims that employees of CIE are unsackable which is of course nonesense. I work in CIE and I know personally of plenty of people who have been sacked for all kinds of things.

MarkoP11

Who can take a test is quite clear the Rail Safety Act 2005 allows an authorised person to conduct a test

A) That person is appointed by the railway undertaking with the approval of the commission, or is a member of an Garda Siochana

That person must have received training and be authorised by the management of the railway undertaking and is issued with a warrant

Now clearly the persons you would expect to be in the best position to administer such a test are the supervisors present at those places where drivers sign on for duty and such is the most practical time to take a test. There are audits of the proceedures of signing on

This is not some random power trip in IE its the legal situation, under other sections IE could be fined significant sums of money for failings in safety management which explains the tightening of safety related proceedures. The crew in Connex inforced all this from day one as they had a clean sheet to start from

The Act wrote:

(2) Without prejudice to subsection (1), a member of the Garda Sıochana or an authorised person may, for the safe operation of a railway undertaking, at random and in circumstances that are reasonable, make a requirement under subsection (3) of a safety critical worker who is performing a safety critical task or who has made himself or herself available to perform a safety critical task by attending at work.

.....

97.—(1) A safety critical worker who performs a safety critical task, or who makes himself or herself available to perform such a task by attending at work, while being unfit, is guilty of an offence.

End of the day no one has anything to fear if you follow the rules which are common sense in most cases there is nothing to fear, this has been known about since 2001 and if the unions have a problem they had ample time to argue it with the DoT