Fitz €270, that deal!

dinjo99

I was one of the other 5 who took €2,800 last night when Teddy took €10k.
I think Teddy did get a very good deal, too good on reflection.
However he did have about 55% of the chips, was hitting huge hands and had already eliminated 3 players at the final table.

However I was happy enough. I was second lowest in chips, (fifth) which would pay €1,500, I had 8 big blinds and the way the table was playing I would only get to play one hand (All In)
Most importantly for me it was 3.45 am and I was up for work at 7.30.

OK we all had a chance at 11k (slim for me) but I play one tournie a week, purely for passtime and last nights payout has me freerolling till the Summer.
This attitude will be regarded by many as weak and lacking ambition but Different Strokes..etc
Any thoughts?

califano

Well done dinjo

ollyk1

hey dinjo,

Well done on making it ITM last night but would you mind posting the payout structure before the deal was proposed? Also what were the other chips stacks like?

careca

Firstly, congrats on the big win. Nice one.

It sounds like a terrible deal although you don't seem to have done that bad out of it either. We would really need to know all the chips stacks involved and the blinds etc. If everyone else was shortstacked it might make sense but there must have been one or two with an 'alright' stack who could have taken on the chip leader and maybe do a better deal with 3/4 left.

The fact that he was getting monster hands is of no consequence.

Anyway, at the end of the day if you are happy with it, thats all that matters. Well done again.

ocallagh

There should be a book written on deal-making.. and EVERY poker player should read it. Teddy was given a present of about 2K/3K last night. People are way too passive about making deals.. They don't speak their mind (I'm guilty of this too).. and one dominant personality at the table can easily take advantage of this.

ps: I'm not saying Teddy did anything wrong - I'd have done the same thing!

Fatboydim

Agree with Nial... Can understand why you took the deal and well done... But it's Teddy who came away laughing... Fair play to him. Never be afraid to speak up on a deal or to turn one down... However if the four of you in 2nd to 5th chip counts were all relatively even then I guess everyone came away happy.

BigDragon

ocallagh wrote:

There should be a book written on deal-making.. and EVERY poker player should read it. Teddy was given a present of about 2K/3K last night. People are way too passive about making deals.. They don't speak their mind (I'm guilty of this too).. and one dominant personality at the table can easily take advantage of this.

ps: I'm not saying Teddy did anything wrong - I'd have done the same thing!

http://www.barrygreenstein.com/settlements%20in%20tournaments.doc

Good luck and use calculators sensibly.

dinjo99

careca wrote:

Firstly, congrats on the big win. Nice one.

It sounds like a terrible deal although you don't seem to have done that bad out of it either. We would really need to know all the chips stacks involved and the blinds etc. If everyone else was shortstacked it might make sense but there must have been one or two with an 'alright' stack who could have taken on the chip leader and maybe do a better deal with 3/4 left.

The fact that he was getting monster hands is of no consequence.

Anyway, at the end of the day if you are happy with it, thats all that matters. Well done again.

I think payout for 1 to 6 was as follows,
11k, 5.5k 3k 2k 1.5k 1.1k

Total Chips 605k

Blinds 2.5k, 5k

Stacks Teddy 340k

Other 5 Stacks 80k(Mark Strahan)
65k(Christy Smith)
55k(?)
40k(me)
25k(Ronan)

ianmc38

dinjo99 wrote:

I think payout for 1 to 6 was as follows,
11k, 5.5k 3k 2k 1.5k 1.1k

Total Chips 605k

Blinds 2.5k, 5k

Stacks Teddy 340k

Other 5 Stacks 80k(Mark Strahan)
65k(Christy Smith)
55k(?)
40k(me)
25k(Ronan)

With 8xBB i'd be happy with that deal.

Mark Strahan must be some lunatic to accept that with 2 shortstacks at the table.

dinjo99

ianmc38 wrote:

With 8xBB i'd be happy with that deal.

Mark Strahan must be some lunatic to accept that with 2 shortstacks at the table.

Just to add 1 rider, it was 3.45am, I was tired so I can't say that the chip counts are 100% accurate.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

With 8xBB i'd be happy with that deal.

Mark Strahan must be some lunatic to accept that with 2 shortstacks at the table.

They arent that short compared to him, and 2.8k now is not far off 3rd place money.

3rd place money now free of risk, and go home, at 3.45am is not always bad.

If the guy has 340k, and 2nd place has 80k, then you really have to give him something good to make him finish the game now. He gave up 1k, which aint bad.

ocallagh

Mark Strahan is mad for accepting that deal.

NickyOD

Another absolutely brutal deal on a long list of brutal deals that have taken place in big tournaments in this country over the last year. When will people learn? I'm not even going to begin explain how much money you give up on average here with this deal or how much the chip leader will gain because it's been done on this forum a dozen times before.

ocallagh

BigDragon wrote:

http://www.barrygreenstein.com/settlements%20in%20tournaments.doc

Good luck and use calculators sensibly.

ps Dave - Thanks for the link! I think everyone here should read this

Doc Farrell

This is not a deal i would have accepted and i know my deals baby! :rolleyes:



unless i was Teddy, oh man, he must have been grinning all the way home!


ps: congrats dinjo on making a few quid. no harm in that especially if u were low stacked.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

They arent that short compared to him, and 2.8k now is not far off 3rd place money.

3rd place money now free of risk, and go home, at 3.45am is not always bad.

If the guy has 340k, and 2nd place has 80k, then you really have to give him something good to make him finish the game now. He gave up 1k, which aint bad.

No, deal was ridiculous for all except Teddy, who's still laughing now at the suckers that accepted that robbery.

pokertroll

ocallagh wrote:

Mark Strahan is mad for accepting that deal.

Doesn't surpise me Niall - remember last week in the Merrion he wanted to make a deal with 9 players left - only 23 players started the tournament!
He then proceeded to suggest a deal every time a player was knocked out.

DeVore

Hey! Don't tap the aquarium. I don't teach people how to play poker, you don't teach them how to make deals... ok?

As far as I can tell Teddy took 10k and everyone else took a flat 2.8k?
If that is true my hat is off to Teddy, I doubt even I could have kept a straight face proposing that.

Funny thing about deals is that they are, by their zero-sum nature, as good for somepeople as they are bad for others. ie: Teddy obviously did well but I think there was value in that deal for Ronan certainly and Dinjo possibly. Ronan has 5BB's left which is 25 deals. Realisitically he has about 5-10 deals before it becomes any two and he'll certainly get at least one or two callers at that point. He has to come 3rd out of the remaining 6 to beat that deal and if I was Ronan I would quitely thank Teddy afterwards. Dinjo is in a better position and *could* refuse it, wait until Ronan exits and renegotiate the deal with the extra cash that Ronan would have left on the table. He might find himself in a stronger position but he might become the next "lets wait till *he's* gone" player too.

Everyone elses is stone cold bonkers. The (obvious) value for Teddy (and imho Ronan) comes from the other players, it has nowhere else to come from.
Or does it?

Dinjo has repeatedly pointed out *non-poker* reasons why he took this deal. Work in the morning, tiredness, Teddy's apparent luck (others say its irrelevant, I say Teddy made a bundle off using it in the deal! Hardly irrelevant!). Teddy may or may not have consciously factored these in but by including things like early finishing time, which have more apparent value to the others then him (or so he would say) they feel they are getting something extra, or at least something that they value more highly then Teddy. Hence the balance seems to be restored in the deal. Of course it isnt, but so long as Teddy doesnt *yawn* or anything, who's to know

Not all deals are bad. In fact a deal *cannot* be bad for EVERYONE. At best/worst its fair and even for all.

On thing though, the payout structure is disgraceful.

11k, 5.5k 3k 2k 1.5k 1.1k

120 started afaik, thats 30k in the pool. 11k went to first, ok thats a lot but not unreasonable but the drop off after that gives me vertigo.
Coming 4th in the 120 person big cost tourney and getting 2k would leave me angry. Very very angry. We've been down that argument before but its structures like this that lead to "sure I'd have to come 3rd to beat that deal" deals.

Is it any wonder people accept them.

DeV.

nicryan

when talking to teddy afterwards (who said he had nothing to do with comming up with the deal - he was just offered 10k by strahan who proposed the deal AFAIK) I asked him would he have accepted 7k? and he said he'd have held out for 8 but eventually settled for 7.5....which would mean an extra 500 for everyone...


Nic

NickyOD

fuzzbox wrote:

If the guy has 340k, and 2nd place has 80k, then you really have to give him something good to make him finish the game now. He gave up 1k, which aint bad.

If he plays the tournament to completion every time with no deal, how much do you think Teddy will win on average with this payout strucutre and how much on average will the other players win?

ocallagh

NickyOD wrote:

If he plays the tournament to completion every time, how much do you think Teddy will win on average with this payout strucutre?

And that is the exact figure the 5 others gave up by taking this deal. in or around 3K I'd say.. maybe more.. so point proved - bad deal. Up for work in the morning is no excuse IMO. 4.30am or 5am makes no difference at that stage of the night..!

Pokertroll wrote:

Doesn't surpise me Niall - remember last week in the Merrion he wanted to make a deal with 9 players left - only 23 players started the tournament!
He then proceeded to suggest a deal every time a player was knocked out.

I think this is the reason the fitz 270 ended the way it did. Mark seems to have a thing for deals... Myself, Mark(Pokertroll), Mark Strahan and Joseph were left in the Merrion 150 rebuy last week. Joseph had a healthy chip lead, but it was possible we'd get back into it.. Anyway, Strahan offered a deal giving Joseph first place and we'd split the rest... mad!! Josph does not win that tournament every time and by taking that deal we all lose out.. Of course I went out in 4th then:D but I'm still happy I declined the deal.

pokertroll

I agree with Tom - the payout structure for that tournament is poor - only the top 10% should be paid in any tournament - too much of the prize pool is wasted paying the second last table, this providing an incentive to make deals at the final table. Deals like this seem to be happening every month in this game- one of the reasons I didn't play it last night.

The deal last night suited only the 2 shortstacks and the big stack. The other players should be ashamed of themselves. It strikes me as a lack of confidence in their own ability. So many times I have seen big chip leaders mess up at the final table - think of the Christmas Cracker at the sporting Emporium where Harold was the small (tiny) stack and Liam Flood was the monster chip leader with half the chips in play - yet Harold went on to split the money with Goran and Liam came 4th.

dinjo99

nicryan wrote:

when talking to teddy afterwards (who said he had nothing to do with comming up with the deal - he was just offered 10k by strahan who proposed the deal AFAIK) I asked him would he have accepted 7k? and he said he'd have held out for 8 but eventually settled for 7.5....which would mean an extra 500 for everyone...


Nic

To be fair Teddy had nothing to do with proposing this deal. (He accepted it quickly though!!!)

Mark Strahan didn't propose it either to be fair to him.(well someone has to be!)

The deal was actually worked out/suggested by a railbird.(regular in the cash game, can't remember his name)

I was pushing for it, Teddy, Christy, Ronan, "other guy"were happy and so was Mark S (which surprised me)

I know most people who post here think I was weak/cowardly for accepting
but I was most likely looking at 1.5K or even 1.1K and at the level that I play at 1.3K is significant.
I Know people dont agree but the lateness of the hour was a factor for me.

There was also very little play as most hands seemed to be all-in heads-up with Teddy and Teddy had won them all till then.

One last factor was that I had just doubled up Christy when his AJ cracked my KK(all-in preflop). If I had won that hand the lateness wouldnt have bothered me and I would not have been accepting that deal!

5starpool

Nigel (red hair, golf visor on last night) was the other player there. I am surprised he accepted that deal too. I am guessing railbird was Ray who was watching every time I went up to check.

DeVore

Dinjo, I don't know that I would have refused it in your position. Its not a bad deal for you tbh!

DeV.

kincsem

,

dinjo99 wrote:

I was one of the other 5 who took €2,800 last night when Teddy took €10k.
I think Teddy did get a very good deal, too good on reflection.
However he did have about 55% of the chips, was hitting huge hands and had already eliminated 3 players at the final table.

I assume it was Teddy Hickson.

That is an unbelievable deal in favour of the chip leader. Looks like his hypnotism night classes have paid off.

About a year ago I split the Friday night three ways €1900; €1400; €1400. The chips were 234,000; 50,000 est; 50,000 est.

The most a chip leader should get is about double the next prize, which he would get if was played out. A chip leader could easily be eliminated in four hands. I've seen many chip leaders eliminated in two hands.

Well done Teddy.

dinjo99

DeVore wrote:

Dinjo, I don't know that I would have refused it in your position. Its not a bad deal for you tbh!

DeV.

cheers Tom.
TBH I am still happy now, 16 hours later no regrets.

I should have been out in 15th when I was all in with JJ against KK

Flop 3 K A

Turn Q

River 10

Cruel but sweet, Coat off again, sit back down!!


I also filled a straight with 10 J earlier to knock Brian Vickers out holding KK!!

kinaldo

dinjo99 wrote:

I was one of the other 5 who took €2,800 last night when Teddy took €10k.
I think Teddy did get a very good deal, too good on reflection.
However he did have about 55% of the chips, was hitting huge hands and had already eliminated 3 players at the final table.

However I was happy enough. I was second lowest in chips, (fifth) which would pay €1,500, I had 8 big blinds and the way the table was playing I would only get to play one hand (All In)
Most importantly for me it was 3.45 am and I was up for work at 7.30.

OK we all had a chance at 11k (slim for me) but I play one tournie a week, purely for passtime and last nights payout has me freerolling till the Summer.
This attitude will be regarded by many as weak and lacking ambition but Different Strokes..etc
Any thoughts?

Man I used to think u were a great dealmeister after the one u talked me into in May but reading this i'm not so sure considering Teddy said he was willing to forfeit another 2k. well done all the same, not the worst deal for u. the guy u knocked out in 15th was really devastated.