Ireland's employee relations system

Lemlin

Studying Ireland's employee relations system in college this year, I've noticed a manner of things which I think could be changed:

1. Is there really a need for Unions? Has their time not passed? If you ask me, its a long time since unions were needed in this country.

2. With the labour court, labour relations commission and all the other state run agencies, is it not getting to a stage where people do not know the services each provides. Would it not be easier to unite them under one banner?

Just a few ideas I thought I'd throw out into the ball-park.

coolhandluke

Lemlin wrote:

Studying Ireland's employee relations system in college this year, I've noticed a manner of things which I think could be changed:

1. Is there really a need for Unions? Has their time not passed? If you ask me, its a long time since unions were needed in this country.

That's great coming from the college student,i'd wait till you're out in the big bad world before you start posing them questions.

A Dub in Glasgo

Lemlin wrote:

Studying Ireland's employee relations system in college this year, I've noticed a manner of things which I think could be changed:

Have you studied the way employers are exploiting the immigrant workforce?

1. Is there really a need for Unions? Has their time not passed? If you ask me, its a long time since unions were needed in this country.

On what basis do you believe Unions are not needed? Experience?

constitutionus

coolhandluke wrote:

That's great coming from the college student,i'd wait till you're out in the big bad world before you start posing them questions.

AGREED ,ask the lads in GAMMA how redundant unions are. if the last few years have proved anything its that unions are needed now more than ever. the lower end of the market is seriously heading back to the bad old days of the 1913 lockout.
think im exagerating? then tell me how you feel when your boss tells you you have to clock out for a ****

also my job made 98% of us redundant this year, giving us only 2 week notice despite the fact they were saying for months that they were expanding, and then only gave the minimum standard two weeks pay per year in service.

the only people to stay? me and my superior, co incidently the ONLY people who are unionised whom if they DID have to get rid off would have to negotiate with the union which LAST time resulted in six weeks wages for every year worked.

so yeah, i reckon being in a union isnt COMPLEATLY useless

Time Magazine

constitutionus wrote:

the only people to stay? me and my superior, co incidently the ONLY people who are unionised whom if they DID have to get rid off would have to negotiate with the union which LAST time resulted in six weeks wages for every year worked.

And thereby lowering average wages for everyone. Hurrah!

Yes, there's a place for unions, but the state ones in Ireland are far too strong. Since 1913 the wages of the lowest-earners have multiplied. Hell, in the last ten years. A minimum wage of €7.65 for a mature adult worker? Can't complain with that.

Calina

Angry Banana wrote:

Yes, there's a place for unions, but the state ones in Ireland are far too strong. Since 1913 the wages of the lowest-earners have multiplied. Hell, in the last ten years. A minimum wage of €7.65 for a mature adult worker? Can't complain with that.

which equates to around 15K a year income - not a huge amount to live on in a country where the cost of living has also skyrocketed.

Lemlin

coolhandluke wrote:

That's great coming from the college student,i'd wait till you're out in the big bad world before you start posing them questions.

Interesting how you presume that, because I'm a college student, I haven't experienced the big bad world as you pit it. Did you ever take into account that I could be a mature student?

As for examples, you only have to look at how Margaret Heffernan broke the unions in Dunnes. I have worked in a company where there was a strike. I won't name the union but their conduct left a lot to be desired eg. union meetings in a pub which was selected because it was beside the shop steward's house.

Why couldn't a government-run agency, with representatives elected by the workers, replace the unions? They're only interested in increasing their coffers.

Some unions have reserves of more than 20 million yet, when the workers striked where I worked, they received a paltry €15 a day, when they would of made more than €100 from working. How is that fair?

Lemlin

Calina wrote:

which equates to around 15K a year income - not a huge amount to live on in a country where the cost of living has also skyrocketed.

The cost of living has skyrocketed because the Minimum wage was set too high - the fault of the government at the time and the unions.

Boggle

Having seen how some companies can treat their staff then I can testify that we still need unions...

...having said that I do believe that Unions are too money orientated and that their primary concern should be conditions and salary strikes being only under extraordinary conditions.

John R

Lemlin wrote:

Some unions have reserves of more than 20 million yet, when the workers striked where I worked, they received a paltry €15 a day, when they would of made more than €100 from working. How is that fair?

So because one particular union didn't give you the service you demanded you think that all unions should be done away with?

Lemlin wrote:

The cost of living has skyrocketed because the Minimum wage was set too high - the fault of the government at the time and the unions.

So basically you think that those at the bottom of the employment ladder should be paid much less to keep the price of goods/services low so that those with money (including you and your family I'd bet) can afford more.

Angry Banana wrote:

Yes, there's a place for unions, but the state ones in Ireland are far too strong. Since 1913 the wages of the lowest-earners have multiplied. Hell, in the last ten years. A minimum wage of €7.65 for a mature adult worker? Can't complain with that.

Can't live on it either.

FFS there was a thread on boards a while ago with people bemoaning how difficult it is to get by on 40/50/60K a year while here we have suggestions that paying people 15k a year is at the root of our problems.

Lemlin

Originally posted by John R
So because one particular union didn't give you the service you demanded you think that all unions should be done away with?

That's just an example. There are plenty more. Just look at how the unions conducted themselves in the ESB and Irish Ferries disputes. There is no questioning that some trade unionists involved in both disputes were not interested in constructive solutions.

Originally posted by John R
So basically you think that those at the bottom of the employment ladder should be paid much less to keep the price of goods/services low so that those with money (including you and your family I'd bet) can afford more.

I'd prefer if you didn't make assumptions about me or my family, it has nothing to do with this debate. The fact is that inflation is rising because people at the bottom of the ladder are being paid too much. Where else in Europe are McDonalds employees paid €7.65 an hour?

Originally posted by John R
Can't live on it either.

FFS there was a thread on boards a while ago with people bemoaning how difficult it is to get by on 40/50/60K a year while here we have suggestions that paying people 15k a year is at the root of our problems.

Not sure about that. Depends what your own opinion of living is. I manage to live on €180 a week buying my own food and paying my own rent (and before you say it, I do not get a grant or money from parents). Can't see why others couldn't get by on 15k a year.

The fact is though that the price of goods and services is too high because the minimum wage was set too high. Btw, you attributed a quote to me that was Angry Banana's.

John R

Lemlin wrote:

That's just an example. There are plenty more. Just look at how the unions conducted themselves in the ESB and Irish Ferries disputes. There is no questioning that some trade unionists involved in both disputes were not interested in constructive solutions.

That's a matter of opinion but still should the actions of individual unions mean that the whole principal of group representation should be binned. Employers, particularly those with low wage staff have fare too much negotiating power over individuals as it is.

Lemlin wrote:

I'd prefer if you didn't make assumptions about me or my family, it has nothing to do with this debate. The fact is that inflation is rising because people at the bottom of the ladder are being paid too much. Where else in Europe are McDonalds employees paid €7.65 an hour?

The fact is inflation is a constant, the current rate is at the low end of the scale.

The Min Wage in the UK around €7.40 and it in general a cheaper country to live in, as for other countries look up the figures yourself if you think you have a point to make.

Lemlin wrote:

Not sure about that. Depends what your own opinion of living is. I manage to live on €180 a week buying my own food and paying my own rent (and before you say it, I do not get a grant or money from parents). Can't see why others couldn't get by on 15k a year.

Try living on that in Dublin. I won't even mention the idea of supporting a family or other dependents on it. Minimum wage applies to more than just student summer jobs, many people have to live on them for an indefinite period.

Lemlin wrote:

The fact is though that the price of goods and services is too high because the minimum wage was set too high. Btw, you attributed a quote to me that was Angry Banana's.

Is it a fact though? Got any facts or figures to back that up?

The cost of land/housing is a huge factor in the increased cost of living and very few people on Min wage are in any financial shape to contribute to that.

Sorry about the quote, fixed.

constitutionus

Angry Banana wrote:

And thereby lowering average wages for everyone. Hurrah!

Yes, there's a place for unions, but the state ones in Ireland are far too strong. Since 1913 the wages of the lowest-earners have multiplied. Hell, in the last ten years. A minimum wage of €7.65 for a mature adult worker? Can't complain with that.

youve compleatly MISSED the point:mad: the ONLY reason i still have a job is because im unionised and it'd cost em around 40-50k to get rid of me. NOBODIES wage was lowered, they were just made redundant for the minimum cost to the company.I.E 2-5k (and i should point out ,we're the two BEST paid in our section, mainly due to 10yrs plus service)
a company i might point out that is one of the top 50 companies in the county, one of the ONLY irish multinationals i know of, and because im a share holder in it ,a company that was able to give a 100% INCREASE in their dividend payment.
what happened in my company was a BANK OF IRELAND job, ie SACKING 2000 people just to boost their share price. ITS PURE NAKED GREED , with NO long term planning for the future. just the sort of nonsence i expect from some suit who DOESNT even know how to do the job on my level . AND I BRING IN THE MONEY:rolleyes: .
im telling ya middle management is DESTROYING employer / employee relations. ive NO faith in those muppets running my company now and i FULLY intend to get out in about a year or so. or when the place shuts down my section and offer me redundancy, which ever comes first.
BUT YOU CAN BE DAMN SURE OF ONE THING , I AINT GOING FOR 8K:)

ronbyrne2005

Lemlin wrote:

Studying Ireland's employee relations system in college this year, I've noticed a manner of things which I think could be changed:

1. Is there really a need for Unions? Has their time not passed? If you ask me, its a long time since unions were needed in this country.

2. With the labour court, labour relations commission and all the other state run agencies, is it not getting to a stage where people do not know the services each provides. Would it not be easier to unite them under one banner?

Just a few ideas I thought I'd throw out into the ball-park.

theres always a need for unions but they have far too much power in this country. no trade unions in ryanair or the majority of private sector companies.a more flexible labour force has been shown to increase the economic growth prospects of a country but theres less job security but more likely to be jobs as economy is growing more.
theres significant legislation to protect workers at present. unions can keep wages in skilled /semi skilled jobs higher than if there were no unions but if non unionised employees are highly productive they can earn more than unionised ones eg ryanair workers arent unionised and are best paid of any airline.
as for the mechanisms such as labour court and all the different unions ,many people make their careers outta this stuff and theres internal politics in all this organisations/institutions,for example the unions in america have recenlty lost power because a few major unions are arguing with each other and union politics/ideology is ripping them apart.

Calina

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

theres always a need for unions but they have far too much power in this country. no trade unions in ryanair or the majority of private sector companies.a more flexible labour force has been shown to increase the economic growth prospects of a country but theres less job security but more likely to be jobs as economy is growing more.
theres significant legislation to protect workers at present. unions can keep wages in skilled /semi skilled jobs higher than if there were no unions but if non unionised employees are highly productive they can earn more than unionised ones eg ryanair workers arent unionised and are best paid of any airline.
as for the mechanisms such as labour court and all the different unions ,many people make their careers outta this stuff and theres internal politics in all this organisations/institutions,for example the unions in america have recenlty lost power because a few major unions are arguing with each other and union politics/ideology is ripping them apart.

Hmm. Regarding Ryanair - currently their pilots are fighting their way through the courts for union recognition which suggests to me that not all is rosy in that garden. Incidentally, I'd like a source for the statement that Ryanair pays its workers more than any other airline - I strongly doubt it. Please point me to a comparison chart comparing Ryanair's salaries with those of British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa, easyJet and KLM if possible please.

Regarding the industrial relations mechanism - strangely enough, a lot of people make a career out of it. So too do a lot of people out of the justice system, the medical system and the revenue system. Is there something in particular bad about working for industrial harmony?

Time Magazine

constitutionus wrote:

youve compleatly MISSED the point:mad:

No I haven't. I actually analysed it from a macro perspective. As workers' entitlements increase one of two things ultimately happens: lower average wage or unemployment. Generally speaking, in Ireland, it's not unemployment. It's bargaining power. Wages up, employment down. If no employment down, wages down. There are physical constraints on the economy.

the ONLY reason i still have a job is because im unionised and it'd cost em around 40-50k to get rid of me.

And that €40-50k could hire 1.3 industrial-wage workers if put in efficiently.

NOBODIES wage was lowered

1.3 people's wages were, in effect

they were just made redundant for the minimum cost to the company

Whose profits flow into the economy and provide funds for expansion and investment. Maybe a factory with 1.3 workers would be set up.

I.E 2-5k (and i should point out ,we're the two BEST paid in our section, mainly due to 10yrs plus service)

Fair play to you, but it still doesn't effect the macroeconomic outlook of the country. Strong unions do, though.

a company i might point out that is one of the top 50 companies in the county

Mute point.

one of the ONLY irish multinationals i know of

Ditto.

and because im a share holder in it ,a company that was able to give a 100% INCREASE in their dividend payment.

Because of profits, that would rise if they didn't have to pay you off.

what happened in my company was a BANK OF IRELAND job, ie SACKING 2000 people just to boost their share price. ITS PURE NAKED GREED

No they didn't. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) recently opened in Ireland. Competition made you redundant. It will also lower my cost of banking in the medium term.

with NO long term planning for the future.

I actually think it's planning from the Competition Authority, from the banking sector, and from EU regulators that's to play here.

just the sort of nonsence i expect from some suit who DOESNT even know how to do the job on my level.

With a redundancy payment of €40k I can't see you at around low-management in Bank of Ireland? Of course he can't do your job, he does his; which is to minimise costs to offer lower prices in wake of said competition.

AND I BRING IN THE MONEY:rolleyes:

With their capital investment and strategic planning behind you.

im telling ya middle management is DESTROYING employer / employee relations.

Right, let's get rid of mid-management so.

ive NO faith in those muppets running my company now and i FULLY intend to get out in about a year or so. or when the place shuts down my section and offer me redundancy, which ever comes first.

You have to face competition.

BUT YOU CAN BE DAMN SURE OF ONE THING , I AINT GOING FOR 8K:

That's good for you, but the company has to face competition - which is well bloody needed in the sector. I want lower prices for my banking. And if that means forcing the unions down with redundancies of €8k, so be it. Otherwise I'll leave to Bank of Scotland and nobody in your company will have their job.

I've no problems with unions where people are being treated sh*t. And minimum wage ahoy. But competition is competition and redundancy is redundancy.

constitutionus

Angry Banana wrote:

No I haven't. I actually analysed it from a macro perspective. As workers' entitlements increase one of two things ultimately happens: lower average wage or unemployment. Generally speaking, in Ireland, it's not unemployment. It's bargaining power. Wages up, employment down. If no employment down, wages down. There are physical constraints on the economy.

And that €40-50k could hire 1.3 industrial-wage workers if put in efficiently.

1.3 people's wages were, in effect

Whose profits flow into the economy and provide funds for expansion and investment. Maybe a factory with 1.3 workers would be set up.

Fair play to you, but it still doesn't effect the macroeconomic outlook of the country. Strong unions do, though.

Mute point.

Ditto.

Because of profits, that would rise if they didn't have to pay you off.

No they didn't. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) recently opened in Ireland. Competition made you redundant. It will also lower my cost of banking in the medium term.

I actually think it's planning from the Competition Authority, from the banking sector, and from EU regulators that's to play here.

With a redundancy payment of €40k I can't see you at around low-management in Bank of Ireland? Of course he can't do your job, he does his; which is to minimise costs to offer lower prices in wake of said competition.

With their capital investment and strategic planning behind you.

Right, let's get rid of mid-management so.

You have to face competition.

That's good for you, but the company has to face competition - which is well bloody needed in the sector. I want lower prices for my banking. And if that means forcing the unions down with redundancies of €8k, so be it. Otherwise I'll leave to Bank of Scotland and nobody in your company will have their job.

I've no problems with unions where people are being treated sh*t. And minimum wage ahoy. But competition is competition and redundancy is redundancy.

but the point you CONTINUALY miss is IM NOT REDUNDANT , the people who DIDNT join the union ARE.
and THATS the point of this thread, is there a point being in a union.

what you said about competition only COPPERFASTENS the issue. ask yourself if your gonna be made redundant do you want to take the least legal amount you can be offered OR the best that can be negotiated by a union.

ronbyrne2005

Calina wrote:

Regarding the industrial relations mechanism - strangely enough, a lot of people make a career out of it. So too do a lot of people out of the justice system, the medical system and the revenue system. Is there something in particular bad about working for industrial harmony?

my point is that those people would be reluctant to reduce the number of bodies and unions even if it would acheive same result with less people/organisations,as people in any field would be.

Time Magazine

constitutionus wrote:

but the point you CONTINUALY miss is IM NOT REDUNDANT , the people who DIDNT join the union ARE.
and THATS the point of this thread, is there a point being in a union.

what you said about competition only COPPERFASTENS the issue. ask yourself if your gonna be made redundant do you want to take the least legal amount you can be offered OR the best that can be negotiated by a union.

Oh for God's sake read the first bloody line of my response.

Me wrote:

No I haven't [missed the point]. I actually analysed it from a macro perspective.

If higher redundancies occur, it either (or both) reduces the employment opportunities of others or lowers the profit level (and thus level of funds available for investment and tax revenue for the state).

Calina

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

my point is that those people would be reluctant to reduce the number of bodies and unions even if it would acheive same result with less people/organisations,as people in any field would be.

But you're not in a position to say that for definite it's possible.

Answer the question re Ryanair salaries please.

constitutionus

Angry Banana wrote:

Oh for God's sake read the first bloody line of my response.

read it , and it has absolutly feck all to do with this topic.we KNOW business now is all about ****ing people over. THIS thread is about weather YOU should join a union or not

angry banana wrote:

If higher redundancies occur, it either (or both) reduces the employment opportunities of others or lowers the profit level (and thus level of funds available for investment and tax revenue for the state).

so what your telling me is the 2000 people sacked by one of the BIGGEST earners of the economy ie bank of ireland, is all about reinvesting in new branches and NOT about artifically pumping up their share price for investers on a one off basis to look good in your yearly reports.
if you believe that ive got some LOVELY swamp land in florida that might interest you....:rolleyes:

by the way, READ THE FIRST ****ING POST, YOU havent answered it, and as to your first point about workers rights bringing down wages. explain to me how when union activity is at it LOWEST inexcess of a THIRD of the work force is on the minimum wage. surely by your theory wages should be going up? oh thats right THIS IS THE REAL WORLD and the wholesale distortion of the labour market at the lower end has created a defacto slave labour market that are abused on a daily basis. think im wrong? go down to the courts and see

Victor

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

theres significant legislation to protect workers at present.

The problem being there is nobody to actively enforce that legislation.

A business can relatively easily afford representation, individual employees can't.

rsynnott

Lemlin wrote:

Why couldn't a government-run agency, with representatives elected by the workers, replace the unions? They're only interested in increasing their coffers.

They have that in China. Would it amaze you to hear that it doesn't work very well (for the workers, at least)?

Lemlin wrote:

The cost of living has skyrocketed because the Minimum wage was set too high - the fault of the government at the time and the unions.

Dear OPEC. We have lowered our minimum wage. Please half price of oil. Yours etc. Ireland

Lemlin wrote:

I'd prefer if you didn't make assumptions about me or my family, it has nothing to do with this debate. The fact is that inflation is rising because people at the bottom of the ladder are being paid too much.

Is that a fact? Could it have anything to do with, say, the people a good bit up the ladder being paid too much? Could it have anything to do with the crazy property market (not a concern of those on the bottom of the ladder)?

Lemlin wrote:

Not sure about that. Depends what your own opinion of living is. I manage to live on €180 a week buying my own food and paying my own rent (and before you say it, I do not get a grant or money from parents). Can't see why others couldn't get by on 15k a year.

Remember that many of those people have families.