RTE1 and TG4 problems

Scania

This is not a satellite problem, but maybe some of you still know the answer.

Living in a Wicklow glen I receive my signal from the Kippur transmitter and use a UHF arial. My RTE2 and TV3 receptions are perfect. However RTE1 and TG4 are swinging from very bad to poor.

What would be the best set up to get a clear signal on all four stations?

DMC

There is a Terrestrial forum, here

Mayo Exile

He is in the terrestrial forum already me thinks. Kippure uses both VHF and UHF transmissions. RTE 1 and RTE 2 are on VHF Band III Channels E and H respectively while TV3 and TG4 are in UHF Group C/D on channels 62 and 59.

This link has full details for all main transmitters and relays:

http://www.geocities.com/corkradio/tvch.html

You would probably want a VHF aerial and a UHF group C/D aerial feeding feeding into a VHF/UHF combiner for best results. What part of Wicklow are you in? Any installers reading these pages could then advise you.

FREEBBC

use a signal booster:eek:

I presume you are getting ghosting??
Really there isnt a good fix if you are in an isolated valley.
You should be using a VHF aerial horizontally polarised for your Kippure RTE

I'd try Mt Leinster wherever you are too as you never know.

Mayo Exile

You should be using a VHF aerial horizontally polarised for your Kippure RTE

True. This brings up another question. It's a bit of a pain in the proverbials that in the 21st century you still have to go to the expense of having to buy two aerials to properly view tv reception from some of RTE's main transmitters. Do RTE have a schedule to switch the remainder of its main masts over to UHF only output?

Mossy Monk

Mayo Exile wrote:

He is in the terrestrial forum already me thinks

perhaps the thread was moved to here

Ulsterman 1690

Mayo Exile wrote:

True. This brings up another question. It's a bit of a pain in the proverbials that in the 21st century you still have to go to the expense of having to buy two aerials to properly view tv reception from some of RTE's main transmitters. Do RTE have a schedule to switch the remainder of its main masts over to UHF only output?

Most European countries broadcast their TV on a mix of VHF and UHF as do the US, Australia etc

I dont see any reason for RTE to change any transmitters to UHF bar maybe Truskmore (for NI viewers with VHF only sets) and Mt Leinster (To free up Ch I for DAB use) In fact I dont understand why they spend shedloads during the nineties converting most of their relays to UHF when confining it to those using Ch's C, I and J would have been sufficent !

Adding more UHF transmitters is only going to create problems for (in the short term) deflectors and (in the long term) the switchover to DTT

Scania

I am in Glen of the Downs.

I tried a VHF aerial a few years ago, but the reception was hopeless.

I used a booster after the powerbooster for a while, which gave me good RTE1 but hopeless TV3.

watty

They were going to convert to UHF entirely but had political and trade opposition. There is more interference on VHF and some of the VHF TX are very old.
The deflectors
a) Should never have been tolerated
b) Are now inexcusable with BBC/ITV FTA on Satellite.

Ulsterman 1690

watty wrote:

They were going to convert to UHF entirely but had political and trade opposition.

Dunno why the trade should be opposed but politically it sounds rather stupiid forcing most of the population to pay through the nose to get new aerials installed for no obvious benefit Granted theres TV3 and TG4 on UHF but lots of people out there (shock horror) dont speak Gaelic and dont need/want TV3's tabloid drivel

watty wrote:

There is more interference on VHF

From where exactly ? Granted Band 1 is notorious for SpE interference but In Ireland Band 3 is ideal for TV since the only country near enough to cause any significant interference at that frequency range doesnt use Band 3

watty wrote:

and some of the VHF TX are very old..

Surely its just as easy to buy a new Band 3 TX as it is to buy a new UHF TX ?

watty wrote:

The deflectors a) Should never have been tolerated

Why Not for heavens sake ? Why should people living away from the border or Eastern seaboard have been condemed to years of televisual ignorance

watty wrote:

b) Are now inexcusable with BBC/ITV FTA on Satellite.

Id be the first to admit that FTA (and DTT when it gets off the ground) means the days of deflectors (along with the more backward cable operators) are numbered but ITV has only recently gone FTA and Channels 4 and 5 are still only available (oficially) on deflectors in many parts of Ireland so lets not write of deflectors prematurely

watty

The "deflectors" would not have been tolerated any place else. Illegal transmitters, no planning, no quality, Illegal rebroadcasting and then "given the nod" politically afterwards ONLY when it appeared DTT was floundering.

It is in conditions that they must stop when DTT starts.

The fact that for years "offical" MMDS /cable also illegally carried BBC/ITV doesn't make it any more correct.

Ulsterman 1690

At the risk of drifting way OT

watty wrote:

The "deflectors" would not have been tolerated any place else.

Deflectors are or have been widely used in Spain, Italy, Greece, Israel and many other countries

watty wrote:

Illegal transmitters, no planning, Illegal rebroadcasting

Only because the government refused to licence them claiming (wrongly) that there werent enough frequencies

watty wrote:

no quality,

As opposed to say Chorus ?
Ever heard the old saying about half a loaf being better than none ? In many parts of Ireland before the days of Astra 2D it was deflectors or nothing !

watty wrote:

and then "given the nod" politically afterwards ONLY when it appeared DTT was floundering.

Deflector licencing was first seriously considered in Ireland in 1997 well before DTT was on the agenda. The fact that it took several years after that for licences to be issued was down mainly to administrative inertia

I

watty wrote:

It is in conditions that they must stop when DTT starts.

So then whats the problem ??

Mayo Exile

I dont see any reason for RTE to change any transmitters to UHF

Not totally against a mix of VHF/UHF transmissions. If that's the best way of doing it then that's ok. Was just thinking of the cost to those that had to buy two aerials. In fact, actually preferred it when Castlebar was on VHF because it meant we could keep the aerial in the loft, saving it from deterioration due to outside exposure. Still have it. Bought in 1978, as good as new! Maybe DAB broadcasts will give it a new lease of life!

watty

You can only fit 2 channels on VHF.

It is unfair that in western half where unlike UHF only South Dublin that is all cable anyway, two aerials are needed to get RTE1/2 (VHF) and TG4 (UHF).

All the the Irish channels can fit on UHF.

The Band III better used for Mobile Radio and possibly DAB as the mobile flutter in a car is MUCH less than on UHF. I use 2 way radio nearly daily on VHF and UHF and even with a better signal the UHF flutter is worse.

OTOH, for fixed use, UHF is superior to VHF. It is easier to have a higher gain (farther from TX) or more narrow beam (reduce ghosts). Also near Shannon the VHF is terrible from Maghera or Mullaghanish with aircraft flutter. If you can get Woodcock hill then it is unaffected.

BTW Woodcock is to be upgraded from "rebroadcasting Maghera" (Transposer in RTE terms) to a Transmitter fed direct (Transmitter in RTE terms).

Same power but better pictures.

Foggy43

Watty!
Will this be good news that Woodcock Hill is being upgraded from a relay. No dates yet I suppose.

I understand how a relay (or transponder, the term RTE prefer to use) works but how does the signal get to a transmitter?

watty

It can use a microwave link or a private dedicated cable or a private kind of very high "broadband style" cable connection. Cable can be coax or fibre.

Foggy43

Watty!
Thankyou for the info!

Ulsterman 1690

If a transmitter is being fed from a microwave link surely it is still a "relay" albeit maybe one with a (possibly) better quality feed

It is unfair that in western half where unlike UHF only South Dublin that is all cable anyway, two aerials are needed to get RTE1/2 (VHF) and TG4 (UHF).

As long as both VHF and UHF signals are reasonably strong it is hardly an onerous financial burden expecting new houses to have two aerials (just like they do on the continent) far more onerous though is requiring all existing households to replace their VHF aerials for UHF to recieve an existing service).

The Band III better used for Mobile Radio and possibly DAB as the mobile flutter in a car is MUCH less than on UHF. I use 2 way radio nearly daily on VHF and UHF and even with a better signal the UHF flutter is worse.

Surely there is enough room for mobile radio
1) Between bands 1 and 2
2) between 156 MHz and 174 MHz
3) Above 230 MHz
Broadcast bands (VHF or UHF) shouldnt be used for mobile radio but if its absolutely necessary then Band 1 is free in Ireland (apart from the 50 MHz amateur bit) In the UK the development of FM radio was delayed for years on end because the Authorities allocated most of the BROADCAST band to two way radio. :mad: Then they set aside a large chunk of Band 3 for two way radio so that Channel 5 couldnt fill in the gaps in their UHF coverage :rolleyes:

watty

No. Huge difference in quality between Microwave feed and rebroadcast. Unless everythink I learnt at BBC Evesham was lies

All those other bands all used up.

best is 70MHz to 200MHz for mobile.


C5 was supposed to be Digital only. Digital wasn't ready. There was NEVER any suggestion of putting FIVE on Band III.

A good UHF aerial is cheaper than a good VHF and easier to install.

Coverage should be improved so as more viewers can use Loft or set-top UHF. The percentage outside Dublin who can is MUCH lower than UK.

A set top UHF only aerial FAR more effective than a VHF rabbit's Ears.

Ulsterman 1690

All those other bands all used up

Not the impression I get when I tune through em with a scanner

C5 was supposed to be Digital only. Digital wasn't ready. There was NEVER any suggestion of putting FIVE on Band III.

When C5 was first concieved (late 1988) there was no digital TV At one stage (1995-6) there was a proposal to make it a "digital only" service. Unfortunately the licence had already been awarded and the company insisted on having an analouge service

watty

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Not the impression I get when I tune through em with a scanner

A common misconception.

Mobile Radio on VHF
1) Limited range
2) Might not be any repeater base station within range
3) They might not be talking

I've a reverse ax to grind. I'd personally like more bits of spectrum for various activities, as would all the other spectrum users. But it is in't there to have.

Hence some allocations overloaded with different devices on same frequency.

Some examples
174 MHz Radio Mic
433 MHz remotes, video sender back channel and cordless sensors, Amateur Radio.
860 ish MHZ, walky talkies, wireless barcode scanners, radio mics
2.4GHz Amatuer Radio, baby alarms, Wifi, analog wireless camera, Digital wireless camera, video senders etc.. all overlap

Ch36 (VCR modulators ) is an Astronomy channel, not a TV channel
2.4

Go look at Comreg's site www.comreg.ie

Ulsterman 1690

watty wrote:

They might not be talking

Isint that why TRUNKED PMR and CTCSS was invented except anywhere Ive ever been with a scanner nobody seems to use it ???

watty wrote:

Hence some allocations overloaded with different devices on same frequency.

Sometimes it makes sense to share bands when the nature of the respective services means interference is unlikely. During the 1980's France had an ingenious (for the time) mobile phone system which used Band 3 TV frequencies although it was designed to avoid Channels in use locally

watty wrote:

433 MHz remotes, video sender back channel and cordless sensors, Amateur Radio.

Dont forget those central locking remote control widgets. I agree 433 was a silly place to put them

watty wrote:

860 ish MHZ, walky talkies, wireless barcode scanners, radio mics

I thought walkie talkies used either 49 MHz (not a great freq either) or 446 MHz ?

watty wrote:

2.4GHz Amatuer Radio, baby alarms, Wifi, analog wireless camera, Digital wireless camera, video senders etc.. all overlap

Dont forget microwave ovens and Bluetooth !!! 2.4 GHz is jam packed alright (although I thought Amateurs had a bit of it to themselves ?) never heard of baby alarms using it though

watty wrote:

Ch36 (VCR modulators ) is an Astronomy channel, not a TV channel

I thought it was Ch 38

watty wrote:

Go look at Comreg's site www.comreg.ie

Im more a fan of ComWRECK :rolleyes:

Antenna

watty wrote:

The "deflectors" would not have been tolerated any place else. Illegal transmitters, no planning

I would expect most of these were put up without planning permission alright, but they'd usually be fairly 'low profile' installations and located well away from residential areas. Would you also condemn the many members of the amateur radio community who put up masts and large antenna without planning permission on their properties ?

watty

Actually you can have 10ft of mast on your chimney/roof without planning permission.

The Planning I was referring to was not masts, but use of transmitting frequencies etc.

Amatuers (Wireless Experimenters) have to have a licence and meet some fairly draconian condtions (really with 1920s P&T monopolies in mind)

Many masts used by Amateurs are portable or telescopic and are rated as temporary structures, which don't actually require planning permission. I Know someone selling a three section 90ft mast, and in today's climate that definately needs planning permission.

The masts of the Deflectors are not IMO an issue as these are often not obtursive nor likely to fall on anyone other than a sheep.

watty

Ulsterman1690 wrote:

Isint that why TRUNKED PMR and CTCSS was invented ..

There is no trunked radio ala Tetra here yet. Comming though. The garda use the mobile phone!

CTCSS or PL tone is a sel calling system. To listen to everything simply turn it off or not have it. Works a charm to hear all the pmr446 in the area. It only inhibts the squelch using a tone below 250Hz. The audio is not encrypted or scrambled.

There are now a second series of PMR with 6km alleged range, around the same frequency (or actually the same ) as Wireless barcode readers etc (864MHZ?). Argos was selling them last time I checked.

The 27MHz and 49MHz walkie talkes about 100ft. The PMR446 are not bad for Ethernet cable checking and aerial / dish work. I have a pair with vox, very handy... ("Mark that cable "five" if all the lights are green and in the right order Billy".).


Amateurs do have a bit of spectrum below 2.4 (2.3GHz ..2.4)160W allowed, also 2.4 to 2.45GHz 25W allowed. But encrypted data on ANY Amateur frequency and TV is forbidden absolutely on pain of horrible stuff on 2.3 .. 2.45GHz. Secondary user, so no Interference to other services and must accept interference. It's all mostly on Comreg site, except the TV bit which they tell people personally.

No amateur transmission can carry 3rd party message or 3rd party data or be encrypted or be commercial. Amateur Radio is more limited than PMR446 for talking and more limited than WiFi for data in UK & Ireland.

Look for comreg pdf 02/77R5

Yes I forgot about the 433 car alarms and remotes. Daft place indeed.

Ulsterman 1690

Amatuers (Wireless Experimenters) have to have a licence and meet some fairly draconian condtions (really with 1920s P&T monopolies in mind)

Actually Im told that in Ireland the regulations are so badly thought out that its virtually impossible to be in 100% compliance.

For instance (not sure if this still is the case but it certainly was onetime) that one is supposed to inform the authorities of all equiment in your possesion (including serial number) BEFORE they acquire it :eek: