Weekend road crashes claim seven lives

dts

From:ireland.com
Monday, 23rd January, 2006
The total number killed on Irish roads over the weekend has risen to seven following the deaths of four people in the past 12 hours.
Two people died when a car crashed in Co Galway just before midnight last night.
The man (20) and a woman (18) died in the crash near Carraroe in Connemara; it is understood their vehicle hit a wall.
Gardaí in Wicklow are investigating a crash in which a man (19) was killed when the car he was travelling in hit a ditch shortly after midnight at Ballinapark, Ashford, Co Wicklow.
Elsewhere, gardaí are investigating a fatal incident in Co Louth when a man (29) died after his car went through the railings and into the river at the Bridge of Peace, Drogheda, at around 3am today.
The man died after he was taken to Our Lady of Lourdes hospital in the town.
Three people were killed in crashes on Saturday.
James Doheny (21) was killed when the car he was driving was involved in a three-car crash near Urlingford, Co Kilkenny, at around 1.45am. Three others were removed to Cashel hospital, where two are reported to be seriously injured.
Two men (36 and 34) died in Swinford, Co Mayo, when their car struck a tree just before 2am.
The latest deaths bring to 27 the number killed on the roads this year. Last year, 399 people died in the Republic, the highest toll since 2001.



Never mind public transport this is a s good a reason as you need to improve the quality of the roads.

MrPudding

I think it is actually 9 or 10.

MrP

Aidan1

this is a s good a reason as you need to improve the quality of the roads

Have a look at the times these accidents occurred. They all occurred late at night, and most were single vehicle accidents. Given that far larger volumes of traffic use all of these roads by day, and no accidents were reported, I think its safe to rule out the state of the road as a major contributary factor in these accidents.

It does point up the fact that speed checks on major interurban routes won't have a huge effect on reducing road deaths either, but thats a different story*.

*Thats not to say that those speed checks shouldn't exist of course

seamus

And not one of them in Dublin....As Aidan1 says, it just highlights the futility of speedchecks/checkpoints on the major routes.

johnnyrotten

I wonder how many were over the limit!

Capt'n Midnight

johnnyrotten wrote:

I wonder how many were over the limit!

speed or alcohol ?

They could do a feature on the news - "this day last year" - where they revisit stories and report what the cause was determined to be, not just for car accidents but for all those stories that dissapeared from the headlines after a week or so. Far too many "went out of control" stories for my liking.

Weren't there some killed across the boarder too ?

dts

Do you not think that the lack of cats eyes, road markings, bad bends, street lighting ect have alot to do with the road deaths at night?

seamus

dts wrote:

Do you not think that the lack of cats eyes, road markings, bad bends, street lighting ect have alot to do with the road deaths at night?

I'm not going to argue that lack of these things can make navigation more difficult, but they are by no means a cause of the accident. If the accident was caused by an inability to navigate with nothing but your headlights, then it's caused by driver error and/or carelessness. Ultimately it boils down to driving inappropriately for the given conditions.

dts

I would have to disagree. The pot holes and bad road surfaces along with the dirt from farm vehicles and poor drainage are all contributing factors. If you are on a 100kmh road and on the bend there is a pot hole and you hit it due to not being able to see it then that is not driver error.
I would however agree that alot of the early hour drivers may well be under the influence and this should be made public so as to name and shame and stop other people doing such a stupid thing.

MorningStar

seamus wrote:

And not one of them in Dublin....As Aidan1 says, it just highlights the futility of speedchecks/checkpoints on the major routes.

Not really the belief is you catch the people who speed all the time on the main roads. As time goes on such people slow down in all their drving either due to points or just a general felling of doing wrog.

Unfortunately it does not really consider cultural traits very strong in Ireland the main one being I am doing nothing wrong unless I am caught and they prove it.

Actually taking responsibility for your own actions in Ireland is seen as being some kind of idiot.

Look at this.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054877790

My own mother was caugh by the speed camera 3 times in a row on 3 Sundays in a row and didn't know what the flash was about until later. AS her name was not spelt right she ignored the letters so it goes to 12 points. Still addressed wrong so she can get away with it. I am disgusted at her behavior and my dad used to do the same.

It really is a hangup from colonial days, I find older people are far less tolerant of rules than younger people. You have younger people breaking rules and not really bother but aware but the older generation ignore the rules and are not even aware of the dangers as they managed so far without them.

seamus

dts wrote:

I would have to disagree. The pot holes and bad road surfaces along with the dirt from farm vehicles and poor drainage are all contributing factors. If you are on a 100kmh road and on the bend there is a pot hole and you hit it due to not being able to see it then that is not driver error.
I would however agree that alot of the early hour drivers may well be under the influence and this should be made public so as to name and shame and stop other people doing such a stupid thing.

In fairness I have yet to hit a pothole on a corner (even at 100km/h in daylight) that made me lose control of the vehicle. Ultimately most such night-time accidents could have been avoided if one of three things were changed: Drop your speed; Don't Drink; Don't get in the vehicle at all if you're not capable.

Morningstar - I agree completely. Outside of driving laws, there has always been a culture of "whatever I can get away with, I will" in this country, though it's very slowly ebbing out.

Keedowah

I know where one of those accidents occured - Carraroe in Galway. The road the accident happened on has no markings or cats eyes - the roads in the general area is quite bendy and there are little/no cats eyes. I am not saying that this is to blame for the accident - but there is a serious lack of attention to the roads in that side of the country. (Not to say that there isn't in the rest of the country too!)

Aidan1

If you are on a 100kmh road and on the bend there is a pot hole and you hit it due to not being able to see it then that is not driver error.

Yes it is. You would have been driving too quickly for the prevailing conditions at the time. 100km/h is a limit, not a target.

I completely agree that the roads are still very poor in many parts of the country, but the cases outlined above are classic examples. All of these roads are travelled by people day and night, 7 days a week, yet the fatal accidents occur on a Saturday evening, with the majority of drivers being relatively young and male. That is not down to the roads, the Minister for Justice, Transport, or the Guards. Its down to the drivers. Simple as that.

MorningStar

Aidan1 wrote:

That is not down to the roads, the Minister for Justice, Transport, or the Guards. Its down to the drivers. Simple as that.

It may be down to the driver but the situation has been set up by the other people you mention. Lack of enforcement means people don't think they will be caught so blame the gaurds. Councilers are coming out suggesting drink driving should be allowed meaning the view of drink driving is lestened. The minister is not making the gaurds enforce road rules therefore creating a more lax environment.

Talk to somebody from a rual background and most don't see drink driving as bad. That attetude is the real killer and everybody in authority allows it and even recommend it.

I am all for take responsibility for your actions but if a 20 year old is being told byt his community drink and driving is fine, driving at night at speed is safe etc...

There should be a government levy put on rural drivers that should be used to reduce insurance in Dublin seeing as it is one of the safest for death due to car.

Aidan1

Talk to somebody from a rual background and most don't see drink driving as bad

I am from a rural background. Because the consequences of being caught are so serious, it has becaome much more rare where I'm from. Enforcement appears to be a probloem in sme areas however.

'Other people' do not get into a car outside a nightclub at 3 in the morning after 8 pints and try and drive home*, individuals do. I know its facilitated by society in general, and driven by the dispersion of population (particularly in the West), but at the end of the day, the individual is responsible. Thats how the legal system works (or is supposed to), for a start.

*I'm not suggesting that this occurred in any of the occasions mentioned in the OP.

dts

There should be a government levy put on rural drivers that should be used to reduce insurance in Dublin seeing as it is one of the safest for death due to car.[/QUOTE]

There may be less deaths in Dublin but there are far more crashes. The only difference is the speed is reduced due to the roads used so they are not fatal. Also as Dublin gets all the good roads they are the ones who should get the levy.

Bee

MorningStar wrote:

Not really the belief is you catch the people who speed all the time on the main roads. As time goes on such people slow down in all their drving either due to points or just a general felling of doing wrog.

You have said it!

It's only a belief; and it has been a total failure in doing anything what so ever in reducing road fatalities

Use of Garda Revenue Collecting Traps on safe motorways/roads is a disgrace whilst the carnage at accident black spots increases. Never mind the failure to increase Garda man power and licensing test examiners.

Of course the roads that the majority of these accidents happen on are unlit poorly maintained back roads. The polithicko's don't get the picture in the paper for having these brought up to a decent standard they are too busy posing at the new safe motorways when they open them in a blaze of publicity.Coupled with the Gardai taking the easy route and clocking up a few statistics at safe roads that make them selves look good for "law enforcement!

The FF/PD's have totally failed in their duty to the public to bring in the necessary laws and have them enforced in the correct manner to reduce road kills.

Will we ever see Garda cars parked outside country pubs at weekends with speed traps at dangerous black spots? Not whilst there are so many publicans in the dail and their friends dropping some "sponsorship" money at the Galway races!!!!!!!!!!

Bee

Zaph0d

After a single vehicle fatal accident, is the corpse tested for alcohol/drugs?

Aidan1, how do people get home from rural, isolated pubs? Would you say that most cars driven home are by designated drivers?

murphaph

The roads are substandard but most/all of these accidents are caused by driver error in the main. I was on a bus from Edinburgh to Glasgow a few months ago, last bus on a Sunday night (about 1am) and we were travelling along a fairly quiet M8 on a perfectly straight stretch. Next thing a focus begins to overtake in lane 3, right beside my window the car just turned into the central barrier and flipped, rolling over twice. Sparks fcukin everywhere. The two guys were alive but the driver was p!ssing blood from a leg wound. It was a total lack of concentration as he changed the radio (that's what he told us anyway).

Aidan1

Aidan1, how do people get home from rural, isolated pubs? Would you say that most cars driven home are by designated drivers?

Couldn't give an exact figure, but in the area I'm from, there are few enough 'isolatated' pubs - most are in villages or towns, hence a lot of people walk. In those pubs that are isolated, there is a good 'tradition' of designated drivers, but there are also a sizeable number who do risk it every now and then. I was in one of those on Christmas Eve, and while there were quite a few cars left outside it overnight, there were also a couple of people drove home who probably shouldn't have.

jman0

Thing is about those catseyes is that they are invariably positioned pretty much exactly the place on the road where i cycle (pedal cycle) which creates a fairly serious hazard for me. Do i attempt to cycle a tight-rope (the narrow gap between the catseyes and the road edge) or go into the lane (cycling on the right hand side of the cateyes) where i have to trust that people commandeering their metal boxes won't run over me thru recklessness/inattentiveness or because they don't like a cyclist using "their road".

bungeecork

Does anyone know where road death statistic (say, per kilometer of road) are available for EU countries? On the weekend someone mouthed off about Sweeden being a bigger country but having only 49 road deaths when Ireland had hundreds last year. Where could I verify something like that?

D'Peoples Voice

Bee wrote:

Of course the roads that the majority of these accidents happen on are unlit poorly maintained back roads.
The FF/PD's have totally failed in their duty to the public to bring in the necessary laws and have them enforced in the correct manner to reduce road kills.

Where I'm originally from, people PURPOSELY take these unlit poorly maintained back roads to reduce the risk of being caught by a garda checkpoint, because the checkpoints are usually on the main roads!.

If you had a really perverse sense of humour, you could claim that garda checkpoints are killing these people by forcing them onto backroads. Reminds me of the garda cars chasing joyriders being accused of killing them if they chase them and the scumbags crash!

Zaph0d

bungeecork wrote:

Does anyone know where road death statistic (say, per kilometer of road) are available for EU countries? On the weekend someone mouthed off about Sweeden being a bigger country but having only 49 road deaths when Ireland had hundreds last year. Where could I verify something like that?

There were 480 road deaths in 2004 in Sweden according to the EU
http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/care/statistics/series/fatal1991_actual/index_en.htm
Death rates are usually calculated against population or against total number of cars or against total number of km travelled by all cars in a year.

Ireland's fatal accident rate in 2004 was 89 per million of population. EU average was 95/million and Sweden had 54/million. The Dutch and the Brits have similar rates. Clearly there is no reason we should not be able to reduce to this level and save 160 lives annually. No reason other than that nobody cares very much.

The Swedes have had random breath testing for nearly 30 years. We have a system where you're allowed to drive drunk if you can say a local policeman's name. We've had a dysfunctional driver testing service for the last 30 years so that most Irish people couldn't drive safely even if the laws were enforced. We cannot fix the driver education system yet we can introduce an NCT system that operates smoothly and at no cost to the state which has hardly any effect on road fatalities. We can't find a few million to reform driver testing yet we can find 20 billion to spend on motorways.

gurramok

An article from http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/7243525?view=Eircomnet says that as much as 25% of road deaths are attributed to non-nationals and drink driving is a big factor in those hence a launch of a safety intiative by the NSC to stop road deaths climbing even further!

bungeecork

Thanks Zaph0d (post 24).

Holy crap - over 43,000 Europeans died in road acidents in 2004.

That's more than all the civilians killed by the Allies and Insurgents in Iraq since 9/11 (source)

That's like all of Waterford City wiped out in 1 year, just in Europe, just in road accidents.

:eek:

bigQ

It’s all well and good for government and over paid road safety authorities to be preaching about not drink driving, using designated drivers and using public transport, but do they realise that this is just not practical and has not worked since they started raving about it. When they come out of their local establishment they can hop into their chauffer driven limo or pay a few quid to bring them the couple of miles home.
Consider the thousands of young people around the country that live a few miles outside the small towns which are probably another 25 miles outside a city or large town. When these people want to get home at 2:30am they might be lucky to share a taxi to the small town, if they find a driver willing to bring them that far. They are then left with a dilemma of how to get the next four or five miles home. It is obvious if they have the choice of walking or driving they will pick the latter.
I am not condoning drink driving, but as yet there is no alternative for thousands of people around the country. Each region is different and this problem needs to be looked into at a regional level and cannot be solved by people sitting in offices in Dublin with taxis, bus’ and luas’ outside there door.

MorningStar

bigQ wrote:

It’s all well and good for government and over paid road safety authorities to be preaching about not drink driving, using designated drivers and using public transport, but do they realise that this is just not practical etc...

Not practical! The not practical bit is going to a night club 25 miles away with no other means to travel but drink driving or just driving at speed. It is not a right to go partying or drive. It is a privilage and something you can't do if it requires you to drink and drive.
You may not condone the behaviour but you accept it. THis is the rural attitude that is actually causing the problem. THe biggest killer on the roads is speed and youth. THe time and location is late and rural. I can see having regions responsible for themseleves but to an extent they already are. Many young people live at home so the parents know that there children are do it and the pubs/nightclubs are also responsible. This is community based policing yet it isn't happening. I don't see local goverenment (lots of publicans) doing anything. THis is a case where the government as a whole should inforce stricter laws and enforcement. Make pubs responsible for their customers like in the US.

Zaph0d

bigQ wrote:

Consider the thousands of young people around the country that live a few miles outside the small towns which are probably another 25 miles outside a city or large town. When these people want to get home at 2:30am they might be lucky to share a taxi to the small town, if they find a driver willing to bring them that far. They are then left with a dilemma of how to get the next four or five miles home. It is obvious if they have the choice of walking or driving they will pick the latter.

It's a reason to encourage people to live in small towns rather than 4 or 5 miles outside.

Mucco

Do people not think that the accident statistics for the few months after penalty points were introduced show that road safety is to do with drivers' attitude?
Drivers choose not to drive safely because they think the accident won't happen to them. It's the childish 'indestructible' syndrome. Maybe some hard education is needed, eg about 130,000 people have been injured on our roads since 1995 (NRA report 2004).

bigQ

It's a reason to encourage people to live in small towns rather than 4 or 5 miles outside.

I agree. You have to wonder how planners let houses be built in these areas without adequate infrastructure. But thats probably a whole other matter.

It is a privilage and something you can't do if it requires you to drink and drive.

Do you think city folk should only be allowed to have these privilages?

THis is the rural attitude that is actually causing the problem

True, but pointing out the obvious dangers is not solving the problem. Peoples attitudes are changing but that does not make it any easier for them to get home safely.

Make pubs responsible for their customers

There are few responsible pubs that provide transport home for customers but thay are few and far between. You'd think it would be in a business interest to provide this service. Maybe making it law would help, it would certainly be better than doing nothing about the problem!

Zaph0d

Mucco wrote:

Do people not think that the accident statistics for the few months after penalty points were introduced show that road safety is to do with drivers' attitude?
Drivers choose not to drive safely because they think the accident won't happen to them. It's the childish 'indestructible' syndrome. Maybe some hard education is needed, eg about 130,000 people have been injured on our roads since 1995 (NRA report 2004).

People chose to drive safely after the introduction of penalty points because they thought their chances of being caught had increased.

LFCFan

Zaph0d wrote:

People chose to drive safely after the introduction of penalty points because they thought their chances of being caught had increased.

Exactly. Driver behaviour is almost always directly influenced by their perception of how easy it is to get caught. If there was a massive increase in Garda visibility all over the country and not just on the major routes and if there was a massive increase in the amount of people being caught drink driving, maybe then attitudes would change. In the 7 years I've been driving up and down to Limerick I've seen the Gardai about 10 times if even. In my 1 drive from Holyhead to Liverpool I encountered 7 Police patrols there and 5 on the way back. Until the Government actually start to give a toss, road deaths will continue to stay high.

MrPudding

The example they keep bringing up is Sweden. I can't remember the figures exactly but it goes something like this:

Number of breath tests in Ireland last year: 10K
Number of breath tests in Sweden last year: 1.5million.

That is a fairly large difference and you have to think if there was anything near the number of Swedish breath test being carried out here drink driving numbers would fall.

Of course initially it would be bad. Drink driving figures would rocket. Critics would possibly attempt to use this to say it is not working. Whereas sensible people will realise the number will rise dramatically initially as detection increases. Once people realise they will get caught and once serial drink drivers get convicted and banned the numbers of people caught should drop. I would think the road death figures woudl also drop.

I would not be keen on the blood alcohol level being reduced. I just want to see the current level being enforced.

MrP

seamus

MrPudding, that's essentially the ideal solution.

I don't see any Government in the next 10 years initiating such a clampdown, since the bulk of our Government are in the age group with the highest incidence of serial drink-driving.

I would say the pressure from the usual "old boys" lobby, the farmers and the publicans would also scare any Government from implementing such a change.

Given the prevelance of this problem in Ireland, we would also need a special "drink-driving only" court to deal with the convictions in the first 12-18 months of such a scheme. I could see thousands, if not hundred of thousands, of drink-driving convictions arising if a clampdown was enforced.

bigQ

I don't have any figures, but it seems that the number of pedestrians being killed or injured on or roads is on the increase, alot in the early hours of the morning. This seems to indicate that more people are leaving the car at home but are still likely to get hurt, not necessarily by a drink drivers.
If we reduce the number of deaths due to drink driving it may just increase the deaths due to drink walking.

Julesie

bigQ wrote:

If we reduce the number of deaths due to drink driving it may just increase the deaths due to drink walking.

I really dont see that being the case, I would be confident that if we reduced the culture which silently condones drink driving we would see a significant reduction in road deaths without a compensating rise in pedestrian casualties

There was an article in the paper a few weeks ago when the death toll had hit 50 people for the year. In the piece they listed each person that died and the location of the 'accident'. Only 1 of those deaths took place in Dublin. With a country that has such a population skew towards the capital that is a mind boggling number.

Once the legislation to introduce random breath tests has being finalised and is available to the gardai, I would be in favour of them camping themselves outside pub carparks on friday/saturday nights. Sure some people will find ways around it but the point is that for the average joe soap who still thinks twice about leaving the car at home, it will act as a suitable deterrent.

I wouldnt be quite as confident about the success rate of speed checks as these will tend to be on the main roads which is not where the majority of these late night crashes take place. Having said that a beefed up level of Garda visibility certainly wouldnt cause an increase in the death toll and the prospect of meeting a speed check may well cause drivers to watch their speed.

If both these measures were introduced in a concerted and well organised way there is no reason why we could not spare over 100 families the pain and torment of losing a loved one to a road traffic accident.

My €0.02

Jules