Two Cash Game Hands

cardshark202

Hand 1: €1-€2 PL Holdem Cash Game in the S.E.
Stacksizes: Me: €700ish Villian: €600ish

I limp utg with QQ. Several limpers until villian in LP who raises to €10. Button (sitting on a €1k+ stack) calls. I re-pot it to €80. Villian is a very LAG player and his raising range is very wide. He has shown a lot of bluffs and made a few crazy bets. Villian calls €80 as does button. Flop is A56 rainbow. I lead for €175. Villian stares at me for a few seconds and calls. Button folds. Turn is a Ten. My read on villian preflop was a medium PP and I'm still sure he doesn't have an Ace. I checked to villian who goes all in for his final €370 or so. Call or fold? Also, hows my flop play in this situation?

Hand 2: €1-€1 PL Omaha Cash Game in the Fitz.
Stacksizes: Me: €400 Villian: €450

The table is 7-handed. The table limps to me in the CO and I make it €5 with KdQd4c7c. Its called around to villian to my right who makes it €30. I call, button calls and BB calls. Flop is Jd7s4s. Bb checks. I know villian has AA in this spot. Villian bets €75. Villian is also the type of player who won't fold AA on this flop regardless of bet size. I re-raise all in and the button and BB fold to villian who calls. My bottom two hold up as villian had AAQT with QTspades. Whats your thoughts on this play?

PS: My call preflop was a bit loose I know but I knew I could stack villian if I hit the flop.

RoundTower

cardshark202 wrote:

Hand 2: €1-€1 PL Omaha Cash Game in the Fitz.
Stacksizes: Me: €400 Villian: €450

The table is 7-handed. The table limps to me in the CO and I make it €5 with KdQd4c7c. Its called around to villian to my right who makes it €30. I call, button calls and BB calls. Flop is Jd7s4s. Bb checks. I know villian has AA in this spot. Villian bets €75. Villian is also the type of player who won't fold AA on this flop regardless of bet size. I re-raise all in and the button and BB fold to villian who calls. My bottom two hold up as villian had AAQT with QTspades. Whats your thoughts on this play?

PS: My call preflop was a bit loose I know but I knew I could stack villian if I hit the flop.

I can't think who this was, I don't think I was in the game at this stage. Even if you're certain he has AA and won't fold (and there aren't many players like this) this play is marginal because there are two players who could easily be trapping one of you. FWIW you're not in great shape against AA with the flush draw.

In the first hand I fold for the €370, once again you need a total maniac to make calling correct.

rrtt

dont no much about pot limit holdem but in hand 2, I fold this hand pre flop every time. This is the type of hand which gets you trapped. Risking your entire stack with bottom 2 pair on a flop like this is suicidal.

RoundTower

rrtt wrote:

dont no much about pot limit holdem but in hand 2, I fold this hand pre flop every time. This is the type of hand which gets you trapped. Risking your entire stack with bottom 2 pair on a flop like this is suicidal.

Yes this is a crap starting hand, not to be played before about 4 am. It's not that important which hands you fold when you all have 500 BB though.

NickyOD

cardshark202 wrote:

Hand 1: €1-€2 PL Holdem Cash Game in the S.E.
Stacksizes: Me: €700ish Villian: €600ish

I limp utg with QQ. Several limpers until villian in LP who raises to €10. Button (sitting on a €1k+ stack) calls. I re-pot it to €80. Villian is a very LAG player and his raising range is very wide. He has shown a lot of bluffs and made a few crazy bets. Villian calls €80 as does button. Flop is A56 rainbow. I lead for €175. Villian stares at me for a few seconds and calls. Button folds. Turn is a Ten. My read on villian preflop was a medium PP and I'm still sure he doesn't have an Ace. I checked to villian who goes all in for his final €370 or so. Call or fold? Also, hows my flop play in this situation?

Hand 2: €1-€1 PL Omaha Cash Game in the Fitz.
Stacksizes: Me: €400 Villian: €450

The table is 7-handed. The table limps to me in the CO and I make it €5 with KdQd4c7c. Its called around to villian to my right who makes it €30. I call, button calls and BB calls. Flop is Jd7s4s. Bb checks. I know villian has AA in this spot. Villian bets €75. Villian is also the type of player who won't fold AA on this flop regardless of bet size. I re-raise all in and the button and BB fold to villian who calls. My bottom two hold up as villian had AAQT with QTspades. Whats your thoughts on this play?

PS: My call preflop was a bit loose I know but I knew I could stack villian if I hit the flop.

Hand 1: If you were sure he didn't have an ace there's no reason to fold.
I wouldn't normally reraise preflop with queens in a very loose cash game like in the SE but since you got him HU I can't argue with it. I'm tempted to take a guess at who the villain is. You don't have to bet the pot on the flop. I'm assuming if you had a big ace in this situation you'd bet less and I wouldn't underestimate the villain knowing this too. You should probably call. He's hardly pushing with 3 tens here.

Hand 2: The preflop raise makes no sense to me. It's not co-ordinated enough a hand to justify it. Shorthanded first into the pot I might raise with these types of hands in a tightish game, but this is not the place to inflate pots with mediocre holdings. You got very lucky with this hand. The last time I reraised preflop in a round of each game my table image was very tight. I had QQJT double suited and flopped top set with an up and downer. Someone did exactly what your did, put me on aces, reraised me with 2 pair and got creamed.

fuzzbox

RoundTower wrote:

Yes this is a crap starting hand, not to be played before about 4 am. It's not that important which hands you fold when you all have 500 BB though.

It sure is important - if you are the type to go to the felt for 500BB with bottom two pair !

fuzzbox

The first hand is a fold, but I bet less on the flop.

I also dont like limp-reraising with anything when so deep. Most especially with QQ, because its pretty tough to play oop, on a whole lot of flops, against a LAG who has a good idea of what you have.

cardshark202

Hand 1, I bet €175 into a pot of about €270 on the flop. i think limp re-raising against a LAG opponent is definately a more advantageous play than limp-calling. I was pretty sure villian didn't have an ace but a set was a real possibility. Also, I felt TT was a real possibility. It was also possible that he had 77,88, 99, JJ and maybe even a set of sixes but against this range I felt I had to call. I checked to him on the turn to induce the push because I knew that was his only move in that spot. I thought for about 5 minutes and called. He had 66 for a set and the river did not bring a queen.

In hand 2, I know the hand is garbage but it was after 7 am!:p You had just left the table Dave and the villian in this case was sitting to the right of the dealer and I was 100% sure he had AA preflop. The call was marginal but I hit the flop and was also confident the button and the BB were folding to my re-raise. I figured if villian called me it was at worst a 50:50. I also believed villian was weak enough to call without a flush draw. As it happens, the button folded top two.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

i think limp re-raising against a LAG opponent is definately a more advantageous play than limp-calling.

Why do you think this?

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

Why do you think this?

Well because you are playing a 6 - 9 way pot with QQ oop rather than a 2 or 3 way pot with it. Limp-raising here allows me to thin the field on a very loose table. I can't see how calling here is ever good on a loose table. In this case the flop was seen by 3 players which is far better for me. Ideally I would prefer it to be headsup. Also, there arent nearly has many flops which would kill my action in a three-way pot as opposed to a pot containing virtually the whole table.

Samba

The A High flop should have saved your stack, instead you put and idea in your own head in regards to it and that idea was what lost you your stack.

While you are right he did not have the A, his bet on the turn stinks of strenght and this should have been an abc laydown.

Had you simply raised, you would have gotten a few callers and then it would have been cheap to bet/raise for information, if you want information now it's going to cost you the guts of your stack.

Im not even going to comment on the omaha hand.

Poor play on both hands imo.

cardshark202

Samba wrote:

The A High flop should have saved your stack, instead you put and idea in your own head in regards to it and that idea was what lost you your stack.

While you are right he did not have the A, his bet on the turn stinks of strenght and this should have been an abc laydown.

Had you simply raised, you would have gotten a few callers and then it would have been cheap to bet/raise for information, if you want information now it's going to cost you the guts of your stack.

Im not even going to comment on the omaha hand.

Poor play on both hands imo.

I do think that my preflop call in omaha was poor, I think thats pretty obvious. But i don't think my postflop play was too bad however the general consensus here seems to be that it was.

In the first hand again, I can't see how an A high flop should have saved my stack. If the flop came 962, is it ok to go broke with QQ then? To me the ace was irrevelevant in this case so my only worry was a set. And the only holding I genuinely thought he could have that beat me there was TT. Although 66 was possible I thought it was less likely.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

Well because you are playing a 6 - 9 way pot with QQ oop rather than a 2 or 3 way pot with it. Limp-raising here allows me to thin the field on a very loose table. I can't see how calling here is ever good on a loose table. In this case the flop was seen by 3 players which is far better for me. Ideally I would prefer it to be headsup. Also, there arent nearly has many flops which would kill my action in a three-way pot as opposed to a pot containing virtually the whole table.

Well then you should consider very carefully what you are portraying when you limp/reraise.

You are representing AA/KK/QQ/AK. Thus, when an A-high flop comes down and you get called, it is not often that any villain with any sort of sense is calling you with a hand that cannot beat QQ.

Once you get called on the flop, then you need to check/fold the turn. It would be very unlikely for villain to call the flop, in the face of such strength shown by you, in order that he try to bluff his remaining 360 stack into a 600 pot on the turn if/when you check.

The reason why limp/reraise can be bad is because you cannot really get enough of your money into the pot to force villain to make a really bad mistake (if he has a pocket pair). And if you consistently stack off on an A high board with QQ in this spot, then you are giving fantastic implied odds to all villains.

If you open raise QQ then you might get the numbers down, and if not, then you could easily check/fold this board. If you want to limp, then just limp/call. You only have QQ, its not that good a hand in full ring PL holdem ... especially UTG. But you might hit a Q, and then nobody would put you on QQ.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

I do think that my preflop call in omaha was poor, I think thats pretty obvious. But i don't think my postflop play was too bad however the general consensus here seems to be that it was.

In the first hand again, I can't see how an A high flop should have saved my stack. If the flop came 962, is it ok to go broke with QQ then? To me the ace was irrevelevant in this case so my only worry was a set. And the only holding I genuinely thought he could have that beat me there was TT. Although 66 was possible I thought it was less likely.

This is why its a bad idea to limp/reraise when deep.

Once you get action, you are normally toast against any good players. TT is the same as 66 here, except that he folds TT on the flop. The A on the flop just makes sure that you know that he is not messing around with a smaller overpair here believing that he is good.

handsfree

can't comment on the omaha because i don't play. but the first hand i think you could have got away from. with a preflop raise the villian would have put an ace in your range. if he put you on an ace he probably thought you'd call his all in. he showed no fear of the ace and that would have been enough for me to fold.

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

Well then you should consider very carefully what you are portraying when you limp/reraise.

You are representing AA/KK/QQ/AK. Thus, when an A-high flop comes down and you get called, it is not often that any villain with any sort of sense is calling you with a hand that cannot beat QQ.

Once you get called on the flop, then you need to check/fold the turn. It would be very unlikely for villain to call the flop, in the face of such strength shown by you, in order that he try to bluff his remaining 360 stack into a 600 pot on the turn if/when you check.

The reason why limp/reraise can be bad is because you cannot really get enough of your money into the pot to force villain to make a really bad mistake (if he has a pocket pair). And if you consistently stack off on an A high board with QQ in this spot, then you are giving fantastic implied odds to all villains.

If you open raise QQ then you might get the numbers down, and if not, then you could easily check/fold this board. If you want to limp, then just limp/call. You only have QQ, its not that good a hand in full ring PL holdem ... especially UTG. But you might hit a Q, and then nobody would put you on QQ.

I can see where you are coming from. I agree that in nearly every case, I should check fold the turn. However against a villian who had been showing a lot of bluffs and making a lot of wierd calls, I thought my call was correct.
I aslo take your point about limp calling. Again however, I prefer to play a big pot with a hand like QQ againt 1 or 2 opponents rather than a big pot against 7 opponents. Limp-raising here increased the pot size and increased my chances of winning the hand.

On a side note the BB was holding K6d and the button(who called the limp-raise) had KQc so the villian actually hit a one outer on the flop:( .

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

This is why its a bad idea to limp/reraise when deep.

Once you get action, you are normally toast against any good players. TT is the same as 66 here, except that he folds TT on the flop. The A on the flop just makes sure that you know that he is not messing around with a smaller overpair here believing that he is good.

My thinking in this situation was I thought the villian believed he could take me off the hand if he made a big bet on the turn if I checked to him. My reasoning behind this was from the way the villian called my bet.

I am going to review my play a little more later on though. Thanks for all your input so far.

Samba

I only pull the limp re-raise with AA/KK and it's rare that I do do it as you end up playing big pots out of position, which i do not like, very hard to know where you stand with your hand.


I do not know how you can say with 100% certainty that he does not have an A you yourself said his hand range is very wide, so why instantly rule out an A?

A2o is not plausible?

That aside, lets say you have a read on his body language and you are confident with it.

The flop comes A high, he has no fear of this Ace according to his betting on the turn, alarm bells are ringing here for me.

I still don't like the fact that you are creating a huge pot out of position with QQ.

I would opt to open raise as previously stated, Villain is mostly like to flat call with 66, for argument sake lets say the flop came down 9 high. You still have the option of betting for information and my guess is this player is so aggressive and blatent that you will be able to see from his actions a light bulb over his head illustrating what hand he is holding thus making the laydown much easier.

For me the way you played the hand and reads you made on your opponent forced you into a decision to call off your entire stack. I like to play pots on my terms, not on other players terms, the villain in this case seems to have dictated the play and the outcome of the hand.

Can I ask, is he clever enough to realise that previous play will get him action?

Is this the resident nutter in the SE?

If it is who I think it is, jesus, good luck putting him on any hand.

cardshark202

Samba wrote:

I only pull the limp re-raise with AA/KK and it's rare that I do do it as you end up playing big pots out of position, which i do not like, very hard to know where you stand with your hand.


I do not know how you can say with 100% certainty that he does not have an A you yourself said his hand range is very wide, so why instantly rule out an A?

A2o is not plausible?

That aside, lets say you have a read on his body language and you are confident with it.

The flop comes A high, he has no fear of this Ace according to his betting on the turn, alarm bells are ringing here for me.

I still don't like the fact that you are creating a huge pot out of position with QQ.

I would opt to open raise as previously stated, Villain is mostly like to flat call with 66, for argument sake lets say the flop came down 9 high. You still have the option of betting for information and my guess is this player is so aggressive and blatent that you will be able to see from his actions a light bulb over his head illustrating what hand he is holding thus making the laydown much easier.

For me the way you played the hand and reads you made on your opponent forced you into a decision to call off your entire stack. I like to play pots on my terms, not on other players terms, the villain in this case seems to have dictated the play and the outcome of the hand.

Can I ask, is he clever enough to realise that previous play will get him action?

Is this the resident nutter in the SE?

If it is who I think it is, jesus, good luck putting him on any hand.

Lol I don't think he's a total nutter but he had made some mad plays. He did use his previous plays to get me to make this call alright whether intentionally or unintentionally. He gave off mixed tells on the turn so I couldn't be sure enough he had a set to fold there. I was 110% sure he didn't have an ace and he was the type of player to bet once I showed any sign of weakness. He had made a similiar bet earlier on a board of 56675 after I had bet into him twice before checking the river. He pots it and I folded KQ and he showed Q9!

jtsuited

cardshark202 wrote:

I thought for about 5 minutes and called.

It could have even been longer. Longest decision ever!!
To call the villain LAG and not pure donkey is being far too generous in my opinion!

jtsuited

he also pulled that 'clock' and then 'cancel clock' play, which confused the daylights out of me. I'm sure it didn't help you either

bombinator

hand 1.........
i tought your pre flop action was pretty solid play taking into account
the player against you....especiaslly if you put him on a small to medium pair....
i just think there was no need to re raise the pot after the riv to see where you were or to find out if he hit a set,,a raise of about 50/60 here and most solid players will fold when missing a set,,,is he going to call to in hope of hitting 1/2 outer ......if he calls or even re raises you then you have pretty good idea he hit some of flop and can get away cheaper...
not many players will bluff in this situation as they know you have powerful hand already and will not risk alll stack on bluff,especially late in night ..

hand 2..........definetly a late night cash game play,,,re raise with muckish hand with very little hope of ever hitting the nuts...you can count yourself very lucky not to be beaten here,,,,,he had a lot outs but how often late in cash omaha games do huge pots be taken with rag two pair,,,,gamble that won you lot of cash which somewtimes you have to do

good luck

RoundTower

bombinator wrote:

i just think there was no need to re raise the pot after the riv to see where you were or to find out if he hit a set

I know this forum uses the word raise very liberally, and it still confuses me. But did you really say "re raise the pot after the riv" when you meant "bet the pot on the flop"?

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

Hand 1, I bet €175 into a pot of about €270 on the flop.

After thinking about this some more, and realising fully that 4 players saw a flop ... I would check fold the flop when an Ace hit.