Abortion

Fuseman

Abortion is murder and should be avoided at all costs !! If you feel you are responsible enough to have sex, you should have the responsibilty to deal with the consequences !!

jhegarty

Fuseman wrote:

Abortion is murder and should be avoided at all costs !! If you feel you are responsible enough to have sex, you should have the responsibilty to deal with the consequences !!

prefer the name "baby murder" to abortion myself....

Asiaprod

Fuseman wrote:

Abortion is murder and should be avoided at all costs !! If you feel you are responsible enough to have sex, you should have the responsibilty to deal with the consequences !!

Well done, crystal clear, Black and White, could not be any clearer.

Eh, how about giving us the full color version..... just for balance of course.
IMHO, the abortion is the outcome, its the reason for it that really counts.

Fuseman

A girl on the Personal Issues page is thinking about having an abortion. She is trying to get ideas of a story she could tell her parents while she is away
I got booted off that page for my thoughts !!

jhegarty

Fuseman wrote:

A girl on the Personal Issues page is thinking about having an abortion. She is trying to get ideas of a story she could tell her parents while she is away
I got booted off that page for my thoughts !!

it does appear that saying anything against baby murder is a banning offence on the pi board... they let people post phone numbers of abortion clinics without a problem though...

Fuseman

Fuseman wrote:

Abortion is murder

Well, duh. It's illegal here - of course it's murder. It's not murder in England or America, though.

and should be avoided at all costs !!

If you don't like it, don't have one.

If you feel you are responsible enough to have sex, you should have the responsibilty to deal with the consequences !!

Abortion is a consequence. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it not a consequence. Furthermore, I consent to sex, not pregnancy.

Why did someone start an abortion thread, I thought we all had more sense
Fuse, the girl needs help not condemnation. And I found the post made by someone that having an abortion at a young age is not a good idea - what, and having a child is? I sincerely disagree.

Beruthiel

jhegarty wrote:

it does appear that saying anything against baby murder is a banning offence on the pi board...

no
the banning occurs when someone offers advice which wasn't asked for at the start of the thread :rolleyes:

Dathai

Well, people should have the choice to have an abortion.If they feel they are mature enough to have sex, but have an accident, then they clearly should be able to have one.
If you abort a baby, it just seems as though you getting rid of nothing more "alive" than a tumor or another sort of growth.It has no feelings yet.So therefore its not as immoral as some make out.

Beruthiel

Fuseman wrote:

Abortion is murder and should be avoided at all costs !! If you feel you are responsible enough to have sex, you should have the responsibilty to deal with the consequences !!

it must be just wonderful to live in such a black and white world.
what women do with their own bodies is their own business.

nubbintom

Dathai wrote:

Well, people should have the choice to have an abortion.If they feel they are mature enough to have sex, but have an accident, then they clearly should be able to have one.
If you abort a baby, it just seems as though you getting rid of nothing more "alive" than a tumor or another sort of growth.It has no feelings yet.So therefore its not as immoral as some make out.

So when does a child develop feelings?

ravenhead

Fuseman wrote:

Abortion is murder and should be avoided at all costs !! If you feel you are responsible enough to have sex, you should have the responsibilty to deal with the consequences !!

For a christianity post this statement isn't very christian ... what happened to forgiveness for the sinner, cast the first stone & all that other melarky???

nubbintom

nubbintom wrote:

So when does a child develop feelings?

Well, actually having a brain would be a good start.

Asiaprod

Dathai wrote:

Well, people should have the choice to have an abortion.If they feel they are mature enough to have sex, but have an accident, then they clearly should be able to have one.
If you abort a baby, it just seems as though you getting rid of nothing more "alive" than a tumor or another sort of growth.It has no feelings yet.So therefore its not as immoral as some make out.

Understand what you are trying to say, but take care. You really are stepping on awful thin ice here.

Asiaprod

Fuseman wrote:

A girl on the Personal Issues page is thinking about having an abortion. She is trying to get ideas of a story she could tell her parents while she is away
I got booted off that page for my thoughts !!

Fuseman, in all honesty, despite your feelings on the issue, it sounds like this lady has already made up her own mind. This is here own choice and she will have to deal with the outcome herself. Its not for anyone to pass judgement without knowing all the facts. If this is her method for finding a solution, so be it. You had your say. Let it go. Its a minefield man.

ravenhead

Fuseman wrote:

A girl on the Personal Issues page is thinking about having an abortion. She is trying to get ideas of a story she could tell her parents while she is away
I got booted off that page for my thoughts !!

This girls personal choice has nothing to do with you, this really isn't the place to discuss this

40crush41

hate the sin, love the sinner.
Its my impression that there is not a lot of support for women who have had an abortion in Ireland, being illegal and all. Would be curious to know if there is actually help for the young woman returning from such a emotional and stressful event in their lives.

I am pro-life, I'm american and I'm realizing that there isn't much you can do other than to try to help women have the support to keep their child, or be there for her after she has an abortion. after all it doesn't look like times will be changing.

Flukey

Beruthiel wrote:

what women do with their own bodies is their own business.

Very true. But if they are pregnant, it is somone elses body we are talking about So if you are saying that no one has the right to say what happens to someone else's body, then you have to follow that through to the baby.

As for the "it's not a baby" line, well, if it is not a baby then there is no need for an abortion as they are not really pregnant, is there?

"Women should have the right to choose." True. But if you won't let them be born in the first place you cannot say you are defending their right to choose. If you are aborting them then you are denying them to right to be born, grow up and make their choices, and indeed the rights of men to do so.

There is no reason to defend abortion. If you truly believe that a woman has the right to choose and that no one else can say what happens to someone elses body, as I do, then you cannot support abortion. Doing so is to contradict your stated stance on those two points.

Another classic is: "I've already too many children; I can't afford another one." Simple solution then: kill the eldest child as they are the most expensive! They'll also save further money by being able to use all their hand me downs for the younger ones too, so it the best solution. To that they will respond "I couldn't kill my own child!!!" although of course by having an abortion that is exactly what they are proposing to do, which is what you tell them. They can't have it both ways.

Of course it is not as simple as all that and there are of course extreme situations. There are many unwanted pregnancies and many through terrible circumstances, such as rape. What should be done is to give women support in those situations and put things in place to provide that. Abortion should not need to be a part of that.

Unwanted as the baby may be, it is not their fault that they have been conceived and they should not be made to pay a price. It is the ultmate in visiting on the child the sins of the father. It is extremely difficult, but the services for these women is what is needed. In the longer term an abortion can also do a lot of damage to the woman, even when at the time it seems like a good solution. There are supports and services out there, but there needs to be more. Of course going back to the beginning, there is more needed to be done to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies in the first place by education supports and services.

simu

Flukey wrote:

Another classic is: "I've already too many children; I can't afford another one." Simple solution then: kill the eldest child as they are the most expensive! They'll also save further money by being able to use all their hand me downs for the younger ones too, so it the best solution.

Nah. That would be a total waste of the money already invested in the eldest one and the hand-me-downs would be totally out of style tbh.

Cantab.

Abortion = morally wrong afaik

I've little sympathy for the women (nor indeed their partners) who wilfully travel to England to end a human life.

It's not just as simple as going to England to get a magic fix solution. The woman (and the father) have to deal with the consequences of knowing that they parented a child. This effects peoples marriages and the mental/emotional support needed after undergoing an abortion is life-long (as killer groups such as the 'IFPA' conveniently avoid to tell you).

I would certainly not consider marrying any woman who has undergone an abortion nor would I have any respect for the man who allowed her to travel to England.

simu

Cantab. wrote:

I would certainly not consider marrying any woman who has undergone an abortion nor would I have any respect for the man who allowed her to travel to England.

Well, tbh, if a woman has decided to go, there's nothing legal a man can do to stop her.

40crush41

Cantab, you have to have a little bit of forgiveness in you somewhere. Women in that sort of situation are emotional and confused, they need help and guidance, not scorn and hate. Especially if they have gone through the procedure, don't worry I am sure that most women feel vast amounts of guilt, what they need is help, love and forgiveness.
Now, I have little sympathy for anyone that encourages women into getting an abortion, and abortionist who are aware of what they are doing for money..terrible. All one can do for them is pray I suppose.

Flukey, awesome post.

skye

I would certainly not consider marrying any woman who has undergone an abortion nor would I have any respect for the man who allowed her to travel to England.[/QUOTE]

How would you know unless she told you?? Everyone has their secrets - even you I would say....

Abortion is for each person to decide the moralistic rights and wrongs for themselves - who are we to judge anyone else?? I personally would not have one but that is because I am in a good relationship with a good man and could now deal with it if I got pregnant. Before this relationship it would most certainly have been something I would have done....

As for the poster who said that women who are raped and fall pregnant should be given support instead of abortion....I am at a loss to your thinking... If you were ever raped you would not find your opinions so black and white....How nice it must be to live in your "ideal" world...Get down off your high horse and take a look at the world around you -

Asiaprod

skye wrote:

Yeah I know - banned:eek:

I would not support that, I think you have said very valuble things. Not being a prude or any thing, but I would have rather have not seen the "you ****ing idiot" not because it might not be true;), but because what people write and think are very often in conflict and this does not reallyhelp the situation. There are those for and those against abortion. It does not matter which camp you fall into, the real issue here is the couple ( I really hope its a couple) going through the ordeal.

This issue for me is really very simple, IMHO. How can I help. Certainly not by blasting them cause they take a stance in opposition with my stance on the issue of abortion. The only way is to understand that this person is suffering and to support her when she make her choice. I would imagine that having an abortion is not as easy as some people here seem to think. I feel that the knowlege of what has happened would stay with the person for the rest of their lives. Why should I also add to that suffering because I in my increddible wisdom have deemed this to be the wrong course of action. Crap. Its not my business to condem anyone, and since I do not know all the fact, I cannot/should not, be involved in trying to make any decission about this unless specifically asked to by the lady in question.
For me, compassion should not depend on race, creed or religion.

Its personal and I give it gladly.

Cantab.

skye wrote:

How would you know unless she told you?? Everyone has their secrets - even you I would say....

That's not addressing the point I made. How could anyone enter into a marriage with secrets such as that? (certainly not good enough for me) Having an abortion affects you for the rest of your life and needs emotional and mental (indeed physical) support. I'd be devestated if my wife (not that I have one, yet anyway!) kept this from me.

skye wrote:

Abortion is for each person to decide the moralistic rights and wrongs for themselves

No it's not. I've had this debate about a thousand times before and nobody has ever been able to justify the killing of an innocent unborn.

skye wrote:

- who are we to judge anyone else??

We do it every day with thiefs, murderers, rapists

skye wrote:

I personally would not have one

Why is that now? I'd be interested to know your reasons.

skye wrote:

but that is because I am in a good relationship with a good man and could now deal with it if I got pregnant.
Before this relationship it would most certainly have been something I would have done....

Right. Back to abortion...

skye wrote:

As for the poster who said that women who are raped and fall pregnant should be given support instead of abortion....
I am at a loss to your thinking... If you were ever raped you would not find your opinions so black and white....

Oh so abortion is now a miracle cure for rape? The phsychological, physical, mental and emotional trauma of going through an abortion infinitely outweighs an honest woman who gives birth to a new wonderful life and has the dignity to put her child up for adoption rather than kill him.
Life and death is most obviously a black and white situation. I would even go so far as to force the woman to have the child by having some mechanism for physical restraint in the law.

skye wrote:

How nice it must be to live in your "ideal" world...

Laws and morals set out what is right and what is wrong. Yes, it is an ideal world in theory, but unfortunately there are those warped, free-thinking human beings who insist on going out there killing innocent lives, raping women and irresponsibly bringing children into this world as a result of a moment of self-gratification.

skye wrote:

Get down off your high horse and take a look at the world around you

It seems your moral high horse must be 20 hands higher if you think it is morally ok to kill a human being.

skye wrote:

- you ****ing idiot...

Yeah, you go and get all mad. You won't win the battle and we won't go away by name-calling. You see if you actually could disprove the Catholic Church's (indeed most sensible people in this country) stance on why abortion is obviously wrong, you might have a leg to stand on, but neither you, nor anybody else has done so for the last while, so until then, you can shout and scream all you want and attempt to turn the debate into one of "womens' rights" but afaik, abortion is dispicable and evil.

skye wrote:

Yeah I know - banned:eek:

Yeah, but at least you're still alive.

40crush41

Honestly Skye, would it be the worst thing if a woman who was pregnant by being raped was also given the option of a place to stay, food, clothes and support? Support to if she wishes to give this child up for adoption? To let her know that what happened wasn't her fault? Why can't planned parenthood that is so caught up with giving women "the choice" provide that? Hopefully the reason isn't money... In a world where a woman who is found pregnant is asked by the doctor at a time that should be of joy, "Will you be having the baby?" I think that support for keeping the child would be only fair alternative especially when she is going through this traumatic event.
As my ma puts it, whose a very rational and smart person I believe, "Once you are pregnant for whatever reason, even if you decide to keep the baby, give the baby up for adoption, or have an abortion, your life will never be the same. You are either pregnant or you're not -so you might as well do what is the best for the child"
Listen, Nobody is saying that its easy to deal with an unexpected pregnancy, nevermind the horror of being raped and then finding yourself pregnant.. but tell me how is abortion solving the problem? its not making what happened unhappen. It may be a quick solution, but it is permenant so she better not regret the decision years down the road.
I agree with the feminists for life -Women deserve better than abortion. Maybe if a woman can explain to me why they wish to have a choice to give up the ability to bring life to this earth, explain why they are ashamed of it and wish instead to destroy the evidence... Maybe I would be able to understand the pro-choice stance.. but for now I can't. I'm willing to listen to opposing views, they don't bother me. Perhaps if you can explain why women who are pro-choice state that their choice to have an abortion allows them to be more equal to men.. maybe I'll understand the stance better. We'll see.

Thank you in advance for the explanations provided.
Peace ~Beth

Cantab.

40crush41 wrote:

Honestly Skye, would it be the worst thing if a woman who was pregnant by being raped was also given the option of a place to stay, food, clothes and support? Support to if she wishes to give this child up for adoption? To let her know that what happened wasn't her fault? Why can't planned parenthood that is so caught up with giving women "the choice" provide that? Hopefully the reason isn't money... In a world where a woman who is found pregnant is asked by the doctor at a time that should be of joy, "Will you be having the baby?" I think that support for keeping the child would be only fair alternative especially when she is going through this traumatic event.
As my ma puts it, whose a very rational and smart person I believe, "Once you are pregnant for whatever reason, even if you decide to keep the baby, give the baby up for adoption, or have an abortion, your life will never be the same. You are either pregnant or you're not -so you might as well do what is the best for the child"
Listen, Nobody is saying that its easy to deal with an unexpected pregnancy, nevermind the horror of being raped and then finding yourself pregnant.. but tell me how is abortion solving the problem? its not making what happened unhappen. It may be a quick solution, but it is permenant so she better not regret the decision years down the road.
I agree with the feminists for life -Women deserve better than abortion. Maybe if a woman can explain to me why they wish to have a choice to give up the ability to bring life to this earth, explain why they are ashamed of it and wish instead to destroy the evidence... Maybe I would be able to understand the pro-choice stance.. but for now I can't. I'm willing to listen to opposing views, they don't bother me. Perhaps if you can explain why women who are pro-choice state that their choice to have an abortion allows them to be more equal to men.. maybe I'll understand the stance better. We'll see.

Thank you in advance for the explanations provided.
Peace ~Beth

It's good to get a less 'militant' side of the argument (yes, I admit, I'm militant at times). Abortion really pisses me off and I get angry very quickly. Of course one runs the risk of being labelled 'right-wing' in this instance, but there's nothing extremist about simply being pro-life.

Anyway no matter what approach you take in the war against abortion, it all makes sense and sometimes a more compassionate tone is required to convince those in doubt.

It's heartening to hear again the many convincing reasons why abortion is wrong from so many different people.

Asiaprod

Cantab. wrote:

Anyway no matter what approach you take in the war against abortion, it all makes sense and sometimes a more compassionate tone is required to convince those in doubt.

Then please follow your own advise, if you do not, how can you expect the rest of us to listen to you. I respect your opinions, I am not going to fight about the wrongs or rights of it. I would far rather engage you on the other interesting topics you raise in other posts. I just want you to think less of the dogman and more on the individual in this particular issue. For the record, I too am not in favor of abortion and see it as a last resort.

It's heartening to hear again the many convincing reasons why abortion is wrong from so many different people.

I dont think anyone here likes the idea of abortion, yes, something (I use this for want of a better word I can not find right now) does die in the process and that is truely regretable. However, we really need to understand the circumstances surrounding this case to make a value judgment, it is not good to generalize. Their are always exceptions to the rule. The womans right to determine what she does with her body does not come into this, she has every right to do what ever she wants, she knows she is responsible for the outcome. She uses her own judgment, we support her, and she has to live with the memory.

Goodshape

While I agree with you Asiaprod (that support should be given regardless), showing nothing but support would pretty much eleviate any guilt that would otherwise be felt, I think. So to 'live with the memory' wouldn't be any significint thing (-- you did something, it was supported by all, there was no apparent consequences).

From the anti-abortion point of view, you can see how this isn't too desireable.

Personally I think it's better to end an unwanted and potentially uncared for life before it starts then to let the child fester in a harmful enviorment.All life being one beautiful thing there is no loss but the absence of an unhappy childhood.

And thats assuming that 'life' has actually taken hold in the womb, and not just a potential vessel. Which I don't necessaraly believe is the case (I think it's not but my mind is open as I'm unaware of any conclusive evidence).

40crush41

Goodshape, wow, I'm offended that you would say that people who are anti-abortion.. anti-choice.. pro-life people wouldn't find it desireable that a women who has had a crisis pregnancy would be able to forgive herself. We are trying to save her from the pain, but obviously you don't see that. Once she realizes what was growing inside of her there is a good chance that she will feel guilty for what she has done.. And I don't wish that upon Anyone!
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org/ why would this exist if others didn't agree with what I'm saying.

Anyway, Something that confuses me about society. How is sex so acceptable and being pregnant not? Why on earth does it surprise people when a baby pops into a picture when most people are having sex? Most girls will have an abortion in order to hide the fact that they are pregant -unfortunately there are several incidents that I know about which I should not.. so abortion isn't hiding anything. And you only hear sympathy for girls that found themselves in that situation. On the other hand, I know of a few single mothers, and believe me, they have mine and others deepest respect for being brave enough to give their child life.

I actually had a post for Asiaprod calmly stating that I hoped that women wouldn't have to live with the pain of an abortion.. and then I saw yours.
Please don't assume that b/c of a few extremists that we don't have any compasion for others.

Cantab, thanks -its greatly appreciated. Don't worry, I got your back -and heck, glad that you're backing me so I don't have to feel your wrath =P hah

skye

I'd just like to apologise for my outburst at the end of my last point - totally uncalled for - but I just got a bit wound up.:o

Thanks to all for taking time to read and debate my opinions anyway... I stand by everything that I said, but I also respect and understand the view of others on this thread. This is a highly charged topic and will always be up for dabate and arguement. I will try to keep it more reasoned in the future...

Cantab.

Cantab. wrote:

Life and death is most obviously a black and white situation.

No, it isn't. Too much life is a bad thing, for example.
Animals and plants are killed every day which are more developed, and in the former case, aware, than a fetus. Noone here seems to worry about those, as if we don't have enough people around.

I would even go so far as to force the woman to have the child by having some mechanism for physical restraint in the law.

I would view that as bad as the rape itself. Prolonging it for 9 months.

40crush41 wrote:

How is sex so acceptable and being pregnant not?

How is being pregnant great and sex not? Many pro lifers seem to take te attitude that if a woman dares to have sex, being froced to give birth is an apt punishment for them.

Listen, Nobody is saying that its easy to deal with an unexpected pregnancy, nevermind the horror of being raped and then finding yourself pregnant.. but tell me how is abortion solving the problem? its not making what happened unhappen. It may be a quick solution, but it is permenant so she better not regret the decision years down the road.
I agree with the feminists for life -Women deserve better than abortion. Maybe if a woman can explain to me why they wish to have a choice to give up the ability to bring life to this earth, explain why they are ashamed of it and wish instead to destroy the evidence... Maybe I would be able to understand the pro-choice stance.. but for now I can't.

It would mean I could devote my time to just getting over the rape rather than having the result of the rape growing inside me for 9 months as a constant forcible reminder of what happened. It would mean not only was one act of rape enough to emotionally disrupt my life for a while, it would be a physical matter as well. Then I would either have to take care of the baby after birth - not going to happen - or dump it on someone else and make it someone else's problem, which is just not right. I have the utmost respect for those who would give birth after the rape, but I couldn't handle it.
As for the rest of your post, I don't want to bring life to this earth. We have more than enough already. There are children who are neglected all over the place, those who are starving, those who spend years in adoption and are miserable for it. Throwing another on to the pile just for the sake of it is pretty much irresponsible. We really do have more than enough people around already.

I don't WANT to have an abortion. For goodness' sakes, I don't even like killing flies. But I do not regard at fetus at even that level, because it is an unformed, non-sentient clump of cells 3 inches long or less.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm
And I'm not giving up sex. So it's up to the utmost protection I can have. And if necessary, abortion, though I would do my best short of abstinence to avoid it. I don't ever plan to have children, but I'm not planning on becoming a nun, either.

Here is a link that I feel might be better at presenting my side:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-personhood.htm


http://imnotsorry.net/

Tar.Aldarion

Why is this in chistianity, humanities is where is should be.
Oh and not all people that are pro life are religious crack pots. :v:

wolfywifey wrote:

and in the former case, aware, than a fetus. Noone here seems to worry about those

Well I do

Asiaprod

Goodshape wrote:

but support would pretty much eleviate any guilt that would otherwise be felt, I think.

Unfortunatly or unfortunatly, I'm not sure which, I have met a couple of women who had to take this road and although they have no regrets for their course of action, they do feel very guilty for what they HAD to do.

Asiaprod

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Why is this in chistianity, humanities is where is should be.

I agree, does the moderate have a take on this?

Moriarty

40crush41 wrote:

http://www.rachelsvineyard.org/ why would this exist if others didn't agree with what I'm saying.

Why are you implying that a certain position can be validated beyond doubt simply because other people also think the same way?

Nevyn

40crush41 wrote:

hate the sin, love the sinner.
Its my impression that there is not a lot of support for women who have had an abortion in Ireland, being illegal and all. Would be curious to know if there is actually help for the young woman returning from such a emotional and stressful event in their lives.

I am pro-life, I'm american and I'm realizing that there isn't much you can do other than to try to help women have the support to keep their child, or be there for her after she has an abortion. after all it doesn't look like times will be changing.

There is very little support at all and many women do not eve go for the 6 week medical check up after they have had a termination.
There is post abortion counselling but the one that is free is ran by the catholic agency Cura and thier take on post abortion councilling is that the
women must admit that what she did was wrong and evil and seek confession and then see about forgiving herself.

It is still so taboo many women never talk about what happened or how it effects thier lives.
I wrote about it here http://blogs.boards.ie/thaed/2005/08/16/taken-from-humanities/

Cantab.

Thaedydal wrote:

There is very little support at all and many women do not eve go for the 6 week medical check up after they have had a termination.
There is post abortion counselling but the one that is free is ran by the catholic agency Cura and thier take on post abortion councilling is that the
women must admit that what she did was wrong and evil and seek confession and then see about forgiving herself.

Why are you criticising Cura for providing free post-abortion counselling? Counselling is exactly what these women need after going through such trauma. And who was the last woman that Cura turned away for not being a Catholic/not believing in Catholic ways? Who was the last child that was turned away from school because their parents were not Catholic?

Would you ever show some respect and stop ridiculing Catholic belief in the Sacrament of Penance. What's wrong with admitting evil and seeking redemption? I wonder would you ridicule Jewish belief in immorality of abortion too?

Thaedydal wrote:

It is still so taboo many women never talk about what happened or how it effects thier lives.
I wrote about it here http://blogs.boards.ie/thaed/2005/08/16/taken-from-humanities/

Now I wonder why it is 'taboo'. For a reason perhaps? Women who wilfully kill their own children have little respect from me, the sinners that they are.

Nevyn

Condemning some one and forcing them to conform to a certain view point is not counselling.

40crush41

Cantab, we aren't sent by God to condemn the sinner "Thou without sin cast the first stone."

I have a lot of posts to answer so it seems, I'll answer them shortly.

40crush41

Moriarty wrote:

Why are you implying that a certain position can be validated beyond doubt simply because other people also think the same way?

I'm saying that pain after abortion exists proven by the women that feel the need to talk their pain. Not every woman feels that, you may think I'm ignorant enough to think that but I'm not. Still, this proves that since it exists that women must feel the need to seek help.

pepper

Fuseman wrote:

Abortion is murder and should be avoided at all costs !! If you feel you are responsible enough to have sex, you should have the responsibilty to deal with the consequences !!

thank you- just what i think

the baby didnt ask to be concieved

simu

pepper wrote:

the baby didnt ask to be concieved

Babies don't object to being aborted either. :-p

UU

Well where do I start? Firstly I think abortion is a two-sided situation. In order to understand or even give a proper view on abortion one must see both sides of the argument.

I believe that abortion is an incredibly serious social matter. It is killing a life - that is true and must be acknowledged. Although there are scenarios that must be dealt with. For example, if the life of the mother was in danger in conceiving the baby then there is the matter of which life to save which is up to the mother. Also, just say if a foetus is going to be born very severely disabled that if it lived it wouldn't live very long - imagine being a mother having to bring a child from the cradle to the grave in a few weeks? Even if such a severely disabled child lived, would it be better alive or dead, if you could call it living?

Then there is the issue of rape and incest. Is it the mother's fault that she got raped? Is it the child's fault also? The mother should have the right to decide if she chooses to bring a baby from a person who raped her into the world.

On the other hand, I think those parents who get an abortion because having a baby would ruin their life are being extremely selfish and I don't agree with casual abortions. If they lack the finance or the nature to care for a child then they should give it up for adoption to those parents who are unable to have children. At least it would make somebody happy.

Although, scientists are now currently using foetuses for Stem Cell Research in some countries which if successful could cure many people on Earth. Imaging being born blind and then being able to see? Or being in a wheelchair and then being able to walk?

I'm such a rambler but abortion in my view should definitely be a last resort. To avoid bigotry, please try to look at this two-sided arguments as you would want to end up like the fundamentalist Christians in America who gun down abortion doctors.

40crush41

bluewolf wrote:

How is being pregnant great and sex not? Many pro lifers seem to take te attitude that if a woman dares to have sex, being froced to give birth is an apt punishment for them.

Anyone who has the misconception or gives the misconception that a crisis pregnancy is an easy place to be is wrong, if I gave you this misconception, accept my apologies. I have worked with women in a crisis pregnancy center called Birthright to help them keep their child, they face a challenge, I can be witness to that.. though I will note, they have an amazing amount of strength.
And yea, I won't say that a women going through an abortion isn't strong either, only a fool will say that an abortion is the easy way out.. though I fear that this is an idea given.. especially to young pregnant teenage girls, giving them the impression that there is no help out there, all they can do is get an abortion, and it will be as if nothing ever happened. Please lets be honest with ourselves and understand that abortion is an industry, its about money. But isn't everything...

It would mean I could devote my time to just getting over the rape rather than having the result of the rape growing inside me for 9 months as a constant forcible reminder of what happened. It would mean not only was one act of rape enough to emotionally disrupt my life for a while, it would be a physical matter as well. Then I would either have to take care of the baby after birth - not going to happen - or dump it on someone else and make it someone else's problem, which is just not right. I have the utmost respect for those who would give birth after the rape, but I couldn't handle it.

So getting over rape is really that easy? I'm just going to destroy the evidence, and move on? I'm sure there are some people in the population that can achieve that. And an abortion is physical, Fine, birth is a greater physical process, at least its natural and its not ending in death. Lets just say as much as you wouldn't be able to give birth, I wouldn't be able to get an abortion, fair enough.

As for the rest of your post, I don't want to bring life to this earth. We have more than enough already. There are children who are neglected all over the place, those who are starving, those who spend years in adoption and are miserable for it. Throwing another on to the pile just for the sake of it is pretty much irresponsible. We really do have more than enough people around already.

Due to statistics you would burn every "unwanted" child b/c they don't promise as fulfilling lives as all those other "wanted" children out there. First, lets just make it clear that not every "wanted" person is perfect, but lets not get into a tangent.
I know plenty of adopted people and some children given to the happiest family finally able to have a child. They live fulfilling lives, are loved, and surely the adoption agencies are able to provide any necessary medical information needed. I even have a cousin who suffers from reactive attachment disorder. It is not the easiest thing in the world to handle, but would I have rather never have had her in my life? Would I have rathered my aunt be saved the grief of having such a daughter? Would my aunt and uncle rather have been saved any hurt she had caused and instead wish that her life had never entered this world? To keep it simple. Never crosses our minds and that was painful to type.
Who are we to determine who is to live and who is to not be given the chance to prove their potential? We who have been granted the opportunity to pass onto the next step of the journey by those who have made it before us get to base the chances of the next persons potential due to some stastics and then decide if that person is worth the trouble of allowing into this world... this sick and sorry world that we live in. We can't even have the decency to try to make it better.. instead we can only come up with this grand plan of eliminiting "problems" that we don't even give the chance to speak for themselves.

Explain Surragate mothers to me, I am dying to understand this concept. I saw an add in the paper the other day for one and I can only scratch my head! If we already have so many children out there starving as you say.. never mind all those being aborted.. and then there are so many infertile couples out there dying to have a child.. why oh Why! are we bringing more children in only b/c an egg and a sperm come from the parents? Do genetics honestly mean that much when it comes to loving a child?

I don't WANT to have an abortion. For goodness' sakes, I don't even like killing flies. But I do not regard at fetus at even that level, because it is an unformed, non-sentient clump of cells 3 inches long or less.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm
And I'm not giving up sex. So it's up to the utmost protection I can have. And if necessary, abortion, though I would do my best short of abstinence to avoid it. I don't ever plan to have children, but I'm not planning on becoming a nun, either.

I honestly can't comprehend, if women don't want an abortion, don't have one. Or if in the end, it is only a glob of tissue cells without a soul (btw, the Church's stance is that they don't know when the soul enters, therefore they judge on the error of it being there since conception.. this is what I was taught) anyway, if it really is a glob of tissue in your eyes, why would you even bother to say you don't want one? This matter confuses me. I don't think it is easy to deal with, but obviously, most women would rather have the choice and excercise this choice .. something that most say they do not want. Or maybe they are just saying that they don't want to be pregnant? Well, of course not, who the heck wants to have a crisis pregnancy? But when it happens, there are ways to deal with it, and if women are actually saying what they mean (which I doubt, but still) There Are Alternatives, and if the alternatives aren't enough, why don't you do what you can to make them better.. after all it is Your choice as a woman to do what you Want with your body.

Or maybe I just don't understand and thats a problem on my part.. I can't comprehend it.. So Fine..
we don't agree, and just might never agree. I can deal just fine with that realization.
Your links are another thing I don't agree with. There are things that bothered me, I don't feel like pointing them out, theres no need to try to persuade you differently I respect your firm stance, you will not budge and nor will I.
But I will say, All Life is precious -I Do not believe in predestination, I say give every potential person a chance to determine how potential their own life is.

40crush41

simu wrote:

Babies don't object to being aborted either. :-p

But hey, somebody's gotta say something for them with all the clamoring for conception going on.

Fair is fair eh?

Asiaprod

40crush41 wrote:

Explain Surrogate mothers to me, I am dying to understand this concept. I saw an add in the paper the other day for one and I can only scratch my head! If we already have so many children out there starving as you say.. never mind all those being aborted.. and then there are so many infertile couples out there dying to have a child.. why oh Why! are we bringing more children in only b/c an egg and a sperm come from the parents? Do genetics honestly mean that much when it comes to loving a child?

I think you might be a little of base on this one. Its not just a question of genetics.
For me it is really very simple. Couples who decide to have a baby want to create a child of their own union.
It is an expression of their love and commitment for each other, and their desire to produce and raise their own family as their mothers and fathers before them. Given the choice between adoption and say some type of surrogate option, I believe they would opt for the later first as it fills some of the criteria for producing ones own offspring.. Failing that, they would then look to adoption. However, adoption is not an easy process. Sometimes one would even wonder if the agencies really want these kids adopted. The amount of checking and follow up is very invasive on a couples privacy and works against the couple feeling that this is their child. Unfortunatly, this checking is required as you are entrusting the life of a minor to people you do not know
To set your heart at rest, I am currently discussing with my wife the benefits of us adopting as she wants another child and I believe that time and nature are not exactly on her side. I would like to give a child a home. Lets see how it goes.

40crush41

Hey Asia,
I do hear you, my Ma and Dad before having my sister were all ready to adopt a child.. but with her and then me soon after they didn't.. Like you say it is a huge process, I've known people who have gone through it, and my Ma says that you have to reach the right mindset before you aproach such a project.
Still though, I suppose its not such a huge project with a surrogat mother, but it must be work, and like adoption, a sum of money. I guess the best way to put it is that I find this world curious... on one side theres an abortion clinic, and on another, theres a surrogate mother giving birth.. Such is life.
With that being said, I can understand why a couple would want to have a child that expresses their love... after all, children are the product of love. But then again, its not like they are being conceived naturally... well, I can go back and forth for a while, so I'll end there.

Well, anyway, the best of luck to you and your wife on the journey thats ahead of you, I think its wonderful. And though I'm relatively young, I could see myself adopting one day, of course I'll have to find my husband first though and consult with him

Peace, and thanks for always such pleasant replies.
~Beth

Asiaprod

40crush41 wrote:

And though I'm relatively young, I could see myself adopting one day, of course I'll have to find my husband first though and consult with him

Sounds like a good plan, I will be sure to let you know what happens

Peace, and thanks for always such pleasant replies.

Thanks for your receptiveness:v:

Nevyn

UU wrote:

On the other hand, I think those parents who get an abortion because having a baby would ruin their life are being extremely selfish and I don't agree with casual abortions. If they lack the finance or the nature to care for a child then they should give it up for adoption to those parents who are unable to have children. At least it would make somebody happy.

Ideally this would be the case and abortion would not be needed but it is not that simple.

40crush41

40crush41 wrote:

So getting over rape is really that easy? I'm just going to destroy the evidence, and move on? I'm sure there are some people in the population that can achieve that. And an abortion is physical, Fine, birth is a greater physical process, at least its natural and its not ending in death. Lets just say as much as you wouldn't be able to give birth, I wouldn't be able to get an abortion, fair enough.

I in no way implied it was easy, and you know that very well.
I already view the idea of having children as very unpleasant. My boyfriend told me yesterday (we were discussing this thread irl) that I seem to view pregnancy as having a parasite in me. Rape is one of the few things I think would totally break me. Having something invade me not just once at the time of rape, but to be there continuously for 9 months afterwards would be so much worse. There are those who can do it and have the birth help them move on. Good for them. But I couldn't.

Due to statistics you would burn every "unwanted" child b/c they don't promise as fulfilling lives as all those other "wanted" children out there.

I'm saying we have enough people already that having more just for the sake of having more children is ludicrous. To those who want their child or can do well for them or whatever, go ahead. I'm sure they can have great lives. But I'm under no obligation to have kids.

I know plenty of adopted people and some children given to the happiest family finally able to have a child. They live fulfilling lives, are loved, and surely the adoption agencies are able to provide any necessary medical information needed.

Good for them. That still doesn't make me want to have children.

I even have a cousin who suffers from reactive attachment disorder. It is not the easiest thing in the world to handle, but would I have rather never have had her in my life? Would I have rathered my aunt be saved the grief of having such a daughter? Would my aunt and uncle rather have been saved any hurt she had caused and instead wish that her life had never entered this world? To keep it simple. Never crosses our minds and that was painful to type.

If they hadn't, you wouldn't have known what it was like, and so the whole point is moot.

Who are we to determine who is to live and who is to not be given the chance to prove their potential?

If it's invading my body, it doesn't get to live.
And since people have no qualms about killing every other form of life,...mm.

We who have been granted the opportunity to pass onto the next step of the journey by those who have made it before us get to base the chances of the next persons potential due to some stastics and then decide if that person is worth the trouble of allowing into this world... this sick and sorry world that we live in.

Look, you can romanticize it all you like. I'm not stopping you from having children, or anyone else. It's not for me, and so I choose otherwise.
I am telling you that based on overpopulation, we do not need to breed like rabbits. I am not forcing every pregnant woman to abort, nor would I ever.
So please stop taking this so far.

We can't even have the decency to try to make it better.. instead we can only come up with this grand plan of eliminiting "problems" that we don't even give the chance to speak for themselves.

I can't really make anything better if I'm glued to a cradle.
Given the chance to speak for themselves? Would you prefer we waited til they were born and about 6 years old?

Explain Surragate mothers to me, I am dying to understand this concept. I saw an add in the paper the other day for one and I can only scratch my head! If we already have so many children out there starving as you say..

Are you actually sitting there and telling me you don't believe there are starving children anywhere? Seriously?

never mind all those being aborted.. and then there are so many infertile couples out there dying to have a child.. why oh Why! are we bringing more children in only b/c an egg and a sperm come from the parents? Do genetics honestly mean that much when it comes to loving a child?

Asiaprod has covered that one.
And in America, it's easy to love an adopted child as long as they're healthy and white.

I honestly can't comprehend, if women don't want an abortion, don't have one.

I would love not to. But if I get pregnant, ever, that's probably what will happen. Other people are free to do otherwise.

Or if in the end, it is only a glob of tissue cells without a soul (btw, the Church's stance is that they don't know when the soul enters, therefore they judge on the error of it being there since conception.. this is what I was taught)

I'm not a christian, I don't care what the church teaches. That was not meant to sound rude, btw.

anyway, if it really is a glob of tissue in your eyes, why would you even bother to say you don't want one?

What is a fly to me? A small little thing that doesn't seem to be able to think, and just buzzes around annoying me. But it's alive. So I don't really want to kill it. It probably feels pain. A fetus, I'm pretty sure, doesn't. Not early enough. It's alive, and so I would rather avoid killing it, but I would have less guilt about it than most any other killings.

This matter confuses me. I don't think it is easy to deal with, but obviously, most women would rather have the choice and excercise this choice .. something that most say they do not want. Or maybe they are just saying that they don't want to be pregnant?

Most who says they don't want what? Bit confused here.

Well, of course not, who the heck wants to have a crisis pregnancy? But when it happens, there are ways to deal with it, and if women are actually saying what they mean (which I doubt, but still) There Are Alternatives, and if the alternatives aren't enough, why don't you do what you can to make them better.. after all it is Your choice as a woman to do what you Want with your body.

Thanks.

Or maybe I just don't understand and thats a problem on my part.. I can't comprehend it.. So Fine..
we don't agree, and just might never agree. I can deal just fine with that realization.

I'd rather it was different, but I suppose we have to face it as it is.

Your links are another thing I don't agree with. There are things that bothered me, I don't feel like pointing them out, theres no need to try to persuade you differently I respect your firm stance, you will not budge and nor will I.

I'm not sure I'm trying to persuade so much as trying to help you understand my viewpoint. It's why I replied the last time to you.

But I will say, All Life is precious -I Do not believe in predestination, I say give every potential person a chance to determine how potential their own life is.

All life is precious? Do you eat plants and animals?

As for potential - meh, I have the potential to be President, so where's my private plane?


Listen, I'm pretty sure I understand what the pro-life stance is like. Those who won't agree that everyone should choose for themselves view abortion as equal to murdering a born person, and of course who would say that it's a question of choice about whether to murder born people or not?
My view, obviously, is that it's not the same by a long shot, and that potential is not a good thing to argue from.

I think instead of haggling about abortion itself, people in general need to work on 100% effective contraception, better and more comprehensive sex ed for everyone, lower the crime rate, etc. Remove the need (perceived or real) for abortion, and that will solve the problem, I think.

Ugh, sorry for such a long post