The Nature of Card Readers.

Zillah

So I was wondering, is it the fortune teller, or the cards that tell the future?

Zombrex

Zillah wrote:

So I was wondering, is it the fortune teller, or the cards that tell the future?

Thats a good question actually, I always wondered that..

I assumed it was the fortune teller was trained to read the cards, but the fortune teller had no paranormal ability herself, the outcome was coming from the cards themselves. (ie anyone could do it if they had the right training)

But then you hear about fortune tellers having the "gift", which implies they are the ones with the paranormal ability, and this ability produces the outcome with the cards. (ie you have to have special ability to do it, someone else doing exact same thing would not produce the answer)

Any real life card readers like to shead some light on this...

GuanYin

Good question, but off topic. Split to a new thread.

I'd always understood the cards were just a tool and that the medium used them to "focus their mind".

Of course, my entire knowledge of such things comes from 'The Gift' and Ghost.

stevenmu

My understanding is that it's mainly the teller. Each card does have prescribed meaning which can vary based on it's position in the layout used and other cards drawn. But, in addition to this the reader is supposed to use their intuition to pick out and interpret the meanings most relevant to the person being read to. Also, when I say 'meaning', it's not a specific meaning such as "you are going to walk in to a shop at 3:15 and buy a mars bar". A simplified example would be a card that may mean future fortune or luck and another may represent love, in which case the combination would imply that the person will either find love soon, or if already in a relationship that it'll succeed.

That's the impression I got anyway, I bought a tarot set for a friend a few years back and had a quick read of the book. I got her to give me a reading, which she did by literally reading out what the book said about each card, and while parts of it seemed scarily accurate, other parts seemed a bit generalised.

Zombrex

stevenmu wrote:

That's the impression I got anyway, I bought a tarot set for a friend a few years back and had a quick read of the book. I got her to give me a reading, which she did by literally reading out what the book said about each card, and while parts of it seemed scarily accurate, other parts seemed a bit generalised.

Would that not imply that it is mainly the cards then though, if anyone can do it from simply reading out instructions from a book?

stevenmu

No, sorry, I meant to explain that some more but got distracted. If she had of picked out the bits that were just specific to me then it would have been hugely impressive (altough in this case she could have done that just by knowing me). There were other bits that didn't really apply to me, which lessened the impact of the reading. It also would have been more impressive with some correct interpretation of what she was reading instead of just reading it verbatim.

It's also suggested that cards aren't drawn completely randomly, that the reader subconciously pulls out the cards that are most relevant.

Zombrex

stevenmu wrote:

It's also suggested that cards aren't drawn completely randomly, that the reader subconciously pulls out the cards that are most relevant.

Oh ok, I get you now.

Yeah that would support the idea of the teller having the "gift" (like in "Live and Let Die" ) which allows them to manipulate the cards to produce a correct reading.

The question would then be if this can be taught or learnt or if it is just an ability someone has

amazingemmet

Wicknight wrote:

I assumed it was the fortune teller was trained to read the cards, but the fortune teller had no paranormal ability herself, the outcome was coming from the cards themselves. (ie anyone could do it if they had the right training)

I'd agree with that, When i read i try to avoid using intuition as this can cloud whats going on. There's a system and if you follow the system you'll get good results. I find that readers that rely on intuition tend to have varying results that some time they can be accurate and other times wide of the mark.

I like to think that the spread tells a story and you can read the story as is or you can read the first bit and try guess the rest.

stevenmu

I can see how intuition could be detrimental, especially in a commercial situation where a reader 'has' to give a reading even if they're not picking up anything and would have to try and 'force' their intuition to come up with something. Do you agree though that a spread needs to be interpreted by the reader, or do you think that the same spread would always meant the exact same thing even if it's for completely different people ?


(good to hear from someone who actually practises btw, I really know very little about the subject)

hairyheretic

I don't think the reader is manipulating anything.

I don't read tarot, but I do read the runes, which is a similar idea. I'll explain how I do a reading and see if this helps any. I'll just point out that how I do things is my own personal way, not perhaps the way things are generally done.

I lay the runes face down, and ask the person I'm reading for to fix the question in their mind. I pass my hand slowly over the runes until I get a feeling that I should pick one up. I do this in sequence until I have selected the numer of runes I need for the reading spread. The spread I normally use has 7 runes, the first 4 in a diamond, the remaining 3 inside that in a down pointing triangle, so they form an arrowhead layout. The reason I do this is that this is also the shape of Tiwaz, Tyr's rune, and it is Tyr I am closest to.

I will turn over the runes, and explain both the individual meaning of the rune, and the meaning of the position it is in. As there can be multiple meanings for runes, this requires some interpretation.

An example would be Raido, a R shaped rune, which is one of journeys. These can be physical or spiritual journeys.

Once all the runes are revealed and their meanings explained, I'll try to give an overall picture, based on the runes meanings and positions.

Does that help clarify things any?

Zillah

Im not familiar with these runes you speak of. I recognise Tyr, the maimed God of Norse mythology I believe. Would I be right in saying this is scandinavian?

hairyheretic

Nordic, yes.

I read the Elder Futhark runes (a set of 24). There is also the Younger Futhark (16) and the anglo saxon ones (not sure how many in those).

Do a google search for Futhark and you should pick up plenty of links that will give a decent explanation. Divination would probably be the most common use for them, but not the only one. If you want to discuss more on that though we might be better on the paganism forum.

stevenmu

hairyheretic wrote:

Does that help clarify things any?

Not really

When you say "I pass my hand slowly over the runes until I get a feeling that I should pick one up. I do this in sequence until I have selected the numer of runes I need for the reading spread.", this implies to me that it's your intuition, ability or perhaps some form of spirit guide acting through you, which is influencing the selection of the runes and their order, and therefore is influencing what the spread will be and in turn the reading. The only alternative I can see where it wouldn't be 'you' influencing the reading is if the runes picked themselves, making themselves known to you as your hand passes over.

hairyheretic

stevenmu wrote:

Not really

When you say "I pass my hand slowly over the runes until I get a feeling that I should pick one up. I do this in sequence until I have selected the numer of runes I need for the reading spread.", this implies to me that it's your intuition, ability or perhaps some form of spirit guide acting through you, which is influencing the selection of the runes and their order, and therefore is influencing what the spread will be and in turn the reading. The only alternative I can see where it wouldn't be 'you' influencing the reading is if the runes picked themselves, making themselves known to you as your hand passes over.

It could be either I am not consiously picking out particular runes to create a reading. Since the runes are face down and shuffled, I can't know which is which.

It might be interesting to have someone who wasn't familiar with divination to draw the cards / runes and see which came out. I think some people do readings in that way .. let the questioner pick the cards, and then the reader does the interpretation.

I know some people have very strong feelings on letting others touch your tools.

amazingemmet

stevenmu wrote:

Do you agree though that a spread needs to be interpreted by the reader, or do you think that the same spread would always meant the exact same thing even if it's for completely different people ?

I find it has to be interpreted for the situation as the same spread will mean different things in different situations, ie one for about money will have different meanings then one about love life.

I find also that vague questions get the worst readings where as questions that require precise answers get the best responses. For instance if i asked "what will my life be like in a years time" theres so many answers to this its hard to get a clear reading but if say i asked " should i go into business with some person" i'd find the answer to be alot clearer. Part of reading i find is asking the right question.

Just back to the same spread question i don't think two people could get the same spread due to all the possible combinations of possible spread it might happen but the chances of it are extremely slim.

mysteria

I use Tarot and find it difficult to generalise about their use. "The nature of the reader" is important, that is, their intentions and motives. The Tarot cards are based on geometric shapes, and colours, that help us access our subconscious resources just by looking at the images. So they help increase your intuition. Some people read meanings from the booklets that come with each deck and give a very accurate reading. Almost everyone starts reading Tarot that way. Some people memorise meanings, others allow their intuition to flow,there really aren't any hard-and-fast rules. So while the cards themselves act like a catalyst to release psychic energy, they can also be used effectively at a basic level. And most readers allow the client to choose the cards, most people who want readings prefer to choose themselves. Like the Runes, they are another tool to help release psychic energy. Spreads and layouts vary according to the readers, and in my opinion readers should trust their intuition when working with tarot, runes etc. In other words, if it feels right go with it.

Zillah

So you're saying that its the reader and their psychic energy that tells the future?

Nevyn

It can be very hard to say where one begins and the other ends.
I have found that certain decks of tarot cards build up thier own engries and
you end up forming a relationship with them.

I tend to see Tarot cards as a tool, a very complex tool and like any good tool the more you use it the more you learn and can tune in to the cards, other people and both thier engeries and the cards.

The jungen take on tarot cards and their symbolism is intresting.

mysteria

Zillah wrote:

So you're saying that its the reader and their psychic energy that tells the future?

I believe it can be either or both, as Thaedy says most of us form connections with our decks. Anyone can do a tarot reading using the booklet, but other factors affect the reading too. So a very psychic person using cards for the first time is capable of giving a more detailed, accurate reading than a fortune-teller who has used cards for years, if they let their intuition flow.

Nevyn

The symbolism and images on a single tarot card have many meanings aside from the first general symbolism of the card.

As you work with them the more you learn about the card and the better you can tell which spefic meaning is called for at that time, for that person.

Then you have to addin the position of the card in the chosen spread and the effect the other cards in the spread have on it and it has on them.

Anyone can shuffle a deck as a question and draw 3 cards.
The first being matters in the past that effect the question,
the second where things stand at the moment
and the third card the most likely out come.
( most likely because we do have free will and a person could decided to change their mind or situation ).
And then read the listed meanings and find it can be effective.
If tarot cards went effective they would not still be arround and being used.

An experienced tarot reader who has the gift can tell a lot more from just those 3 cards and chances are would be using a more complex spread to begin with.

Anyone can learn to knit a few stiches, but it take practice and skill to knit a jumper.

http://www.paranormality.com/tarot_meanings.shtml

Peanut

Is it the teller or the cards?

I think it's both (or neither, depending on how you look at it).

I don't think you can separate the reader from the cards. They are both part of the same system, in so far as they are both part of the objective Universe.
So you can't have one without the other.

If you are just throwing cards and not going to get a feel for the ideas that are represented on them, then nothing much is going to happen. I guess if there is something to it, then the Teller's skill comes from knowing, or more so feeling, that the current deal and subsequent interpretation are helpful and relevant.

This could apply to any system of symbols, but it looks like the Tarot cards provide an especially rich tapestry of abstract concepts that can be formed together to elucidate a given situation in someone's life.

Where does this information come from?
If it is real, I would think that there exists something like Plato's world of ideas. That is, a realm of the Cosmos outside physical space so to speak, that is referenced in terms of abstractions and ideas, but nonetheless real.
This "world" may exist parallel to our own physical experience, and information may be exchanged between the two.

A Teller would therefore gain their skill by being aware of resonances between the "idea" world and the real world, in terms of the story being told on the cards. The symbols on the cards, and their interpretation, might reference the Platonic world like x y z coordinates reference physical space.

I've heard Tellers shuffling the pack until the 'energy' is higher.
This could correspond to an intuition that at a given time, the cards dealt will be referenced in the correct 'location' appropriate to the situation.

I guess this is a bit similar to a Spiritualistic interpretation, but is a bit more 'mechanist' I think.
damn verbal puke

Shortnose

I started out by giving tarot readings. I only charged $15 at the time (23 years ago or so) as a friend told me if I didn't people would take advantage of me.

The very first client I had was a lawyer. I picked up information that was clearly clairvoyant/clairaudient and certainly not in the cards, although perhaps triggered by focusing on the cards' meaning as per what I'd studied via books at the time. He wrote me a check for $25, instead of $15 as he was so impressed.

I was living with my boyfriend at the time and ran home to show him the check saying, "Look what someone gave me just for talking to them!" LOL!!

Anyway, soon after I realized I didn't need the cards. They'd been like training wheels on a bicycle...so I just started doing readings without 'props' and things went a lot faster for me. (i.e. the info flowed like water).