Wanted: Website Designer

Norfork Nights

Hi there, time has come again to for us to update to a new website.
Were on a tight budget so If theres any webdesigners out there who are looking for a small bit of work.

Its a small site:) (to be designed in flash):v:

Futher details : please send a pm!

Thanks
Alan!

aidan_walsh

Norfolk Nights wrote:

to be designed in flash

Any good reason for this?

Norfork Nights

Dunno just like flash!

aidan_walsh

Norfork Nights wrote:

Dunno just like flash!

Terrible, terrible reason. Flash, by and large, adds nothing to a website bar obnoxious navigation, longer loading times and the requirement of having a plugin installed. There is nothing functionally useful that you can do with Flash than you can do without it.

EOA_Mushy

aidan_walsh wrote:

Terrible, terrible reason. Flash, by and large, adds nothing to a website bar obnoxious navigation, longer loading times and the requirement of having a plugin installed. There is nothing functionally useful that you can do with Flash than you can do without it.

Cant use it?

muckwarrior

Flash is OK for enhancing a website but nobody with a bit of cop on would design the whole website with it.

aidan_walsh

EOA_Mushy wrote:

Cant use it?

Can use it fine thanks, but there is very little that actually requires it. The limitations that Flash puts on a site, which have to be worked on to overcome when using XHTML would do by default, far outweigh any benefits it might have. It shouldn't be used for the majority of websites, and certainly not just because the person running the site "likes it". You're designing for your users, not yourself.

Norfork Nights

Well thats why im looking for a designer and not doing it myself, so he/she can advise on what suits best!

EOA_Mushy

aidan_walsh wrote:

The limitations that Flash puts on a site, which have to be worked on to overcome when using XHTML would do by default, far outweigh any benefits it might have. It shouldn't be used for the majority of websites, and certainly not just because the person running the site "likes it". You're designing for your users, not yourself.

Fully agreed on all points, just asking....
Some cartoons or a few games, fine, but a whole site, why?

thedesigntribe

Norfork,

Comments above re: flash are bang on - flash should only be used where necessary. The main reason for this is that search engines can not see though flash, so all content contained within is invisible.

maidhc

thedesigntribe wrote:

Norfork,

Comments above re: flash are bang on - flash should only be used where necessary. The main reason for this is that search engines can not see though flash, so all content contained within is invisible.

And it is painful for people with low bandwidth connections, and totally inaccessible for people using screen readers.

I the reason that flash websites exist is from graphic designers diversifying: They make lovely looking websites, but miss the point of what the internet is about.

As a rule I just hit the stop button whenever I come upon a flash website.

muckwarrior

muckwarrior wrote:

Flash is OK for enhancing a website but nobody with a bit of cop on would design the whole website with it.

exactly, too much flash is annoying and remember not everyone has broadband so load up time is an issue for many people and they won't stick around and wait.

tom_ass19

true...

Oriel

I've never heard of somebody designing a website based on what they like instead of what the customer needs...

WizZard

...until now :rolleyes:

Pixel8

Dont mind anything the others are saying. Flash is great! You can make small Flash sites or big ones, its all about optimization and loading external smaller movies into your main Flash movie. And seeing as broadband is so available to everyone now, loading times are not an issue anyway!
The only time i would recommend a CMS (content management system) over a Flash site is if the client wants to update info themselves without paying for updates, or if its an ecommerce shop with lots of products, and even still, these would be much larger sites with lots of content...
If your site is only small, like an informational or brochure type site, then Flash is perfect! CMS systems are also currently being written in Flash so soon enough having a Flash site will be the be all and end all for web development. Its already possible to have certain dynamic content load up in a Flash site...
There are also countless numbers of amazing Flash templates out there for as low as $50, all you need to do is change a few graphics...

Oh yeah, and the point about search engines is not valid. Do a search for bwear uniforms in Google and click the first link to appear, thats my mums site Bwear Uniforms, and its coming up first in Google, completely done in SwishMax, so you see, there are ways around this... and we didnt buy any keywords from Google, just a bit of good auld html embeddding.

I'll happily do your site for you but the only thing is, i dont use Flash MX, i use SwishMax which is almost the exact same, only it's better
So, if your original files are FLA then they can only be loaded into Flash, but that may not be a problem, if your site is small, coz i could just recreate it in SwishMax...
Post up your site address and give us a look!

gline

what type of business is it that u are advertising.

i might know someone that could do it.

depends on size. need more details

aidan_walsh

Pixel8 wrote:

And seeing as broadband is so available to everyone now, loading times are not an issue anyway!

I could call you out on more of your post, but this really says enough as it is...

Pixel8

If you're saying that not that many people have it, then you're right:

According to the Eurostat Yearbook 2005, Ireland ranks the second lowest of the 15 pre-accession EU member states with penetration at 1.7pc, followed only by Greece with new members Latvia, the Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia in the worst positions.

The figures refer to penetration levels in July 2004 and since then the number of broadband subscribers here has risen to over 250,000. Denmark, Belgium and the Netherlands have the highest penetration rates while in all countries, the rate has more than doubled from 2002 to 2004, according to the figures.

If these figures are from back in 2004, then i'd say they've probably doubled again at this stage...

And if you read my post properly, you'll notice that i said broadband is so available now compared to a few years ago. There are lots more companies offering it now and its so cheap that you'd wanna be fairly tight not to get it... For those who cant get it by cable or wireless, there's always satellite broadband. There's nowhere that you cant get broadband now.

What size do you make Flash sites that they take so long to load? Only sites that try to preload the whole thing on the first page take the longest to load. Most people split the site into separate flash files and load them if and when they are needed... so the size thing is a lame reason not to use Flash. You can make a Flash site as big or as small as you want...

Can you explain these limitations with XHTML and Flash please? HTML or XHTML is a container for Flash. PHP can be loaded dynamically into Flash and so can XML in the form of RSS Feeds etc., so where are these limitations? Flash can even render text as HTML to a page, and XHTML is only an updated form of HTML with slightly different and more organised formatting...

I think EOA_Mushy hit the nail on the head.

gline

Pixel8 wrote:

there's always satellite broadband. you cant get broadband now.
.

are you nuts? Most users would not be able to afford this.
There are still some places where broadband just isnt an option at all

MarinoMark

Flash is best used to impress "media types" Classic example http://www.xdude.com Pretty impressive though, Switch on your speakers and check out "the dough"

Pixel8

are you nuts? Most users would not be able to afford this.
There are still some places where broadband just isnt an option at all

The once off equipment fee is fairly expensive alright but that wasnt my point... my point was that with satellite broadband there is NOWHERE that u cant get broadband. How could you still think that there are places you cant get broadband?? satellites cover every part of our planet!
You could even have broadband in your car in the desert with satellite broadband and a power inverter... I'd be interested to here these "places where broadband just isnt an option at all"?

A couple of the best Flash sites ive seen:

www.xpell.com
www.computerscorp.com

WizZard

Flash sites are bad, m'kay.

muckwarrior

^^^
Yes but the point is no site should need broadband. Those sites you linked are the equivalent of design masterbation. Whenever I come across a site like that i leave instantly. I don't want to watch some stupid status bar load just to watch some even stupider intro animation!

TomCo

I hate having to watch a load of poncy animations just to get into a site. If a site doesnt at least have an equivlent html version, its not worth my time.

Gordon

Pixel8 - I checked out the bwear site and the basket doesn't work.

TomCo

Yeah it says that on the news page, I would have though that was the most important part of the website.

The flash at least quadrupled the amount of time it took to navigate and the text is tiny. Plus I can't use firefox's font size thing, or print pages. Flash is really terrible, the day the internet becomes all flash is the day I stop using the internet.

Archytas

Pixel8 wrote:

my point was that with satellite broadband there is NOWHERE that u cant get broadband. How could you still think that there are places you cant get broadband?? satellites cover every part of our planet!

Sorry to jump in but...... WRONG!!!!!!!!

And even wit BB - Flash is ok for a banner or whatever but for a whole site? Waste of money(for site owner) and bandwidth(for me).... plus unreadable for screenreaders... But thats a fight for another day. Have to say I dont like flash sites....

Pixel8

hehe, well each to their own, seems like there are a lot of people that dont like Flash (or is it Macromedia) on these boards but why dont you all read the comments on that Flash is Evil site that WizZard posted up: http://www.dack.com/web/flash_evil.html

Most of the comments at the end of the page are all in favour of Flash and just go to show how many lies are being spread about it that you all obviously believe... Older Flash sites can be very annoying, i agree, but thats to be expected, there are also a lot of sites out there that work better with Flash, coz they'd look and feel too boring and empty if they were just html.

To be honest i dont have a problem with Flash or any other web based language, and why would anyone? They're all good for various different functions, it all depends on what product or service your company sells, simple as that, and its finding the balance between design, functionality and content that is the hardest part coz there are lots of ways to do the same thing in web languages...
Most sites these days have Flash headers with a PHP site for the main content, which works well but there are then limits imposed with this method that wouldnt exist if it was all Flash, and also vice versa; if it was all PHP and no flash.

I'd recommend a PHP site with Flash header to anyone that's selling over, say, 50 products online (my mums Bwear site was my first Flash site and since then we've gone down the OsCommerce route coz now she wants to sell online which is way more convenient to do through a PHP CMS than Flash).
Most companies that sell online would have either hundreds or thousands of products so the PHP with Flash header suits those sites best, but if you're a company that sells a small number of much higher priced products, then Flash is more suited to those types coz they want their fewer amount of high priced products looking as good as they can, Flash does this best and nobody buys something that costs over about 10,000euro online.

Like i said in a previous post, Flash can be as fast or as slow to load depending on the designer and how many bitmaps he has emebedded in the Flash file. It's possible to load bitmaps externally into a flash movie which is basically exactly like a HTML page (i didnt do this with the Bwear site)
But a Flash file with only vectors graphics and text would load very fast!

I used to hate Flash too, back when Java and Flash just came out, but actually they're all great! You cant actually slag a computer language for a site that you dont like just coz its written in it, thats just ridiculous...

muckwarrior

Like talkin to a brick wall tbh.
To quote one of the comments you mentioned:

i think the point you missed was the fact that 94% of net users are useless morons. people that can't even read off a screen and will end up calling tech support if they get a JS error on a page. i'm not into e-biz and all of that dying mule, but i love to use flash for making arsty fartsy stuff.

This seems to be the typical mentality of flash designers. They dont give a sh1t about the users, they just want to make somethin that they think looks cool! Generally speaking people want to do 2 things on the web, read information or buy stuff. If I want to buy a CD or whatever do I want to watch some cool animation first? I don't f*ckin think so! If I want to see an animation I'll go watch the bloody simpsons!

WizZard

If it takes longer than 3 seconds to load - I'm gone. Full stop. Those sites you posted took 24 seconds on my PC (and it's fast!)
Plus trying to navigate around them was like trying to tie my shoelaces with my tongue.


Anti-Macromedia my ass, I love a lot of what they do. Flash is nice, in it's proper place - which is not masquerading as an internet site.

Pixel8

WizZard wrote:

If it takes longer than 3 seconds to load - I'm gone. Full stop. Those sites you posted took 24 seconds on my PC (and it's fast!)
Plus trying to navigate around them was like trying to tie my shoelaces with my tongue.

Well mate, if you're using a PC with Windowz, there's nothing slower than that!
Flash made sites have different user interface's because they can, if you havent got the brains to figure out a UI thats different from the norm, then go back to school...

aidan_walsh

Pixel8 wrote:

Flash made sites have different user interface's because they can

Ok, suppose I want to print something off your Flash based site, can I do that with ease? No.

Save my current location? No.

Copy and paste to a document? No.

You have to provide me all these basic functions that the browser would ordinarily take care of. The only saving grace is, if your site is predominently Flash, it probably has nothing of value on it, so these functions are redundant anyway...

Pixel8 wrote:

if you havent got the brains to figure out a UI thats different from the norm, then go back to school

If you haven't the decency to design for the majority, then get ready to lose out.

WizZard

Pixel8 wrote:

Well mate, if you're using a PC with Windowz, there's nothing slower than that!
Flash made sites have different user interface's because they can, if you havent got the brains to figure out a UI thats different from the norm, then go back to school...

Actually I use Windows - note the s - not the leet script kiddie version you seem to refer to.

And for future reference, the underlying OS has very little to do with the speed a web page is rendered at. It's down to the website designer to optimize the page/site for the target audience. Maybe you were out that day for Web Design 101?

kwalsh000

The conversation seems to have wandered off a bit. Norfork nights, flash is a great program for extras to a site and other media apps. But as you said you are on a tight budget, so going html is the best way, once the site is designed with navigation and information in mind then a basic design will do and learning how to update it yourself, even simply adding pictures or changing text can save u money in the future. Alot of talented people here would be able to fix you up a html site that is better than anything that could be done with flash,
good luck

okden

derren browns site is designed well in both html and flash. but if your not selling confusion like derren is, design your site in html. IMHO flash is way to powerfull for alot of designers using it today.

Mutant_Fruit

okden wrote:

derren browns site is designed well in both html and flash. but if your not selling confusion like derren is, design your site in html. IMHO flash is way to powerfull for alot of designers using it today.

I keep having to search for the "back" link on derren's site. It's way to feckin hard to navigate. Am i supposed to guess that clicking on the picture of him on the information page will bring me back to the main title page (took me about 20 seconds to find that link...)? C'mon, i'm not psychic here! Give me a nice navigation bar SOMEWHERE!

That'd be a good example of BAD flash i'd say.

EDIT: Hell, i don't even know what sections of his site each link goes too... thank god i amn't looking for something in particular.

clearz

Pixel8 wrote:

Dont mind anything the others are saying. Flash is great! You can make small Flash sites or big ones, its all about optimization and loading external smaller movies into your main Flash movie. And seeing as broadband is so available to everyone now, loading times are not an issue anyway!
The only time i would recommend a CMS (content management system) over a Flash site is if the client wants to update info themselves without paying for updates, or if its an ecommerce shop with lots of products, and even still, these would be much larger sites with lots of content...
If your site is only small, like an informational or brochure type site, then Flash is perfect! CMS systems are also currently being written in Flash so soon enough having a Flash site will be the be all and end all for web development. Its already possible to have certain dynamic content load up in a Flash site...
There are also countless numbers of amazing Flash templates out there for as low as $50, all you need to do is change a few graphics...

Oh yeah, and the point about search engines is not valid. Do a search for bwear uniforms in Google and click the first link to appear, thats my mums site Bwear Uniforms, and its coming up first in Google, completely done in SwishMax, so you see, there are ways around this... and we didnt buy any keywords from Google, just a bit of good auld html embeddding.

I'll happily do your site for you but the only thing is, i dont use Flash MX, i use SwishMax which is almost the exact same, only it's better
So, if your original files are FLA then they can only be loaded into Flash, but that may not be a problem, if your site is small, coz i could just recreate it in SwishMax...
Post up your site address and give us a look!

Wow Wow Wow. I could analysis your post sentance by sentance but I think there is a limit on the number of times you can say 'crap' and 'rubbish' in one post on boards.

My advice to you Norfork Nights is DO NOT get this guy to do any site for you or even to touch a computer on your behalf. The consequences could be cataclysmic.

rsynnott

My issue with designing websites in flash is that you are likely to upset the user's idea of how a user interface works. This won't make them happy. Ever tried to navigate one of those nightmares?

Pixel8 wrote:

Flash made sites have different user interface's because they can, if you havent got the brains to figure out a UI thats different from the norm, then go back to school...

No, flash makes it easy for ordinary run-of-the-mill incompetents like the authors of every flash site I've ever seen try their hand at UI design. UI design is extremely difficult; very large companies still have trouble with it. Random web-designers don't, really, have a chance.

Your bwear site is absolutely horrid, by the way. Almost impossible to navigate.

www.computerscorp.com

That's quite possibly the most annoying thing I've ever seen.

sinecurea wrote:

I've never heard of somebody designing a website based on what they like instead of what the customer needs...

Really? Artistic integrity is an old idea.

(deem standard 'The web designers circle like WOLVES' comment to be inserted here)

pred racer

gline wrote:

are you nuts? Most users would not be able to afford this.
There are still some places where broadband just isnt an option at all

Like my house you mean?? 16.8k connection speed:mad: :mad: :mad:

Pixel8

aidan_walsh wrote:

Ok, suppose I want to print something off your Flash based site, can I do that with ease? No.

Save my current location? No.

Copy and paste to a document? No.

You have to provide me all these basic functions that the browser would ordinarily take care of. The only saving grace is, if your site is predominently Flash, it probably has nothing of value on it, so these functions are redundant anyway...

If you haven't the decency to design for the majority, then get ready to lose out.

Save my current location? No. afaik, that may be correct but... I already said in a previous post that YOU CAN EASILY print off a Flash site, you moron, do i need to repeat myself?? Update your Flash player if you cant...
And yes you CAN copy text off Flash sites too, the ones that PERMIT you to. The limitation of html is that you can copy anything, which isnt very secure, im sure you'll agree...
I also said this in a previous post, Flash can render text as HTML, or atleast SwishMax can... and if its done like that you can copy and paste it as you would with any html page.
Please read and research my posts before replying with absolute bull**** comments...

Actually I use Windows - note the s - not the leet script kiddie version you seem to refer to.

Well that says it all really... windows is windowz is window$, they're all ****, or did you miss the Linux revolution going on at the moment?? Ive been using Windows since v3.1 and can honestly say that even the Amiga's Workbench was better than any version of Windows, nuff said!

And for future reference, the underlying OS has very little to do with the speed a web page is rendered at. It's down to the website designer to optimize the page/site for the target audience. Maybe you were out that day for Web Design 101?

And if you bothered to read my previous posts you'd see that i already made that point about optimisation...
Opera, Firefox and IE load pages and deal with data at different speeds to each other. Check this:

http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/browserSpeed.html

The conversation seems to have wandered off a bit. Norfork nights, flash is a great program for extras to a site and other media apps. But as you said you are on a tight budget, so going html is the best way, once the site is designed with navigation and information in mind then a basic design will do and learning how to update it yourself, even simply adding pictures or changing text can save u money in the future. Alot of talented people here would be able to fix you up a html site that is better than anything that could be done with flash,

Man, html sites are dead and gone, even updating one of those, you'd still need Fireworks or Dreamweaver, good luck trying to teach your clients how to use these programs... PHP and Flash is the way to go, updating it yourself through a browser window is much easier than updating a html site and everything is automated as well, have any of you even heard of Content Management Systems before? I will do your site as a CMS for the same price as a html site. I charge by how big a site is going to be, not what its made with so you can choose Flash, html, php, java, or whatever you like...

My advice to you Norfork Nights is DO NOT get this guy to do any site for you or even to touch a computer on your behalf. The consequences could be cataclysmic.

Cheers! And you're basing this on my first flash site that you saw? hehe, you guys are so quick to pass judgement that its just not worth even trying to educate you about anything, good luck with your careers, you'll need it!

rsynnott

Pixel8 wrote:

have any of you even heard of Content Management Systems before? I will do your site as a CMS for the same price as a html site.

:rolleyes:

Pixel8 wrote:

Cheers! And you're basing this on my first flash site that you saw? hehe, you guys are so quick to pass judgement that its just not worth even trying to educate you about anything, good luck with your careers, you'll need it!

No, no, not just on that hideous excrescence you call an e-commerce site. You're also rude and you can't speak English.

Oh, and have you any examples of good flash-based sites yet?

muckwarrior

Pixel8 wrote:

I can't conduct an intelligent conversation because I'm still waiting for my balls to drop.

Thanks dude. You've single handedly proved that people who design sites in Flash are morons. Our work here is done.

aidan_walsh

Pixel8 wrote:

I already said in a previous post that YOU CAN EASILY print off a Flash site ... ??

How much extra work goes into having to make those printouts usable?

Pixel8 wrote:

you CAN copy text off Flash sites too, the ones that PERMIT you to. The limitation of html is that you can copy anything, which isnt very secure, im sure you'll agree...

Oh I agree. Surely information that been put out on a website is something you don't want people to be able to copy. You can print it, but you can't copy it? Whats the big security problem?

Pixel8 wrote:

Flash can render text as HTML, or atleast SwishMax can... if its done like that you can copy and paste it as you would with any html page.

Which is HTML, not Flash.

Pixel8 wrote:

html sites are dead and gone

Completely explains their lack of popularity, and why Flash is proven as such a forerunner in all those Web 2.0 prototype sites, Wikis, etc.

Pixel8 wrote:

even updating one of those, you'd still need Fireworks or Dreamweaver

Notepad and a browser, thanks...

Pixel8 wrote:

updating it yourself through a browser window is much easier than updating a html site and everything is automated as well, have any of you even heard of Content Management Systems before?

Yes, I have thanks. You do realise that the majority of them render HTML from their database backends, right? Right?

Pixel8 wrote:

you guys are so quick to pass judgement that its just not worth even trying to educate you about anything, good luck with your careers, you'll need it!

Likewise.

rsynnott

Oh, it gets better; for those considering a flash website, look no further than Pixel8: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=50451428#post50451428

Lots of horrible, horrible portfolio pieces.

Including one containing the intriguing phrase "leeson court hotel offers a class of no other". No English translation provided, sadly.

aidan_walsh

rsynnott wrote:

Oh, it gets better; for those considering a flash website, look no further than Pixel8: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=50451428#post50451428

Lots of horrible, horrible portfolio pieces.

Including one containing the intriguing phrase "leeson court hotel offers a class of no other". No English translation provided, sadly.

Look Ted, HTML websites! Thankfully, he resisted the use of the blink tag...

Mutant_Fruit

Pixel8 wrote:

Well mate, if you're using a PC with Windowz, there's nothing slower than that!

Really. Personally, i'd think it'd be the fault of the browser for being slow as opposed to the operating system itself, but thats just me i suppose.

Pixel8 wrote:

did you miss the Linux revolution going on at the moment

Revolution? I still can't see linux becoming mainstream for quite a while... sorry.

Pixel8

rsynnott wrote:

Oh, it gets better; for those considering a flash website, look no further than Pixel8: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=50451428#post50451428

Lots of horrible, horrible portfolio pieces.

Including one containing the intriguing phrase "leeson court hotel offers a class of no other". No English translation provided, sadly.

Cheers for the compliments. I didnt design the LCH website, their inhouse designer did, he just gave me the graphics and text that they wanted to use, and after all, the customer is always right, i design and develop for them, not you...

Any of your own work online?

rsynnott wrote:

No, no, not just on that hideous excrescence you call an e-commerce site. You're also rude and you can't speak English.

I never called the Bwear site an e-commerce site, haha, that was my example of Flash being indexed properly by search engines, which someone said couldnt be done. I am still working on the e-commerce Bwear site which they will be changing to in the near future and i aint posting it up here...!
By the way, nice hate mail, wonder why you're getting that?

rsynnott wrote:

Oh, and have you any examples of good flash-based sites yet?

No, apparently they're all crap... any good sites you've made yourself then?

rsynnott

Pixel8 wrote:

Cheers for the compliments. I didnt design the LCH website, their inhouse designer did, he just gave me the graphics and text that they wanted to use, and after all, the customer is always right, i design and develop for them, not you...

Any of your own work online?

Good lord, no, I'm not a web designer.

And that hotel could use a proof-reader.

Pixel8 wrote:

I never called the Bwear site an e-commerce site, haha, that was my example of Flash being indexed properly by search engines, which someone said couldnt be done. I am still working on the e-commerce Bwear site which they will be changing to in the near future and i aint posting it up here...!
By the way, nice hate mail, wonder why you're getting that?

Oh, it's because I'm abrasive, rude and hold people to a higher standard of honesty than they might necessarily like.

Pixel8 wrote:

No, apparently they're all crap... any good sites you've made yourself then?

See above.

clearz

hehe bashing is funny. Hope you've learned your lesson pixel. You run with the grain on boards.ie not against it or you'll get slapped down like a bitch.

WizZard

Right, Pixel8. Post above reported for personal insults (not towards me either).

I don't know what age you are but you come across as being about 15 in your posts. Try thinking before typing.

Pixel8 wrote:

Well that says it all really... windows is windowz is window$, they're all ****, or did you miss the Linux revolution going on at the moment?? Ive been using Windows since v3.1 and can honestly say that even the Amiga's Workbench was better than any version of Windows, nuff said!

As another poster said, it's hardly a revolution. I've been using Linux since 1996 and still prefer to use Windows for certain things.
As for that Amiga Workbench quote, it depends on what you want to do I suppose.
I could probably forgive you those horrible boils on the face of the internet that are your example sites if you were designing them on something running on Amiga Workbench though.

What we are collectively trying to say is that if you can show us a complete flash site that is easy to use and navigate, is responsive, allows unhindered copying, printing and has no load times then we might concede that flash can be used to create websites.
None of the examples that you have shown have been any of the above, so far. If I was trying to convince someone that what I do is great I would have excellent examples ready for display, not third rate ones.

clearz wrote:

hehe bashing is funny. Hope you've learned your lesson pixel. You run with the grain on boards.ie not against it or you'll get slapped down like a bitch.

I don't agree with that sentiment either (even if in jest). I'm quite willing to concede that my opinions could be incorrect, if it's proven in a mature, and levelheaded manner.