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gus hansen....wtf?

  • 10-01-2006 1:21am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭


    possibly the strangest call i've ever seen from a pro poker player on tv.
    wpt bellagio "bad boys of poker" final table.
    5 left.
    gus and antonio esfandiari are roughly level chip leaders with about 450,000 or so.
    next closest has about 210,000.

    antonio raises from the cutoff (i think) with 77. i think gus was on the SB, re-raises to 100k with T8d (nothing strange here...especially for gus)
    antonio thinks for a minute and pushes all-in for over 300k more.

    looks like an easy laydown...gus caught with his hand in the cookie jar. then, he says "don't think i can lay down this ten high hand" which gets an amusing and relieved look from antonio. and then.....he actually calls. unbelievable. commentators and the crowd were in shock. it was very funny actually.
    hits an 8 on the flop of course, no help for antonio and he knocks him out and becomes a monster chip leader.

    anybody else watching it (its still on actually...4 left as i type)?
    was there any rationale at all in the call? i'm still in shock:eek:


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,434 ✭✭✭cardshark202


    He correctly puts antonio on a small to medium pair 55-77 and races.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭staringelf


    He correctly puts antonio on a small to medium pair 55-77 and races.

    how the hell does he do that? he is faced with a raise, re-raises to 100k himself, and then faced with an allin from the only person who can knock him out? how do you put someone on 55-77? that's insane. why not 99? or TT?
    or, (more likely even) JJ-AA. at the very least he's gotta think 2 overcards (which he is STILL a big dog against)...

    if he read him for 55-77 the man is a genius. although, maybe he is.....i'd just love to know how he did it.

    EDIT: oh, and even if he DOES put him correctly on 55-77, taking a 50/50 at that stage is insane. why bother? you have the table under control. you can just keep taking small pots here and there (which is what he does best anyway)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 680 ✭✭✭Amaru


    Read this:

    http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14525&m_id=65555

    You're not the first person on an internet forum to question this, and if you only look at the cards in play, then you're not seeing the full picture. Just know that Gus is one of the best tournament poker players in the world, for very good reason.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 680 ✭✭✭Amaru


    Also, i've been looking for a reason to post this article, which i think is an funny read

    http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/entertainment/13545098.htm

    I love how phil remembers exactly how much Matusow lost, but can only remember a rough figure of his own total for the flight.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭staringelf


    Amaru wrote:
    Read this:

    http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14525&m_id=65555

    You're not the first person on an internet forum to question this, and if you only look at the cards in play, then you're not seeing the full picture. Just know that Gus is one of the best tournament poker players in the world, for very good reason.


    i'm not denying he's one of the best. in fact, i think he's one of the top 3 in the world for me, along with ivey and negreanu. i still don't get it tho. here's his quote from the link you posted:

    “Many people said that it was a ridiculous call. As it turned out, it was a good call. When Antonio raised, I didn’t put him on a very strong hand; possibly, he could have a pair of fives, sixes, or sevens. I put a read on him and put him on cards that weren’t very strong. So, I eliminated the big cards. Then, it was mathematically logical. I’m fairly good at taking 10 different variations, adding things all together, and coming up with a good guesstimate of what to do. In my mind, the call looked very reasonable. It turned out right this time. That is the charm of poker. I felt I did the right thing, and it turned out to be correct.”



    i don't see how he puts him on 55-77. that's impossible. you can't do that from just a preflop raise. if you do, and you're correct you were just lucky. it was a terrible call and he's trying to justify it by saying he knew he had 55-77. it doesn't matter that he turned out to be correct. i still think its boll*x


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 680 ✭✭✭Amaru


    From some of your previous posts, i'm pretty sure you're very proficient at poker, so i'm not sure why this is hard for you to understand. Putting your opponent on a range of hands due to bet sizing, position, previous history and body language is one of the most basic elements of poker. In this instance, Gus used an excellent read to force a coinflip when he had a massive chip lead. He was getting correct odds to do it, so whether you want to call it maths based or read based, you cannot argue with either, as he made the correct decision. It was this single hand that put him to win the tournament, and see these situations arise and knowing when to take advantage of them are what seperates good tournament players from world class ones.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭The C Kid


    Amaru wrote:
    . It was this single hand that put him to win the tournament, and see these situations arise and knowing when to take advantage of them are what seperates good tournament players from world class ones.

    Matt Matros' column in January's edition of Cardplayer magazine is an excellent example of this kind of situation as is the Paul Phillips discussion thread that Hectorjelly posted here a few weeks back.

    The article can be found here http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=15093&m_id=65576&PHPSESSID=2dab39612b6c54ce1c476b99d2271855


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 288 ✭✭Tipperarymike


    I rarely post on here usually cause I have little of relevance to say, but I just had to log on about that call. I cant for the life of me guess what hansen was thinking ,it was one amazing call. You could actually see antonio going" he has lost his mind, what were you thinking". No doubt Gus is one genius at reading plays,christ I wish I had a tenth of his gift.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,937 ✭✭✭fade2black


    Personally, I think that if you're going to praise Gus Hansen's call there then you have no right to ever moan about a bad beat or especially stupid call from someone ever again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 288 ✭✭Tipperarymike


    was the hand that devilfish went out on, think he had ak suited, and the other hands were antonio, with kk , darden with a q off and hansen with a j off. He seemed to really think about calling that one but folded. Turned out he would have busted the kk as the board had two jacks. I just cant figure him out , though I think the editing of the program probably makes him look even crazier than he really is esp with the way he tightened it up heads up


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,679 ✭✭✭Daithio


    I think the most likely reason Gus made the call was because he didn't give a fcuk about the tournament. It was just one of those mickey mouse ones that the WPT makes up to make some more airtime.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 288 ✭✭Tipperarymike


    just thinking the same. Seemed that the prize was just the entry to a wpt event, though valued at 25k , I am sure Hansen had it well covered from winning the other three had had from before


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭The C Kid


    Once he has assigned his opponent to that range of hands is it not then a completely straightforward call.

    It is this kind of hand reading skills that really sets the world class players apart. The Queen high hand Ivey played heads up with ActionJack in Monaco, is another mind-boggling example of this. As are the numerous Gigabet hand histories on 2+2.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,600 ✭✭✭roryc


    I think that Gus put him on a low pair, and thought it was worth a 50/50, basically because as Daithio put it, he "didn't give a fcuk about the tournament". If it had been in the WSOP, I don't think he would have made the call.

    However, give credit where credit is due. He CORRECTLY put Antonio on a small pair, which is not at all 'impossible' as staringelf put it. I guarantee many players that post here, REGULARLY correctly put someone on a narrow range of hands (55 - 77). I know I have in the past. Its not exactly world class... I think the skill here came in actually having the balls in calling, but this may be due to not really caring enough about the outcome, as previously mentioned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    I would want to try and outdraw Antonio too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,307 ✭✭✭ionapaul


    Amaru wrote:
    From some of your previous posts, i'm pretty sure you're very proficient at poker, so i'm not sure why this is hard for you to understand. Putting your opponent on a range of hands due to bet sizing, position, previous history and body language is one of the most basic elements of poker. In this instance, Gus used an excellent read to force a coinflip when he had a massive chip lead. He was getting correct odds to do it, so whether you want to call it maths based or read based, you cannot argue with either, as he made the correct decision. It was this single hand that put him to win the tournament, and see these situations arise and knowing when to take advantage of them are what seperates good tournament players from world class ones.
    One thing we should remember though, what Gus *says* his thought processes were before making a decision, and what Gus's thought processes actually were, are surely not always identical! I've heard premiership footballers who've scored fantastic-looking goals from outside the box claim afterwards that 'oh yeah, I saw the keeper off his line and slotted it into the top left corner', when it was plainly obvious the fantastic-looking goal was actually a cross gone wrong! It is in the premiership player's long-term interests to market himself at every opportunity, to boost interest in him, make him seem invaluable to his team, etc... Likewise, it is in every pro poker player's long-term interests to market himself at every opportunity, to ensure the TV cameras stay rolling, he has sponsorship and he is feared. What else would Gus have said about this hand to a journalist, other than 'I put him on a small-to-mid pair'?

    Please note I'm not saying anything about his skill as a tournament player, I'm just saying that it might be fair to view any professional's analysis of their decisions or performance with a pinch or two of salt...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭Imposter


    He may also know more about esfandiari's play and realised that reraising here is more likely to be a hand that doesn't want calling than a top hand. After all surely slowplaying a monster would be correct against Hansen *most* of the time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    Imposter wrote:
    He may also know more about esfandiari's play and realised that reraising here is more likely to be a hand that doesn't want calling than a top hand. After all surely slowplaying a monster would be correct against Hansen *most* of the time.

    Why would you slowplay hansen if he doesn't fold? :D


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    I think that Hansen not caring much about the prize makes more sense. The usual "Player A is world class so don't question him" baloney does not explain it.
    I still love his poker tip on the poker channel though - "Stick with the Aces and Kings and leave the other hands to the pros"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 bekele


    its crap play in any tournamanet where he cares about survival. I can only assume he plyd his hand that way because ....

    1/ he puts antonio on a range of hands like 44-JJ with 88 & TT & JJ more unlikely. [JJ more unlikely coz antonio probably wouldnt want to avoid a call as much as he seems to. 88 and TT are unlikely for obvious reasons]. So he figures he's 50/50 most of the time. he's getting about 2/1 for the final call so in a cash-game EV sense its just about worth it. AA and KK/QQ are unlikely given the way A played and unpaired cards dont re-raise Gus' initial bet.

    2/ he doesnt care about the game. If he did survival would be paramount here. Winner gets a 25k seat, right?

    3/Antonio probably gave himself away when Gus declared "i dont think i can lay down a 10 high". Gus then knew that A didnt have a monster.

    4/MOST IMPORTANTLY - he's engineering a table image. Gus is very clever at promoting a certain impression of himself. If he calls and loses, his reckless & loose image is in tact. If he wins his loose & lucky image is upheld. Its a +EV play in the long run - he can exploit this image in later games and sell additional merchadise/books etc.

    Whatever Gus said about the hand afterwards i doubt he really had such a narrow range of possible hands as 55-77. I doubt he felt he was truely 50/50 - more like 60/40 but, hell, he had an image to protect.


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