A few hands, call or fold

ianmc38

OK, scenario 1: i'm monster chip leader. I've 36k outta 48k. 3 left. Payouts for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, so everyone is in the money. The 2 short stcaks have about 6k each.

Blinds are 400/800.

I'm the BB, get dealt 56. Villain(UTG) calls. SB folds.

Flop comes 246. Villain pushes.

Call or fold?

Analysis of the villains play is that he is tight aggressive. Have seen him raise preflop with any 2 picture cards. He has already lost all his chips, when calling an all-in bet with AQ on a dead flop, so it's quite hard to determine his range here.


Scenario 2: Same tourney, but this time it's headsup. Same villain. Blinds now 500/1000.

I've about 30k. Villain has 18k.

Get dealt AT when on the BB. Villain minraises. I smooth call.

Flop comes JJT. Villain pushes.

Call or fold?

Iago

call both

super_furry

Call the first, call the second depending on your read on him.

Amaru

Hand 1: Easy call. Top pair, any kicker(with an inside straight draw to boot) is generaly good short handed, and calling here doesn't adversely affect the stack sizes. Calling and losing means you still have him outchipped 3 to 1 and can still bully him if you know how, while calling and winning moves you 1 up the money, with an almost unbeatable stack.

Hand 2: Slightly trickier, and depends on how experienced the pusher is. If the player is very inexperienced, he could be pushing with his Jack, not knowing how to get maximum value for them. However, they could also easily be pushing with a medium pair, or a ten with a worse kicker. In the end, there's no definitive answer, and it comes down to your read.

EDIT:, just noticed its heads up, not a full 9 players. I'm leaning a lot more towards a call here then.

Ste05

call both... especially the first one..

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

OK, scenario 1: i'm monster chip leader. I've 36k outta 48k. 3 left. Payouts for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, so everyone is in the money. The 2 short stcaks have about 6k each.

Blinds are 400/800.

I'm the BB, get dealt 56. Villain(UTG) calls. SB folds.

Flop comes 246. Villain pushes.

Call or fold?

Analysis of the villains play is that he is tight aggressive. Have seen him raise preflop with any 2 picture cards. He has already lost all his chips, when calling an all-in bet with AQ on a dead flop, so it's quite hard to determine his range here.


Scenario 2: Same tourney, but this time it's headsup. Same villain. Blinds now 500/1000.

I've about 30k. Villain has 18k.

Get dealt AT when on the BB. Villain minraises. I smooth call.

Flop comes JJT. Villain pushes.

Call or fold?

Hand one :
your much better of folding here ,you may or may not be ahead at his stage but you will get much better chane of puttin presure on the two remaining players when the two of them are in the hand.
basically you will have a btter chance of collecting the remaining chips by pushing rather than calling a push.
i would avoid any confrontations here to double some one up esp if its on a call rather than a raise.

hand two:
it depends how good ur HU play is to be honest.if you think you can outplay him then i would give this one a miss even though its a close one.
if not there is nothing wrong with calling.
chances are his either on a AK or AQ or a smaller pair than T.if he had J he would not be laying it like that.
against QQ KK you still have something like 6.5 outs.
against AA is unlikely seen as you have an A.

Norwich Fan Rob

i would call definetely call both of these given the circumstances u have outlined.

careca

I would call the first one.

Second one really depends on what happened in the first one. If you called the first one and he had an overpair, he knows you are going to call with any bit of the flop and could easily be betting his J. If you folded the first one he could be trying to push you off it again. So, if you called the first, fold the second and if you folded the first, call the second. LOL.

jimbling

ianmc38 wrote:

Analysis of the villains play is that he is tight aggressive. Have seen him raise preflop with any 2 picture cards. He has already lost all his chips, when calling an all-in bet with AQ on a dead flop, so it's quite hard to determine his range here.

I may be missing something here, but how is that a description of a tight aggressive player? More loose aggressive surely.

ianmc38 wrote:

OK, scenario 1: i'm monster chip leader. I've 36k outta 48k. 3 left. Payouts for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, so everyone is in the money. The 2 short stcaks have about 6k each.

Blinds are 400/800.

I'm the BB, get dealt 56. Villain(UTG) calls. SB folds.

Flop comes 246. Villain pushes.

Call or fold?

I don't think this is the obvious call people seem to think. Firstly the flat call from UTG for 1/6th his chips?? I would say a med pair, and he wanted to see a low flop - or perhaps a high pair, and was hoping the other shortstack went all in.

You don't mention if its a rainbow or not, its poss he is on a flush draw (was he the type to call with suited connectors etc). But no matter what way you look at it, its def not an auto-call. I would be more inclined to agree with Gholimoli on this one - with your stack you can easily put pressure on them via raising - not calling.

ianmc38 wrote:

Scenario 2: Same tourney, but this time it's headsup. Same villain. Blinds now 500/1000.

I've about 30k. Villain has 18k.

Get dealt AT when on the BB. Villain minraises. I smooth call.

Flop comes JJT. Villain pushes.

Call or fold?

again, It really does depend on your feel for the guy - and from your comments about his all-ins / calls with just high cards I would be inclined to call this.

then again, if you feel this guy is a bit of a tool, and you easily have the beating of him then let this one go - he could just have gotton lucky and feels the overbet will get you to call (this happens quite I lot I find)

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

call both... especially the first one..

im surprised at the amount of people who have suggested to call the first hand as if its a no brainer.
the villian has got 6K left,3 handed ,he decides to just call the BB for 800.
what range do you put him on?
any unpaird A ,he would have pushed or fold.
any K that is worth playing is worth a push.
22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99,TT push.
he is either a stupid player or slow playing a big pair(big enough to beat the board).
if you getaway from the pot you will have pretty much your 36K and villian will have 6800.no reall changes at all.
if you call and loose you will have 30K ,12K ,6K .
the 6K will know he has no hope now but to get lucky and will start a short stack bully session .
if you have both players at the same level of stack,then they will both have the second place to hang on for which will make it much eaiser for you to bully and put the pressure on them.
about a week ago i was in the same situation with 38K and 5 players left and next person after me had 12K.it tooke one bad CALL(bot raise)from me for me to go out on 5th.
big stacks like this are a powerful tool to have but you gotta know how to use it best or else your just letting your chips fly.
IMO in situation like this a big stack is much better used on putting the pressure on as oppose to calling.

ianmc38

Firstly, both flops were rainbow.

I also forgot that a few hands prior to these, i called his all in of 3K with with AJ sooted. he turned over KJo and hit a K on the river.

Hand 1 was extremely marginal for me, but in the end i called. I was thinking that i had lots of outs as i can still hit 2 pair, trips or the gutshot to beat him. I put him on any A rag or any 2 face cards. He turned over a pair of kings, which i had to appluad, cos it was a great play on his behalf and a bad read on mine.

Hand 2 was another tough one. i didn't think he had a J, as based on the smooth call with KK i thought he'd check a J to me. I was thinking he'd do the same with an overpair. So i had him on an open-ender or else AQ or AK.

I called and he turned over AKo. Turn is a Q and i'm on full tilt now, constantly replaying the AJ vs KJ hand in my head.

Next hand comes. I get KdTd on the SB and call. He checks. Flop comes K48. I bet half my stack and he raises the rest of it. I call and he turns over AK. My KT doesn't improve and i get €400 instead of €800 when at one time i had 86% of the chips in play. <sigh>

RoundTower

Gholimoli wrote:

im surprised at the amount of people who have suggested to call the first hand as if its a no brainer.
the villian has got 6K left,3 handed ,he decides to just call the BB for 800.
what range do you put him on?
any unpaird A ,he would have pushed or fold.
any K that is worth playing is worth a push.
22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99,TT push.
he is either a stupid player or slow playing a big pair(big enough to beat the board).

So either you're ahead or you have 9 outs twice to win with top pair and a straight draw, and there's an excellent chance given all the information that the villain is indeed a stupid player. I probably call the second hand, heads up is about knowing your opponent (even 10 hands with him should be enough to tell you what to do here).

staringelf

Gholimoli wrote:

im surprised at the amount of people who have suggested to call the first hand as if its a no brainer.
the villian has got 6K left,3 handed ,he decides to just call the BB for 800.
what range do you put him on?
any unpaird A ,he would have pushed or fold.
any K that is worth playing is worth a push.
22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99,TT push.
he is either a stupid player or slow playing a big pair(big enough to beat the board).
if you getaway from the pot you will have pretty much your 36K and villian will have 6800.no reall changes at all.
if you call and loose you will have 30K ,12K ,6K .
the 6K will know he has no hope now but to get lucky and will start a short stack bully session .
if you have both players at the same level of stack,then they will both have the second place to hang on for which will make it much eaiser for you to bully and put the pressure on them.
about a week ago i was in the same situation with 38K and 5 players left and next person after me had 12K.it tooke one bad CALL(bot raise)from me for me to go out on 5th.
big stacks like this are a powerful tool to have but you gotta know how to use it best or else your just letting your chips fly.
IMO in situation like this a big stack is much better used on putting the pressure on as oppose to calling.

its still an easy call regardless. you have top pair and a straight draw. you can aford to lose. if you win you're surely taking first place. if he slowplayed AA or KK then good luck to him but you can't just give him credit for that outright. even if he did, you're not exactly dead (you have 9 outs with 2 cards to come).
he doesn't have the straight - he wouldn't have pushed like that. i'd say he's on a draw or has middle pair maybe. still an easy call tho. you're the chip leader - you shouldn't be bullied off top pair at that stage of the tournie.

second one is also an easy call. he wouldn't play a J in his hand that way. if he has an overpair so be it. i'd say he has QK or something. still an easy call tho.

Iago

Gholimoli wrote:

im surprised at the amount of people who have suggested to call the first hand as if its a no brainer.
the villian has got 6K left,3 handed ,he decides to just call the BB for 800.
what range do you put him on?
any unpaird A ,he would have pushed or fold.
any K that is worth playing is worth a push.
22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99,TT push.
he is either a stupid player or slow playing a big pair(big enough to beat the board).
if you getaway from the pot you will have pretty much your 36K and villian will have 6800.no reall changes at all.
if you call and loose you will have 30K ,12K ,6K .

and if you call and win you will have 42K against 6K headsup...

even against an overpair you've a 36% chance of winning this hand so you have the pot odds to call. Combined with the additional $ for removing him and the fact that you are more than likely going to win in that heads-up situation I think you have to call, especially because if he's an average player then he could easily be playing almost any two suited connectors or A4;A2 badly...I call here everytime.

Having now seen how the two hands played out, I still think that calling is the right option in both hands. You got unlucky a couple of times against this guy and unfortunately that's the way it goes sometimes.

I understand the point made about keeping the two stacks at the same amount and therefore increasing your bullying opportunities, but when those stacks are so low, (less than 8*BBs and dropping) I think those opportunities are few and far between.

Gholimoli

Iago wrote:

and if you call and win you will have 42K against 6K headsup...

even against an overpair you've a 36% chance of winning this hand so you have the pot odds to call. Combined with the additional $ for removing him and the fact that you are more than likely going to win in that heads-up situation I think you have to call, especially because if he's an average player then he could easily be playing almost any two suited connectors or A4;A2 badly...I call here everytime.

Having now seen how the two hands played out, I still think that calling is the right option in both hands. You got unlucky a couple of times against this guy and unfortunately that's the way it goes sometimes.

I understand the point made about keeping the two stacks at the same amount and therefore increasing your bullying opportunities, but when those stacks are so low, (less than 8*BBs and dropping) I think those opportunities are few and far between.

The pot before the push is 2000.
Villain pushes 5200 in to the pot so it costs hero 5200 to win 7200 which is 1.3:1.
Providing the villain does not have a set or straight, here has 9 outs 2 times which is about 2:1 against (looking at it kindly) .how does here have the odds to call?
Even if the hero did have the odds to call, 65% of the time he will loose and double the villain up. thats very bad, considering he can almost surely find better spots to put the two remaining player under pressure at the same time.
How many times have you been on that kinda situation where you have folded a hand that you would normally push with but just because you were waiting for the other dude to bust?
Hero does not need to take that kinda gamble now, but the villain does. I would take 36% chance here if I was the villain but no way as the hero.
Think about it, next hand hero gets dealt 72; he pushes for 6K, what are the chances of him getting called? Very slim (maybe 10% as the remaining players would not call with less then top 10% of the cards) .if he does get called he can win so the added EV from the FE makes all the difference.

ianmc38

Thats assuming the villain doesn't have two overcards which as seen by his previous play is a possibility.

Ste05

The first is an auto-call for a number of reasons.
1) No matter what he possibly could have, you have outs to win this hand.
2) If you lose *shrugs* big deal - just go back to bullying, nothing really changes, except they know not to push without a hand in future. Making them slightly easier to read. You're the boss of this table, why will this one little hiccup make any difference.
3) If you win the hand you're almost guaranteed to win the tournament.
4) If you fold, exactly what are you going to call a push with?? You'll be bullied around very quickly otherwise. You have top pair, and loads of outs to improve if by you are behind.

Is the plan to wait for trips or Aces to call them all-in??

CONTROVERSIAL MOMENT OF THE POST: Even if I knew he had the KK here, I'd still call this bet.

I'm not sure I articulated this terribly well, I might try again later if the meaning is missed. Long Day in work..... Head Fried.....

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

The first is an auto-call for a number of reasons.
1) No matter what he possibly could have, you have outs to win this hand.
2) If you lose *shrugs* big deal - just go back to bullying, nothing really changes, except they know not to push without a hand in future. Making them slightly easier to read. You're the boss of this table, why will this one little hiccup make any difference.
3) If you win the hand you're almost guaranteed to win the tournament.
4) If you fold, exactly what are you going to call a push with?? You'll be bullied around very quickly otherwise. You have top pair, and loads of outs to improve if by you are behind.

Is the plan to wait for trips or Aces to call them all-in??

CONTROVERSIAL MOMENT OF THE POST: Even if I knew he had the KK here, I'd still call this bet.

I'm not sure I articulated this terribly well, I might try again later if the meaning is missed. Long Day in work..... Head Fried.....

he dosent really need to CALL any pushes with out a good hand at all.
so you think the best way of playing a big stack and taking advantages of it is so you can CALL more pushes when your behind?
why would you ever take a risk when your behind?i think thats waistful big stack play.
you should take the worst of it in a bet in a tourny play ,only because time does not allow you to take a better bet later...
here he has all the time he needs to wait for better situations to put his money in.
knowing he has KK you would prob call ,what your saying is just -EV advice which is always bad.knowing he has KK you dont have the odds to call.you will loose more often than you win so in the long term your a looser.do you think thats good advice?

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

he dosent really need to CALL any pushes with out a good hand at all.
so you think the best way of playing a big stack and taking advantages of it is so you can CALL more pushes when your behind?

Absolutely not, but here I would for the reasons below..

Gholimoli wrote:

why would you ever take a risk when your behind?i think thats waistful big stack play.
you should take the worst of it in a bet in a tourny play ,only because time does not allow you to take a better bet later...
here he has all the time he needs to wait for better situations to put his money in.?

You have a massive chip lead, you have top pair, loads of outs. There's no way you can know you are behind here. If you win, you've effectively won the tournament. A better situation may not arise.

Gholimoli wrote:

knowing he has KK you would prob call ,what your saying is just -EV advice which is always bad.knowing he has KK you dont have the odds to call.you will loose more often than you win so in the long term your a looser.do you think thats good advice?

I'm not advocating always calling these type of bets, that is just terrible, but with this massive chip lead, and in this particular situation, I would. You have enough chips to call. You're about 34% to win this pot assuming these holdings taking away all flush draws. (cos they're not mentioned) I'd take a gamble like this with these chip stacks.

IMHO the +EV is made up in the possibilities of winning the whole tournament. And the increase in prize mioney. If you call and win, the tournament is yours, if you call and lose, you still have a sizeable chip lead that can bully the table with.

However here you don't know he has a big pair, if a short stack limps with a big pair, fair play to him, he won't last long.

Iago

Gholimoli wrote:

The pot before the push is 2000.
Villain pushes 5200 in to the pot so it costs hero 5200 to win 7200 which is 1.3:1.
Providing the villain does not have a set or straight, here has 9 outs 2 times which is about 2:1 against (looking at it kindly) .how does here have the odds to call?

As I see it the villians hand isn't restricted to a higher PP, I think a badly played A2:A4:A6 is also possible, as well as two face cards. I agree that a higher PP is the most likely holding but even if you were to split them out with the following breakdown

Higher PP 80%
BP/MPTK 10%
TPTK 5%
Two Overs 5%

it's about 1.1:1

my personal opinion is that the villian will have a higher PP less than 80% of the time here. If I limp into a pot here and the flop comes down 2 4 6 and when you check I push, what do you put me on? What's your calling range?Can you feel comfortable calling if you have TP? an OESD? Ax? Kx?

What if I push preflop, what's your calling range then, is it higher?


I think villian can make this move with any card paired on the board and even two overcards once the flop has come down. He's not concerned with what he has but what you think he has after a limp preflop with those stack restrictions.

I think (and I haven't looked at the math, probably just as well considering my poor grasp of it ) that even if you know he has KK the call may well be a profitable move. You can pretty much guarantee that if you win you win the tournament. The times you lose you will still win the tournament X%, finish 2nd x% and finish 3rd x%. It may well be a +$ move, depending on the prizemoney at stake and the difference between 1st and 3rd.

Amaru

Gholimoli wrote:

he dosent really need to CALL any pushes with out a good hand at all.
so you think the best way of playing a big stack and taking advantages of it is so you can CALL more pushes when your behind?
why would you ever take a risk when your behind?i think thats waistful big stack play.
you should take the worst of it in a bet in a tourny play ,only because time does not allow you to take a better bet later...
here he has all the time he needs to wait for better situations to put his money in.
knowing he has KK you would prob call ,what your saying is just -EV advice which is always bad.knowing he has KK you dont have the odds to call.you will loose more often than you win so in the long term your a looser.do you think thats good advice?

This is the beauty of tournament poker. Each event is performed over a set period of time, not over the course of your lifetime, like in a ring game. This means that the plus or minus EV you take in any one tournament does not carry over to the next one. An obvious concept, i know. So where am i going with this?

Not everything you do in tournament poker, especially with a big stack, has to be +EV. (Take coin flips, for instance. In ring games, you should avoid coing flips, as over the course of your career, they have neutral expectation. However, in a tournaments, they are integral, as each event is dependant on the one before hand.)The value of chips in a tournament is also non linear, meaning the more that you have, the less value each individual chip holds. Both of these things means that it is often correct(if you agree with these concepts) to take -cEV situations if winning those situations has positive expectaion for your tournament result.

In this situation, you can expect to win 1 in 3 times. That means,

2/3, the player will lose, reducing his favourable 6 to 1 chip lead to a still favourable 3 to 1 chip lead. This is still a great position for the OP to be in, as winning should still not be too hard to accomplish, barring a huge gap in skill or several bad beats.
1/3, the player will win, leaving him with a stack of 42k, outchipping his opponent 7 to 1. Victory is almost assured.

If you don't believe me, look at the big stack play of some of the worlds best pros, especially raymer. Read on any forum about his performance about in the 2004 wsop, and you'll here how he sucked out on a ton of people, or "got lucky". This is the view of the people who do not understand big stack poker, who do not know that actively seeking coinflips and 60/40s when you have everybody else outchipped 3 to 1 is effective big stack play. These extra chips afford you the luxury of taking -EV, so otherwise, what are you using them for?

Gholimoli

Amaru wrote:

This is the beauty of tournament poker. Each event is performed over a set period of time, not over the course of your lifetime, like in a ring game. This means that the plus or minus EV you take in any one tournament does not carry over to the next one. An obvious concept, i know. So where am i going with this?

Not everything you do in tournament poker, especially with a big stack, has to be +EV. (Take coin flips, for instance. In ring games, you should avoid coing flips, as over the course of your career, they have neutral expectation. However, in a tournaments, they are integral, as each event is dependant on the one before hand.)The value of chips in a tournament is also non linear, meaning the more that you have, the less value each individual chip holds. Both of these things means that it is often correct(if you agree with these concepts) to take -cEV situations if winning those situations has positive expectaion for your tournament result.

In this situation, you can expect to win 1 in 3 times. That means,

2/3, the player will lose, reducing his favourable 6 to 1 chip lead to a still favourable 3 to 1 chip lead. This is still a great position for the OP to be in, as winning should still not be too hard to accomplish, barring a huge gap in skill or several bad beats.
1/3, the player will win, leaving him with a stack of 42k, outchipping his opponent 7 to 1. Victory is almost assured.

If you don't believe me, look at the big stack play of some of the worlds best pros, especially raymer. Read on any forum about his performance about in the 2004 wsop, and you'll here how he sucked out on a ton of people, or "got lucky". This is the view of the people who do not understand big stack poker, who do not know that actively seeking coinflips and 60/40s when you have everybody else outchipped 3 to 1 is effective big stack play. These extra chips afford you the luxury of taking -EV, so otherwise, what are you using them for?

"not everything you do in tournoment has to be +EV" .
Ridiculous statement .of course everything you do in a tourney should be +EV .everything you do should have a positive estimated value or you should avoid doing it. Now there are different factors that determine an EV of a specific move, but ultimately everything you do should have +EV. Sometimes that means taking the bad side of a coin flip when you don’t have the odds but can afford it, but this does not mean you’re making a –EV move. It just means that you think you can gain the EV your missing from the odds, in another way. for example in this situation you can argue that even though you don’t have the odds to call ,but the EV your loosing by calling is made up for by the fact that if you win your heads up with 42K chip lead.
The difference between cash games and tourney is not that in cash games you should always take +EV and in tourney it’s ok to take –EV, not at all. This is absurd.
The difference is that in cash games the odds on the bet should be the primary consideration and the single most important factor to be considered, but in tourney there are other important factors to be considered.
You talk about Raymer taking the worse of it with big stack but there is a difference in calling when your behind and pushing .when pushing you have FE ,a huge FE in fact when big stacked, because you can eliminate any one in one hand ,so they know if they call they better have it. and if they call ,you can still win the hand. Your EV is the EV from your FE and the EV you have from winning the hand. If you call a push you have only one way of winning and that’s to show the best hand.
Also taking a coin flip is a lot different than taking a 35% 65% shot.
Effective big stack play is putting people on a pressure, making bets they can not afford to call even though they know that’s exactly what you’re doing. When some1 goes all in against you, you’re not putting them under pressure by calling.
The argument your making for being a 42K to 6K chip lead if you win is somewhat valid but IMO you have a much better chance of taking the remaining chips,when both players are after the second place.
Think about it, for example 3rd place pays 2000,second pays 3700 .
Both 3rd and 2nd have the same stack of 6K.
Chip lead pushes with anything at all, what would you call with? I would hope the answer to that is very very little.
Now which situation do you think is better to be in and contains less risk?

Amaru

Your argument about FE is completely moot. If your chip stack is above the median in play, then all chips above that median are effectively useless. You gain no more FE for every chip above that. Does the big stack now have less FE because he lost the call, meaning that he now only has the competition outchipped 3 to 1? Is he any less threatening?

Alright, i'll make my example simplified. Say you have 100k, and both other stacks have 1K. One of them pushes. Would you then wait for a premium hand to call them?

NickyOD

Hand 1. Fold. The worst hand your oponent could have is top pair with a better kicker.

Hand 2: He doesn't have a jack. If he has QQ-AA so be it. I call.

Gholimoli

Amaru wrote:

Your argument about FE is completely moot. If your chip stack is above the median in play, then all chips above that median are effectively useless. You gain no more FE for every chip above that. Does the big stack now have less FE because he lost the call, meaning that he now only has the competition outchipped 3 to 1? Is he any less threatening?

Alright, i'll make my example simplified. Say you have 100k, and both other stacks have 1K. One of them pushes. Would you then wait for a premium hand to call them?

Im beginning to think you have no idea what FE is.
Where in my post did I ever say that you will have less FE with 26K than you would with 36K.your going on about some fancy talk about the value of chips etc.
You have FE when you push and not call, simple as that. and when you have FE you have two ways of winning rather than one and that is always higher EV.
Your example about 100K just shows that you don’t understand the arguments at all!

Amaru

I understand perfectly what FE is, it is you that misunderstands my argument. I'm not talking about how calling gives you FE, my point was that calling in no way affects your FE on subsequent hands.

Furthermore, my example wasn't even about FE, it was about -ev big stack decisions.

So tell me again how i don't understand the argument.

ianmc38

Now now ladies, put those handbags away.

Gholimoli

Amaru wrote:

I understand perfectly what FE is, it is you that misunderstands my argument. I'm not talking about how calling gives you FE, my point was that calling in no way affects your FE on subsequent hands.

Furthermore, my example wasn't even about FE, it was about -ev big stack decisions.

So tell me again how i don't understand the argument.

Amaru no offence but i think your poker logic is flawed IMO.
you seem to know the different concepts but get a bit confused when putting them together.
you speak very certain about things ,and in poker things are hardly ever certain and as they say poker is a game of incomplete information.
i saw your reply to the A3s hand that made the flush by the river with a paired board.
The advice you gave on the hand(not how he played the hand but to call or raise) was simply wrong.
Now im not saying im better or i understand better but i will not try to defend my argument at all costs. Think about it and read what others have to say, don’t think about how you can back up what ur saying but the argument as a whole.

Amaru

I would point you to the fact that the logic i follow when playing tournament poker is also followed by some of the best tournament players in the world. It needs no defense because its results speak for themselves. The concepts taken at face value seem ridiculous, and it takes seeing the practical application of them before you can really appreciate them. Also, the things i speak on with certainty, are certain, like stack sizes before and after any specific action. The imperfect information part of poker comes from not knowing an opponents whole cards, but you can make a fair guess at his holding and work out the maths from there.

FWIW, i still stand by my line on the A3 hand, and judging by how many respectable players on this site took the same line, I'm content that folding or raising is still the correct play. If you think its "simply wrong", then thats your opinion.