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Traditional Martial Arts
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09-01-2006 2:12am#1
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Would you be one of these four likely lads ?
I would remind you that one samurai took out three of these boyo before a cowardly attack from behind killed him. Thats aikido vs ninpo
It might be nice to anctually provide a bit of info as well:
The offical genbukan site is http://www.genbukan.com
There is irish site but its a bit *ahem* bare: http://www.genbukan.ie
Additionally for those of you on the northside there is another genbukan dojo which has just opened in the raheny area.0 -
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I know there are!ninjawitatitude wrote:Pma, there are three schools in Cork. Two in city centre and one in Blarney. Details are on the website.
There is one on the Tuesday nights in the hall I teach in
From looking at the site I see that it was Martin I trained with all those years ago! The Kung Fu school I was with at the time had him do a seminar! WE also had Kung Fu Korner and Martin came in alot at the time!! Sound bloke!!0 -
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Rev Hellfire wrote:opps got my geography off it is griffith avenue I was thinking off.
Careful Cabelo or this will be u, this is ninja stuff.
I for one will be watching the shadows on the way home tonight.
It's cool Rev, I did Ninjutsu for a bit mysel'... I can fend off those sprightly wee mans if it means losing my heid.
I must say though, in my time doing Ninjutsu I never heard tell of scrolls or anything. It all sounds a little "Complete the quest and use the scrolls to unlock power!" to me. I don't mean to offend but sin é.
Also, re: the video... anyone else not entirely convinced? Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not in the game as long as the rest of the lads.0 -
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Jees man the only thing I really remember about it was the flips and that stance they went into with the hands held out!Andrew_M wrote:Paul,
I was at that seminar, and from what i remember, he was far from sound, very far infact. We were doing a stick fighting thing where you had to hit your opponent on the wrist(to simulate a cut with a sword). He went out and did a demo on Shane, and he battered the wrist off him, left his hand black and blue for weeks. Might i add Shane and myself were only 15 at the time, so hadnt the cop on to know how stupid this was.
Also, when we broke for lunch, one of his students had to stay in a kneeling position next to the SPECIAL scroll to guard it:D I find it comical looking back on crap like that. Admittedly i loved all that stuff when i was younger, SPECIAL SCROLLS, SECRET MOVES, HIGH GRADE KATAS, DEATH TOUCHES:eek: . In fairness though once you reach 16/17 you have to stop playing make believe, and either quit or go learn something good
Well thats my 2 cents, feel free to quote the hell out of it:)
I don't remember what happened to Shane? But that don't mean that it did'int happen!!
I remember the guy was totally different in the seminar than he was calling into the shop though and thats what I'm basing my 'he was sound' comment on.
I really don't remember the student sitting next to the flag either?? But I may have needed those brain cells for more important information at a later date 0 -
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I did'int mean to make it look like it did not happen bud! I really don't remember much of what we done at that seminar??Andrew_M wrote:Well paul i remember it, was talking to Shane earlier and he remembers it too, so yep in my book that means it happend.
I totally agree! I don't his student could do them either at the time??Andrew_M wrote:As for doing flips, impressive gymnastics:eek:
Just the last strike was nice! I do think that the uke went down a bit suss though!! But I did like the strike.Andrew_M wrote:Had a look at that video aswell:p Ah come on, you're a grown man, you can't actually believe that stuff will work in a fight.
Nah man! No skinAndrew_M wrote:Dont mean this as a personal attack either, it just annoyed me when you said he was sound...peace:cool:
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We have one pressure point in WingTsun and Escrima. Its called the face. Keep slamming fists, elbows, knees, feet and if you are fighting orcs, sticks, knives and swords into it and you should be ok.
Regards,
Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie0 -
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pma-ire wrote:
ROFL @ the guy falling on his ass at the end
I know ninjutsu is an easy target for ridicule and all, but this mpeg looks like something out of a looney tunes cartoon... Maybe this guy just needs some acting lessons?
And what's with the hands being held out at full stretch all about? And the kiais before striking?
On the subject of pressure points; it depends on what you'd consider a pressure point. Some people will describe PP fighting as jabbing a finger into a crevice under the collarbone designated Lung 5 or whatever. I'd consider a punch in the nose a rough example of using a pressure point. I'd consider the solar plexus, throat, eyes, sack, kneecaps and temples to be good targets.0 -
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I fully understand the situation that the moive was made in! The problem is (and this is even for the moives on my own site) that alot of people don't have faith in the effectiveness of PP's due to the soft presentation of them in action. In actual fact if the uke was hit on or near the points being struck by the "blocks" of the tori then the reaction would be evident.The uke did go down since only light contact is made. The purpose of those demonstrations is to show the technique rather than to injure the uke he/she will go down to allow for the completion of the technique where appropriate.
Colum, Could you tell me what you mean by "traditional" in this context so I can maybe reply??Regardless of pressure points existing I've never seen anyone able to effectively apply a pressure point (in their traditional meaning) in a sparring situation.You that thing for opening the guard, where you stick your elbows into their thighs. Is that not using pressure points, or am I missing something?
Here is a classic use of a PP! What I draw from your post Colum is that you may think that every point that Kyusho people talk about and use is a KO point? This is not the case, PP's are points of pain that can be used to cause a reatractive or distractive action from the body. In some people a few points can cause TKO's (stun) I've never came across someone that goes out cold from a "tap".I wouldnt consider that a pressure point no more than using the forearm saw. Its just digging a sharp elbow into someones muscle rather than a set "meridian" or location.
This is the location of the point (or the two next to it) that causes pain to the uke when you are digging in elbows to release the guard.
Also the dead leg point (GB31)
Used by Thai Boxers and school kids! These are examples of Pain Points that we would be fairly used to seeing but may not have associated them with Kyusho Jitsu.
See this the problem with the image of Kyusho Jitsu and DKI have both done much to promote it while also damaging the impression of the MA and general public.Also you dont tap the spot like many Dillman afficianados do.
PP's can be mixed into anyones fighting system. The hit rate of just basic knowledge is seen pretty quickly in that it seems that once someone just knows that there is a spot (area) in the area they are blocking/striking/grabbing they tend to hit it without thinking too much about it or changing there game plan.
They should never be left to do the job on their own! As in hitting one or two points and wait for the KO! Cause if they don't work then your buggered!!
Thats a very good point (punThey aren't taught in MMA schools cause they by and large cant be proven to work. So.... if pressure points work why not use them to KO people in the ring and make some money. )
A few months ago I found this rather interesting information...
So the Japanese UFC seem to think that PP's are a serious enough threat to ban them from the fights?Ref: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=110495
Rules
the events may be single elimination tournaments, or a series of bouts. bout lengths are at the discretion of the promoter, but championship and superfight bouts are usually 20 minutes.
fighters must wear mouthguards and groin protection.
fouls result in fines and disqualification after any combination of three fouls. fines are $500.00 for the first, $500.00 for the second, and $1000.00 for the third. all of the following can result in a foul:
biting
eye gouging
throat strikes
fish hooking
hair pulling
head butting
elbow strikes to the back of the head
pressure point strikes
groin attack
small joint manipulation
kicking a downed opponent
holding the fence
faking an injury
unwillingness to fight
throwing the opponent out of the ring.
There is a lot of BS and smoke and mirrors in the world of PP's and Kyusho Jitsu. The underlying fact is that they alone will not make you a superman, or Kane from the Kung Fu series If you don't have a serious thought out delivery system then they are just parlour tricks.
We use the TCM terms to help in location while in conversation. Some of these I have mentioned above (GB31 etc). In other Kyusho styles they take these TCM references to mean the exact meaning used by TCM and accupressure/puncture. With best times of day for most effect and combining points on meridans to effect a "KO". I am from the "Just Hit Here" camp and don't even learn many of the point names, just that it hurts if I hit it this way and will usually get this type of reaction.
Static practice of Kyusho is required at the beggining to learn location and activation. This must progress to practice in motion sparring. But within the bounds of function I have already mentioned (ie. not the only goal of your defence).
Sorry for taking so long to write 0 -
While writing my response I missed Pauls reply above me. I just wanted to say I agree completely with his interpretation and approach in regards to Kyusho and in the sense he illustrates does not represent a problem...that said...
Hi all,
Quick question, did anyone see Darren Browns Hiest Tv Special. Aside form being extremely entertaining he featured brifely what he called an esoteric martial arts trick. He convinced a group of four people that they could project their Ki, chi or anyohter name you give to energy and cause people to fall over without touching them.
Two volunteers then did this. The two people who went over later testified to feeling an overwhelming feeling to drop like they were physically puchsed over.
Darren was laughing off camera. Apparently its suprisingly easy to convince people they have paranormal abilities.
I've seen pressure points applied in all the various styles and systems, Kyusho Jutsu, Dillman's stuff, genbukan, budo taijutsu and more. I'm a third year acupuncture student and obviously have a healthy belief in the existence and movement of energy. (Lung 5 by the way is located in the cubital crease of the elbow in the depression at the radial side of the tendon biceps brachaii).
I'm a big fan of traditional martial arts and I know theory and practice of pressue point fighting. That said I DO NOT endorse it as a system of self defence. It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY, if not out right impossible to utilise in a realistic confrontation.
Many people are fascinated with points such as LU-5 (and if used in combitantion with LU-1 and LU-4 will result in a knock out) and there is a lot of mystecism surrounding them. Overloading a nerve will cause knockout - nothing really mystical there.
Can you overload a nerve in a street fight? Yes, its called a good right cross to the chin.
If I have a static co-operative opponent with no protection of the arm (except a light karate suit) I can effect a nerve knockout. Not on everybody, but on some who are receptive. (I actually demonstrate that to make a point in my classes).
You cannot do that to a fully clothed agressive opponent say in a leather biker jacket. Of course, if as suggested earlier I repeatedly hit him in the face until he stops resisting that to me is a pressure point technique.
So what has this to do with Traditional Martial Arts and the Genbukan as originaly posted in this thread.
Earlier in this thread Mr. Gordon said
"I know my ass is safe when everything goes crazy"
this represents, to me, and I want to clarify this is my own baised opinion and not indicative of the board, the single greatest threat to the safety of every traditional martial artist. I'm sorry its not true.
The reason I am writing this is not to convince anyone to stop traditional martial arts, don't they're great, but they will not train you to keep your ass safe when everything goes crazy.The Genbukan is a great system (though I admit I prefer Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu).
My problem is I see statements like that and then I see another news repots about a martial artist you got himself killed.
TMA's teach excellent principals of body movement and fantastic methods of preserving history. They do not train you to defend yourself regardless of what they may advertise.
I'm sure you are capable of defending yourself but ask yourself a question.. if you are attacked will you A). formally bow and step back into Ichimonji no Kamae then accept the attack and counter it (in keeping with TMA) or
. React instinctively and punch and kick till he's run away or you have?
Enjoy the arts for what they are not for what they aren't.0 -
Boru. its a shame you had to end your post with a stupid comment like
"I'm sure you are capable of defending yourself but ask yourself a question.. if you are attacked will you A). formally bow and step back into Ichimonji no Kamae then accept the attack and counter it (in keeping with TMA) or. React instinctively and punch and kick till he's run away or you have?"
This suggests to me that you actually dont know much about how traditional styles are taught. Anyone who does the above in a sd situation must have trained in a McDojo and not a real Martial Arts school.
No martial art works by itself. All styles, whether TMA or MMA, will only work if the person makes them work. Of course, this does require that they have been instructed properly. But there are plenty of TMA instructors out there that actually do know how to fight. And of course martial artists get beaten up, they are only human. Even MMA champions can get beaten up. No one is invincible.0 -
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By traditional I am referring to the TMA training method of practising PP skills in static situations like wrist grab escapes etc. etc.Colum, Could you tell me what you mean by "traditional" in this context so I can maybe reply??
As for the guard opener PP usage if you call it a PP attack (and lets assume you do) it must be backed up by decent ground skills and can easily be countered with experience. As JK said the old school judo stuff can be ignored if you have a low to average pain threshold especially under the influence of adrenaline. So assuming that this is an example of a PP application (which I contest) the delivery system of BJJ/Wrestling/Judo is needed to apply it as someone with no ground skills will get swept, pulled down or held before they can even posture up to a good base in the guard. And... the people who could actually apply such a guard opener, cause they have the bjj skills, dont focus their time on pressure point techniques but instead train the main higher percentage bjj guard passes.
Also I accept that the face and the thigh are valid nerve targets yet many PP instructors are pretty poor thigh kickers and face punchers (as in demonstrating them in sparring) so Hmmmmm.
Boru,
well said and excellent contribution.
Kenpodave,
dismissive as ever. I've seen many ineffective TMAs that are taught by genuine decent instructors in non Mc Dojos.0 -
This is (as stated before) the first stage of location and activation! Used at many seminars! But never progressed from due to many people only attending one seminar (if any) at most and take the imformation in that context only. Training must progress from here to make PP's practical if to be used at all.columok wrote:By traditional I am referring to the TMA training method of practising PP skills in static situations like wrist grab escapes etc. etc.
That I can refer to a point in the location used to open the guard again does not mean that detracts from the basic function of the move. Just that if you know that there are pain points in that area that can be activated in the practice of that move may add to and get a quicker reaction.columok wrote:As for the guard opener PP usage if you call it a PP attack (and lets assume you do) it must be backed up by decent ground skills and can easily be countered with experience. As JK said the old school judo stuff can be ignored if you have a low to average pain threshold especially under the influence of adrenaline. So assuming that this is an example of a PP application (which I contest) the delivery system of BJJ/Wrestling/Judo is needed to apply it as someone with no ground skills will get swept, pulled down or held before they can even posture up to a good base in the guard. And... the people who could actually apply such a guard opener, cause they have the bjj skills, dont focus their time on pressure point techniques but instead train the main higher percentage bjj guard passes.
I always say that a delivery system is required! And that means all the ranges. From your comment Colum I take it that you still think that the use of the PP is the move? No thats not what I said man! PP's can be used along with the usual movements in anyones skill set.
Why do not think that this is not a use of PP's??
Are you a good thigh kicker and face puncher? Then you would have no problem with hitting the points I've referenced!! And would be better than me at it!!columok wrote:Also I accept that the face and the thigh are valid nerve targets yet many PP instructors are pretty poor thigh kickers and face punchers (as in demonstrating them in sparring) so Hmmmmm.0 -
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