What should our hero do next?

Wombatman

Mid way through MTT
Just moved to table. No info on anyone.
Blinds 500 – 1000 with 100 ante
Hero limps from MP with Ad3d
Button calls. SB folds. BB checks.
Flop 7d 5d 5s
BB checks. Hero bets 1000 Button calls. BB folds.
Turn 6c
Hero bets 1000. Button calls.
River 2d.
Hero checks.
Button bets 5k.

Hero has 20k. Button has 47k.

What should our hero do? Comments on play up to this point welcome.

mewso

Limp with A3 suited is dubious. In the end hero has the nut flush. Now at this stage there is no point in worrying about the button having a house it's a raise of another 5k for me or possibly a push if button is likely to call it.

shoutman

i would also put in the raise hoping that the villain makes a reraise to put you all in which would be a call for me

The C Kid

Smooth call.

His calls on the flop and turn tells you he very likely holds a 5, however the majority of players with trips will raise the flop or turn. Not many players will only call twice with trips here (A5 may but it is still a risky play). As he has not raised I wouldn't be suprised at all to see if he flopped or turned a house.

I don't see many hands except for a house or perhaps A5 that he will value bet the river with as he appears to have done. If he has a weak five he checks behind imo after the diamond on the river.

If he is on a complete bluff, ie a busted straight draw, he will not pay off your re-raise.

RoundTower

Raise it up, he is more likely to have a flush or trips than a full house and with no reads you should assume he will pay you off with these hands. About your play up to that point, the less said the better.

Ste05

You want all your chips in the middle, so re-raise all-in if he'll call it. Or re-raise the min if that's all he'll call or if you think he'll re-re-raise you all-in (even though he won't call the all-in).

marius

You are either up against full house/poket 5's or nothing, i'd raise back to 10k if he comes back over you - drop them....

JoeyJJ

Yeah i'd stick 10k in the middle,

Doctor Fell

Sorry about this, I know it's off topic but I can't help it.

My question is this:
is your name meant to be read
a) wom! batman
b) wombat, man (as in "it's a wombat, man")
or
c) wombatman ( as in a super hero).

Sorry, just woke up and my head is fuzzy.

staringelf

Doctor Fell wrote:

Sorry about this, I know it's off topic but I can't help it.

My question is this:
is your name meant to be read
a) wom! batman
b) wombat, man (as in "it's a wombat, man")
or
c) wombatman ( as in a super hero).

Sorry, just woke up and my head is fuzzy.

going by his little avatar, i'd say option c. although lmao at option a.

back on topic, i'd just smooth call. you don't want to raise and have to lay it down if he goes all in ...doesn't leave you with a whole lot then. he may have a smaller flush but a good player would fold it to a raise from you. i don't think you're gonna make much more money from this hand - i think you're only getting called by a full house if you raise. its by no means a bad play to raise tho - i just wouldn't do it..

rys

What did you hope to accomplish with a 1k bet into a 5.5k pot on the turn? Make your stand with the flush draw or get out then.

I wouldn't be certain it's quads or house though, as someone mentioned. You don't say what level buy-in, but you could see a Kx suited limp from the button often enough at a lot of buy-in levels. you gave pot-odds to draw to a second nut flush or a straight, or attractive enough odds for any 2 pair to stick around.

I say flat call. If you push, only quads or house will call you. If you raise another 10k and get re-raised, you still don't know where you are and if you get flat-called and lose, you have way too much work to do to try and win it.

Amaru

I can't see the logic of smooth calling here. You either have the best hand, or you don't. If you think he has the best hand, fold, if you think you have the best , raise it up to however much you think he'll call for. If he has trips he'll still probably call.

Also, why bet on the first 2 streets, then check on the river, thereby forcing you to make this difficult decision? He can't say for certain that you have the flush, as you've been betting strong so far, so what were you hoping he'd do when you checked and he then raised strongly? If you were hoping to induce a bet, then why are you questioning what you should do when he did indeed bet?

The C Kid

What hand range do you put the villian on then Amaru, given his play through the streets so far?

Norwich Fan Rob

absolutely hate trying to limp in the ace rag from mid pos mid way through an MTT, dont understand the weak bet on the flop, cant for the life of me work out the play on the turn, and as for the check on the river, wtf..........if hes a good player smooth call, i would say u are ahead, youve shown so much weakness on every street, he might just be trying to take it away from u, if hes quite poor he might call a raise with 5x or a weaker flush.

ianmc38

I dont see any value in raising the bet on the river as you're only getting called by quads or a boat. Horrendous play on all streets.

Amaru

The C Kid wrote:

What hand range do you put the villian on then Amaru, given his play through the streets so far?

If you can put your opponent on a range of hands, then why are you flat calling? Thats a fold or raise. You're behind or you're ahead. Is the 2d on the river a scare card in some way? If it isn't, then we have to go back to the turn play.

FWIW, its hard for me to put the villain on a range, because of the way the OP played it.

Preflop, OP limps, and villain limps, with no reads, so he could have effectively any 2 cards.

Flop, OP's range is narrowed to probably a 7(possibly a pair of 7s), a 5(again, possibly pocket 5s), 64, 68, 2 diamonds, or possibly any medium pair depending on how bad he is. The flat call doesn't really tell us much with no read.

Turn, again, the bet is way too small to give us any sort of information. Either check and let him define his hand, or raise bigger and let him define it.

River, checking here tells us nothing about his hand, as the pot sized bet could mean either he made his flush, his straight draw got paired on the turn and he thinks its good now, he has trips which he still feels are ahead, he has a house, or he's trying to buy the pot.

Now, what you're advocating doing is putting a quarter of your stack in the middle just to find out where you're at. You can't afford to do this. Either you fold because you feel you're beaten, or you raise and make him pay you off with a worse hand. I lean towards raising here though.

Norwich Fan Rob

there is absolutely no way u can fold here amaru.
villian literally could have any too cards, there is no way u can put him on any sort of hand, because hero played it so badly.
He could have anything from 22, to JT suited, to 55, anything.
All heros bets are weak, saying he could have nothing.
Practically asking the villian to made a bet and take the pot yet, no hand definition to see where he stands, villian could be massively strong, making an excellent value bet, or totally weak, trying to buy a pot, that to be honest, looks like its asking to be bought, perhaps villian is representing the flush, who knows, we dont, cause of heros poor play.

On the river:
Folding is just not an option, u cant put the villian on any hand, be it a house or a bluff, cause of heros bets on every street.

Pre Flop:
Pre flop limping in with this sort of hand at this stage on an MTT is so -EV is scary, its a clear push/raise or fold situation, depending on your image, and the stack sizes of the players to act, your stack size etc.

Reasons for villians river bet:
One point however, if villian is medium strenght, ie, 2 pairs, he surely checks behind here, thats the only real info we have, to bet 5k on this river signals either nothing, or a big hand to me, what sort of hand does the villian think will call 5k, and not beat him, he is either value betting, or buying the pot in my opinion, hense the smooth call being the correct option.

Amaru

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

there is absolutely no way u can fold here amaru.

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

Folding is just not an option, u cant put the villian on any hand, be it a house or a bluff, cause of heros bets on every street.

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

Its a clear push/raise or fold situation, depending on your image, and the stack sizes of the players to act, your stack size etc..

???

Norwich Fan Rob

the push.raise or fold situation i was referrring to playing A3 from mid pos pre flop.

ianmc38

I don't see any case for a push here. Stack will still be playable if you call and lose(more than 10xBB). Push and you're only being called by a better hand unless the villain is an unbelievable moron. Terrible play on the flop and turn means that we have no reliable read on the villain as he could have any range of cards. Therefore, IMHO a flat call on the river is the best play here.

Sparky1808

A quick mininum raise or an all-in for me.

You want your chips in the middle there.

Amaru

ianmc38 wrote:

I don't see any case for a push here. Stack will still be playable if you call and lose(more than 10xBB). Push and you're only being called by a better hand unless the villain is an unbelievable moron. Terrible play on the flop and turn means that we have no reliable read on the villain as he could have any range of cards. Therefore, IMHO a flat call on the river is the best play here.

Why is it that you see cause for a call, but not for a raise? Are you not calling in the hope of winning the pot? If so, what possible disadvantage could there be to raising?

rys

damage control. most of us agree he painted himself into a corner. In my mind, there's as much chance of villian having a winning hand as a losing hand, so minimize the losses and stay in the game vs taking a non-maximum win.

Wombatman

Thanks guys for all your input. Here is how things were going in my head and the outcome.

The bets on the flop and turn were meant to confuse and not for information. I wanted to see more cards on the cheap in the hope of making my flush.

When I made my flush I though I was ahead to either a lesser flush (Kd Qd,Jd 10d etc), a straight or nothing. I think a player who flopped two pair or trips would have bet out on the flop with a flush draw on the board. This left the flopped house.

After me showing such weakness up to this point I felt most players with a lesser hand would bet the flop, even a cheeky bet with nothing.

5k looked right for all hands and again gave me no info. I pushed hoping to get a call from a straight or a lesser flush. Villain flashed the pocket sevens and it was back to the Wombat cave 112th place in main event at City West.

In hindsight I wanted to know if I could have avoided it or at least got a little more information from better bets. The more I looked at it afterwards the more the call looked like the thing to do.

I’m glad that there is debate on the push, min raise or call!

Thanks again people for the informed insight.

Gholimoli

Amaru wrote:

I can't see the logic of smooth calling here. You either have the best hand, or you don't. If you think he has the best hand, fold, if you think you have the best , raise it up to however much you think he'll call for. If he has trips he'll still probably call.

Also, why bet on the first 2 streets, then check on the river, thereby forcing you to make this difficult decision? He can't say for certain that you have the flush, as you've been betting strong so far, so what were you hoping he'd do when you checked and he then raised strongly? If you were hoping to induce a bet, then why are you questioning what you should do when he did indeed bet?

i dont agree with ,if you think you behind fold,if you think your ahead go all.
thats speaking in certain terms,but how can you be certain if you dont have the nuts and you dont know what villian has.
there is x% you may be a head in that hand and y% you may be behind.
are you loosing out if you dont bet that x% of the time even if x is very big?
absolutly not,becuase it dosent matter how much of a favorit you think you are or you know you are in here,what matters is what is % that he will call your bet with a second best hand?this is the only factor that you should consider here when raising or just calling.
in this situations i think the % he will call you with a lesser hand(A5,K5,or str) is close enough to the % that he has a better hand that yours,so i think what may loose here thoes times that your best and dont bet is gained by thoes times that your up against a better hand and have to pay more.

Norwich Fan Rob

thats why i said call, if u played the hand properly u coulda got out on the turn for cheaper, dont get amarus analysis at all, (how can it make a diff whether u call or push ????), course it makes a diff, as i said earlier, only 2 hands bet 5k on this river, a monster or nothing, only one of these is calling your re raise.

Amaru

Wombatman wrote:

Post

Your thinking on this hand is very much skewed.

First of all, you should ALWAYS be cautious drawing to straights and flushs on paired boards. With this in mind, this

The bets on the flop and turn were meant to confuse and not for information.

should point you to where you went wrong in the hand. You were trying to make a move on your opponent, but he had you drawing dead. You HAVE to raise to make him define his hand, both preflop (where he also dubiously limped with the small pair) and on subsequent streets. Your limp,min-raise, min-raise, check, line is awful, and played differently you probably could have gotten away from this hand, if you can spot the warning signs.

The C Kid

Amaru wrote:

You HAVE to raise to make him define his hand, both preflop (where he also dubiously limped with the small pair) and on subsequent streets. Your limp,min-raise, min-raise, check, line is awful, and played differently you probably could have gotten away from this hand, if you can spot the warning signs.

Agreed, pre-flop limping with a weak ace is chipstack suicide. If you feel the need to play the hand in the first place,at least raise with it.