Pat Rabbitte and 40 million Poles

mike65

So then whats the story here, is Pat Rabbitte socialist (possibly) coming out against Jonny Foreigner?

His interview in IT

"The time may be coming when we will have to sit down and examine whether we would have to look at whether a work permits regime ought to be implemented in terms of some of this non-national labour, even for countries in the European Union," he said.

In an interview with The Irish Times, Mr Rabbitte said that unless basic standards for workers were established across the EU, Irish jobs would be threatened.

The Labour leader also said that there would be no coalition with Fianna Fáil under his leadership.

On taxation, he committed himself to keeping personal and corporate tax rates at their present levels and refused to be drawn on whether he would propose any increase in capital taxation.

However, he said his party was looking at the idea of a minimum effective tax for the super rich.

On immigration, Mr Rabbitte said that the recent dispute at Irish Ferries had raised serious questions, particularly as the Government had been blocking the directive on agency workers in Europe and had also been blocking the maritime directive.

"If the EU services directive goes ahead you can establish a company in Poland or Latvia and come over here on contract and do an Irish Ferries. You get an agency to employ the workers here at domestic rates in Poland or Latvia. It is a big issue."

Mr Rabbitte said it was nonsense to argue, as Ibec and the Taoiseach had done during the Irish Ferries dispute, that the practice was confined to maritime industries.

"That is manifestly not the case. Displacement is going on in the meat factories and it is going on in the hospitality industry and it is going on in the building industry.

"What Irish Ferries has done has lanced the boil and we need to know more about the numbers coming here, the kind of work they are engaged in, the displacement effect, if any, on other sectors.

"We need to look at that because there is anecdotal evidence about it happening in construction, and happening in meat factories and happening in the hospitality industry."

Mr Rabbitte said that for the very same reasons Tánaiste Mary Harney invited Gama to come to Ireland, he did not expect there would be any outcry from Ibec about the situation because it was contributing to wage moderation.

"We can't compete now in the traditional type industries. The rate of attrition in terms of job losses has been far higher than we have acknowledged. It has been concealed by the scale of the boom. There are many positive spin-offs from the diversity of labour here now, but to say that that should for all time go unregulated I think has been thrown into question by the Irish Ferries dispute.

"There are 40 million or so Poles after all, so it is an issue we have to have a look at."

Reasonable concern for Irish workers or something less honourable? Like pandering to the trade unions and low paid Irish by playing up the 'threat' of
40 million Poles? Maybe rather than playing the "Little Irelander" card he should say thanks to the Polish and other immigrant groups for thier contribution to the Irishh economy (and culture).

Mike.

Maskhadov

I think any plan to stop Jonny Foreigner coming into the country is madness. We need immigrants both to keep the economy going and to diversify the country. We have full employment now so why try to halt immigration ?

If there isnt an over supply of labour for all areas of the economy it may harm our ability to keep growing ecomically. All those great growth figures were due to having loads of unemployment.

Restricting People from other EU member countries coming here to work is a cop out.
The leeway to do it is there but only in the short term,this looks to me to be a sap to voters who think that these guys are taking their jobs.
They are not.
Many of the people unemployed at this stage are from what I can see either people very clever at getting away with lucrative nixer work or people who cant work for various reasons or people who just simply dont want to work.
[sarcasm]
If Labour want to gather up that vote, they may invest in mini busses and sweets to get them all to the polls aswell otherwise its a lost cause.[/sarcasm]

Mr.Whistle

Earthman wrote:

Restricting People from other EU member countries coming here to work is a cop out.
The leeway to do it is there but only in the short term,this looks to me to be a sap to voters who think that these guys are taking their jobs.
They are not.

Much larger economies (note: I didn't say societies) in the EU have excluded them because of the risk to their labour market. Not recognising that risk is a cop out. Are you a gombeen employer?

Mr.Whistle

Mr.Whistle wrote:

Are you a gombeen employer?

You'll have to come up with something better that that :rolleyes:
I'm waiting...

mike65

Oh boy! "How To Make Friends and Influence People" is clearly not on your reading list!

Mike.

Cork

In an interview last week Rabbitte called for a reassessment of immigration policy in the aftermath of the Irish Ferries dispute. He said that job displacement by low-paid workers was an issue beyond the maritime sector and was taking place in meat factories, the hospitality and building industries.

“The time may be coming when we will have to sit down and examine whether a work permits’ regime ought to be implemented in terms of some of the non-national labour, even for countries in the European Union,” the Labour leader said.

These comments are disgraceful. Movement of Labour within the EU is accepted by all for years.

What is Rabbitt at?

Maybe he is bringing Labour to the far right?

Bring back Rory Quinn or Dick Spring. How do these comments sit with the Mullingar Accord?

Enda Kenny seems to be pretty silent.

Rabbitt needs to apologise for his comments and withdraw them.

Can't say, I ever had much time for the guy.

Mr.Whistle

Earthman wrote:

You'll have to come up with something better that that :rolleyes:
I'm waiting...

That's a trite response. You've avoided answering the question or the point I made.

Mr.Whistle

mike65 wrote:

Oh boy! "How To Make Friends and Influence People" is clearly not on your reading list!

No, and I don't want to conform to the blinkered views on this thread either. None of you ask why Rabbitt changed his mind on this, at least in a qualified way. He was strictly PC too until reality raised its head with Irish Ferries. The Europeans knew the risk and took precautions.

Mr.Whistle

Mr.Whistle wrote:

That's a trite response.

what did you expect me to say to your insult?

You've avoided answering the question or the point I made.

No I didn't I just recognised that you didnt read my post properly.Let me expand...
We've been giving it up the áss to the EU in terms of taking their money for decades and now we are seeing the expansion of that EU-the agreed by the member states expansion of that EU.The free movement and mass availability of labour is one of the consequences.

I'm still waiting.

Mr.Whistle

Mr.Whistle wrote:

He was strictly PC too until reality raised its head with Irish Ferries. The Europeans knew the risk and took precautions.

So you are expecting Irish business'es to move lock stock and barrell to the open seas?
Otherwise that comment has nothing whatsoever to do with the poles or any other EU citizen being here.

Mr.Whistle

Earthman wrote:

what did you expect me to say to your insult?

Why would you be insulted if you weren't a gombeen employer? There's no reason for anyone else to be gung-ho about the race to the bottom.

No I didn't I just recognised that you didnt read my post properly.Let me expand...
We've been giving it up the áss to the EU in terms of taking their money for decades and now we are seeing the expansion of that EU-the agreed by the member states expansion of that EU.The free movement and mass availability of labour is one of the consequences.

Emm...you didn't make that point in post 3. And you're confusing two unrelated issues: budget credits and job displacement. Ireland may have been a net benficiary from the budget but Irish workers haven't displaced workers in other EU states. It's not a quid pro quo.

Mr.Whistle

Earthman wrote:

So you are expecting Irish business'es to move lock stock and barrell to the open seas?
Otherwise that comment has nothing whatsoever to do with the poles or any other EU citizen being here.

Rabbitt mentions several industries where there's been job displacement: construction and meat factories for instance. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence for this, even though it mightn't reach you in Iceland. Here's one media link: http://www.dublinpeople.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=608&Itemid=49. There was also quite a large march about job displacement recently.

Sand

Emm...you didn't make that point in post 3. And you're confusing two unrelated issues: budget credits and job displacement. Ireland may have been a net benficiary from the budget but Irish workers haven't displaced workers in other EU states. It's not a quid pro quo.

They have actually, A) by travelling to other countries long before the EU, and since the EU formed Ireland has grabbed investment from other EU partners, costing them jobs to our benefit. Why do you think tax harmonisation is demonised in Ireland?

Why would you be insulted if you weren't a gombeen employer? There's no reason for anyone else to be gung-ho about the race to the bottom.

Customers certainly get a better deal from the so called race to the bottom. It wasnt so long ago unionised train drivers were seriously considering going on strike to demand more money for driving trains with more carraiges on them!

Rabbittes just playing for the nationalistic, xenophobic vote painting foreign immigrants as some sort of scab labour. As lousy as FF are, a Labour govt hostile to immigrants getting jobs in an economy where employment is shockingly low by Irish standards would not be an improvement.

John R

Mr.Whistle wrote:

Much larger economies (note: I didn't say societies) in the EU have excluded them because of the risk to their labour market. Not recognising that risk is a cop out.

Those would be the countries with much higher unemployment rates. Besides they have not excluded free movement, just delayed it. All of the old EU states will be revising their policies in the next few months and AFAIK some will be relaxing the restrictions at this point, others will be waiting a few more years.

In the countries where unrestricted access already exists (Ireland, Sweeden and the UK) there hasn't been the mass economic migration that the right wing (and now pseudo-left wing) scaremongers predicted.

Rabbite's comments were disgraceful no question, sounded just like the xenophobic crap that you typically hear from the right wingers. It was either cynical vote-whoring or just plain stupidity.

The Irish Ferries situation was unique in that they have a loophole allowing them to bypass EU and national labour laws. This is not the case for any legally employed immigrants that are resident in Ireland (or any of the other EU nations) it is the illegal immigrants and even more the illegally employed workers that are causing problems in certain sectors here and closing the borders on the new EU countries will only encourage that practice further. Strict enforecement of OUR laws on OUR employers is the best way of dealing with that problem.

Koyasan

Did anyone read that extract and detect a genuine concern that workers, foreign and domestic in origin, may be taken advantage of by either being paid less than the minimum wage, or over looked in favour of those who can be paid less than the minumum wage?

w66w66

As part of a labour movement that claims it wants to have less inequalities and less disparities in wealth in are society it's only natural that Pat Rabbitte and others on the left would be against a policy that saturates the lower paid workforce, allowing businesses to keep wages in lower income jobs artificially low, while wages in middle income and higher income jobs continue to rise.

Dr_Teeth

Without Johnny Foreigner, wage inflation would crush our little celtic tiger flat. Pat Rabbitte is a muppet. :P

meditraitor

Koyasan wrote:

Did anyone read that extract and detect a genuine concern that workers, foreign and domestic in origin, may be taken advantage of by either being paid less than the minimum wage, or over looked in favour of those who can be paid less than the minumum wage?

I Agree.

DrTeeth wrote:

Without Johnny Foreigner, wage inflation would crush our little celtic tiger flat. Pat Rabbitte is a muppet. :P

You obviously didnt reed the article,

What Pat Rabbitte was saying(for the gobshits who didnt read it, or the FFools who just want to have a dig) is that there needs to be an indept study into the movement of labour from one country to another if the workers in the country of departure are not being offered the same rights(contracted within countries in the EU zone from countries with no or low Minimum wage) as the workers within the destination country.

For example: If 300 Construction workers are hired by a company in Poland and contracted to work in Ireland for 6months at a rate of 5yoyo's per hour(legal to do this in Poland) there is a grey area within european law were this can happen, Its not just a maratime issue(Irish ferries).
Pat rabbit want to restrict the use of such labour because it doesnt fit in into the Irish Labour model which affords better working standards of both health and safety and pay!

meditraitor

meditraitor wrote:

What Pat Rabbitte was saying(for the gobshits who didnt read it, or the FFools who just want to have a dig) is that there needs to be an indept study into the movement of labour from one country to another if the workers in the country of departure are not being offered the same rights(contracted within countries in the EU zone from countries with no or low Minimum wage) as the workers within the destination country.

What Pat Rabbitte was saying (for the gobshits who didnt read it, or the pro-Rabbitte fools who refuse to read between the lines) is that there are votes for labour in urban areas if you just have a dig at the Poles and Eastern Europeans and defend it on some pretext of caring for workers...

meditraitor

Deleted User wrote:

What Pat Rabbitte was saying (for the gobshits who didnt read it, or the pro-Rabbitte fools who refuse to read between the lines) is that there are votes for labour in urban areas if you just have a dig at the Poles and Eastern Europeans and defend it on some pretext of caring for workers...

Did bertie put you up to this:D come on,
Pat rabbit using the race card, now thats pure nonesense.....

You are implying something you cannot back up... You a FF member by any chance.

Dyr

One wonders how IBEC would feel if polish companies were allowed to operate in ireland under polish accounting, audit, revenue etc laws. It would be good for the consumer i bet and thats what really matter's...

:v: < we need eddie hobbs to do a rip off poland

meditraitor

meditraitor wrote:

Did bertie put you up to this...

Yep, I'm on his speedial...;)

I don't think Rabbitte is racist. I think he could have been more careful in addressing the issue though and he left himself open to the allegation of playing the race card...and perception is often more important than what is actually being said...

w66w66

Deleted User wrote:

I don't think Rabbitte is racist. I think he could have been more careful in addressing the issue

More careful? one mention of restricting immigration, a perfectly legitimate and natural position to take for someone whose part of labour movement that claims it's wants to have less inequalities and disparities in wealth in are nation and half the nation goes stark raving mad. Can’t people not just discuss this matter in a cool and rational manner without the hysterics, the sly remarks, and the phantom economics?

Meh

meditraitor wrote:

For example: If 300 Construction workers are hired by a company in Poland and contracted to work in Ireland for 6months at a rate of 5yoyo's per hour(legal to do this in Poland) there is a grey area within european law were this can happen

This is utterly wrong. All workers in Ireland are protected by Irish labour law (including minimum wage). (There is something called the EU services directive but 1) it hasn't been brought in yet and 2) it would still give Polish workers contracted to work in Ireland the protection of Irish labour law.)

w66s66 wrote:

one mention of restricting immigration, a perfectly legitimate and natural position to take for someone whose part of labour movement that claims it's wants to have less inequalities and disparities in wealth in are nation and half the nation goes stark raving mad.

I thought the labour movement was supposed to be about international worker's solidarity and all that, not Ireland Uber Alles?

meditraitor

Meh wrote:

This is utterly wrong.

Indeed

meditraitor

Meh wrote:

This is utterly wrong. All workers in Ireland are protected by Irish labour law (including minimum wage). (There is something called the EU services directive but 1) it hasn't been brought in yet and 2) it would still give Polish workers contracted to work in Ireland the protection of Irish labour law.)I thought the labour movement was supposed to be about international worker's solidarity and all that, not Ireland Uber Alles?

Very good, I see what you did there,

I am sure that this exploitation of workers is happening, and the grey areas I mentioned are in the effectiveness of our government at tackling these issue( Zero at the moment), this EU services directive_ who enforces this?
There are plenty of irish building contractors in Dublin at the moment using European based Employment Agencies for to fill their vacancies.
Can you prove to me that these employees are being treated the same as our own. NO because the exploitation is happening and it is only going to get worse if the matter is not looked into seriously and soon.
These exploited workers are not going to complain, Poland is a relatively poor country with 40M people living in it, a good % want to emmigrate to make a better life, and fair play I hope this happens, but dont come back at me with the old "Irish people have been emmigrating for econnomic reasons for years" chestnut. Ireland of the 50s,60s,70s and 80s had a total population of 3m, how would this have effected an economy like the UK and Germany if the same % went there for work as the % of Poles that are currnetly on the Move... I'll tell you--- not very much
But if you take polands population into account this is a whole different ball game.
Put a bit of thought into it and come back
Im of for my dinner now, will come back to this tomorrow

Meh

meditraitor wrote:

this EU services directive_ who enforces this?

Nobody enforces the EU services directive yet, because it's only a proposal at the moment.

There are plenty of irish building contractors in Dublin at the moment using European based Employment Agencies for to fill their vacancies.
Can you prove to me that these employees are being treated the same as our own. NO because the exploitation is happening and it is only going to get worse if the matter is not looked into seriously and soon.

So the answer is to fix the exploitation by appointing more labour inspectors and giving them more powers, not to restrict immigration.

w66w66

Meh wrote:

I thought the labour movement was supposed to be about international worker's solidarity and all that, not Ireland Uber Alles?

Depends, some labour movements and its members are devoted internationalists, while some are primarily concerned with national and local issues. The Irish Labour party I’m guessing would be the latter, judging by the fact that their policies are predominately concerned with national issues.

mike65

Beware the Polish Plumber!

Mike.

Cork

Deleted User wrote:

I don't think Rabbitte is racist.

But the guy seems to be aganist the freedom of movement of Labour within the EU.

Is this now official Labour policy?

Freedom of movement of Labour is an accepted principle.

Rabbitt now seems to have trouble with it.

Can't remember him raising this during the NICE vote.

shuushh

he seems to be against the freedom of movement of labour in the EU when it results in poor workers rights

Koyasan

shuushh wrote:

he seems to be against the freedom of movement of labour in the EU when it results in poor workers rights

Well now, that's the impression I got from the article: That the gentleman wants everyone working within the territory of Ireland to be paid in accordance with Irish labour laws.

Regarding immigration. Does it not hold that migrant workers will only stay in Ireland if there is an actual demand for them, and that as soon as that demand dries up they will move to the next territory, as is their right, and ours, as EU citizens?

fly_agaric

Koyasan wrote:

Does it not hold that migrant workers will only stay in Ireland if there is an actual demand for them, and that as soon as that demand dries up they will move to the next territory, as is their right, and ours, as EU citizens?

Like the Turkish "guest-workers" in Germany who are still there long after the German economic growth slowed down and jobs became much more difficult to come by?

No, the migrant workers are human too - not economic production units. People have to settle down some time.

mike65

If they want to stay they can, the Turks in Germany situation is'nt realy comparible. Even Germany in the doldrums is better than Turkey for most Turks. I think Poland, Latvia etc will be pretty decent economies soon enough.

Mike.

fly_agaric

mike65 wrote:

If they want to stay they can, the Turks in Germany situation is'nt realy comparible. Even Germany in the doldrums is better than Turkey for most Turks. I think Poland, Latvia etc will be pretty decent economies soon enough.

Mike.

True. I suppose some of the migrants or their children would probably head back to their roots if the country they came from provides as much opportunity as Ireland. Like the Irish emigrants who came back after the country got richer.

I was just disagreeing with the idea that they will flit off to the next rich country with plenty of jobs (i.e. act as guest workers) if things take a turn for the worse here.

About the Turks in Germany - has Germany not given them citizenship? They are there a long time and must be well into the 2nd generation (and beyond) by now.

Cork

shuushh wrote:

he seems to be against the freedom of movement of labour in the EU when it results in poor workers rights

He seems to want work permits to control the number entering the country.

Enda Kenny seems to be mainining a silence on the subject.

monument

meditraitor wrote:

Pat rabbit using the race card, now thats pure nonesense.....

Why? Pat Rabbitte is a populist who, as Vincent Browne keeps points out, spouts nothing you wouldn’t expect from the PDs’ press office. In an interview with Browne, Rabbitte couldn’t give any substantial way which set his party from the PDs or any other party. Of course, it started when the old Sinn Fein the Workers Party crowd pretty much gained control of the Labour Party, but Rabbitte is bringing the party further right then it every has been.

samb

I don't think their should be any major policy change. All that should be done is that the labour inspectors should be expanded and the rules actually enforced. I think Pat Rabbite is right to be concerned about the services directive but I hope and think it will be ammended.

Of course, it started when the old Sinn Fein the Workers Party crowd pretty much gained control of the Labour Party

I don't know about this, please expand. To me the labour party is a responsible moderate and basically sane political party. I'm not a supporter but I can't see any of the extremism you are alluding to.

w66w66

samb wrote:

I don't think their should be any major policy change. All that should be done is that the labour inspectors should be expanded and the rules actually enforced. I think Pat Rabbite is right to be concerned about the services directive but I hope and think it will be ammended.

I can certainly see where Pat Rabbite is coming from and i don't believe for one minute that's he's been a populist or playing the "race card". But i do not believe that we need a policy change, as the number eastern european migrants will most likely drop in a year or two as other EU nations end their two year ban on eastern european migration.

Sand

Anyone see the letter in the Irish Times today from some Labour party members distancing themselves from Rabbittes remarks? Cant blame them, Rabbittes just attempting to cash in on what he perceived as a populist turn against migrant workers.

Permits are often cited as a tool by which underhand employers exploit migrant workers. If the employer removes the permit, the migrant is deported so they often endure terrible conditions to appease their employer. Rabbitte knows this so it seems clear he did not have the interests of EU citizens working here at heart. Labour have again demonstrated that they are unelectable. Unfortunately so is every other party so theyve as much chance as anyone.

monument

samb wrote:

Of course, it started when the old Sinn Fein the Workers Party crowd pretty much gained control of the Labour Party

I don't know about this, please expand. To me the labour party is a responsible moderate and basically sane political party. I'm not a supporter but I can't see any of the extremism you are alluding to.

It went something like this...

- Sinn Féin
- Official Sinn Féin (1970)
- Sinn Féin the Workers Party (1977)
- Workers Party (1982)
- Democratic Left (1992)
- merged with the Labour Party

I don’t know why the provos didn’t try this… a few splits, remaining, and a merger where the apparent little guy – practically speaking - takes over the Labour Party… and if by magic their Official IRA just went away, no decommissioning needed. When their IRA “just went away” is a good question, but who cares when so few relatively speaking know the troubled past of the Labour Party.

For examples, Proinsias De Rossa goes as far back as Sinn Féin before the 1970 split, while Pat Rabbitte joined when they were in the Workers Party stage of the re-branding. It’s totally plausible both knew nothing of the party’s links to the then Official IRA

mike65

Proinsias De Rossa goes all the way back to the mid-late 50s when he was interned for a couple of years. He always struck me a very decent fellow and proof people can change and evolve politically.

Mike.

constitutionus

well , speaking as someone who voted "no"to the NICE treaty let me be the first to say "NA NA NA NAAAA NA":D

Rabittes position on work permits is unworkable, the accession countries are in the EU now, and as such are entitled to do what ever the hell they want in terms of moving to get work just like WE are.

i love it when people try to make this a race issue when its plain to anyone with a brain that its all about employer exploitation. you notice IBEC had no problem with our immigration policy but almost had an apoplextic fit when they found out the services directorate ment they as business's would have to compete with other business's in europe on the same level as an irish employee having to compete with foreign labour willing to do the job for the minimum wage (except in IBECs case , for even less:D ). what happend there lads? you dont seem to keen on GENUINE competition now:) . i mean SURELY its good for the consumer to buy products or services for a HALF or a THIRD of what IBEC or ISME can afford to do em for. and if you cant compete ,well thats just progress isnt it? all those cleaners, hotel workers and manual labourers must be laughing their ass off now when they look at what happened to their wages and conditions now looks to be happening to their boss'es too.

its almost karma

Delboy05

Maskhadov wrote:

I think any plan to stop Jonny Foreigner coming into the country is madness. We need immigrants both to keep the economy going and to diversify the country. We have full employment now so why try to halt immigration ? QUOTE]


Why do we need to diversify the country!!!!!! Was there somethign wrong with if before...were we dropping dead on the streets because of a bad gene pool......unreal stuff!!!!!

And why does the economy have to go at full tilt...what if we settled for say, 2% less growth. Slow down and catch our breath so to speak. Let inflation in health/consturction die down, build up our infrastructure, look after the people providing the next generation of irish who have to commute for hours while kids sit in creches all day.....
Why grow at our potential every year if it means we have to take in over 100,000 immigrants each year- Germany tried that in the 50's, recovering from the war...brought in millions of turks....go ask germans about turks now....

and no i'm not racist....

DublinWriter

Delboy05 wrote:

And why does the economy have to go at full tilt...what if we settled for say, 2% less growth. Slow down and catch our breath so to speak. Let inflation in health/consturction die down, build up our infrastructure, look after the people providing the next generation of irish who have to commute for hours while kids sit in creches all day.....

Can I have some of what you're smoking? Slow down GDP *and* build up infrastructure?

Go down your local A&E department someday and count the number of Poles waiting for medical attention. Then follow up that trip with a jaunt down to your local Spar/Chipper/Lidl/Aldi and count the number of foreign nationals working and contributing tax into the system.

Delboy05 wrote:

Why grow at our potential every year if it means we have to take in over 100,000 immigrants each year- Germany tried that in the 50's, recovering from the war...brought in millions of turks....go ask germans about turks now....

And the most successful post WWII economy was...?

Delboy05 wrote:

and no i'm not racist....

Normally that phrase goes at the start rather than the finish, but congrats on the novel approach.

The_Minister

Rabitte knows he has the liberal left sowed up so he is fishing for the middle ground.

MrSinn

Culture does not exist in the global economy,culture is an unnecessary distraction to the global cause
Most wars were totally in vain,the borders that millions died for around the world are ignored now for cheap labour,we were the pawn,now we have pawns
Don't be too bothered by by our new cheap labour for now,when it starts to run short again Europe will allow Turkey to join the EU