call or fold? (HH)

impr0v · 06-01-2006 12:30pm #1

Not a very complex hand or tactical question but I think I got outplayed here, would you call or fold? How should I played it differently up to this point?
Read so far on the opponent is that he's fairly skilled, not overly loose or tight and well capable of bluffing in this scenario if he senses weakness.

EDIT: it's a $50 stt on VC

[Jan 6 11:55:53] : Hand Start.
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : Seat 1 : danatsco has $990
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : Seat 3 : impr0v has $4,000
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : Seat 5 : bull_II has $3,100
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : Seat 7 : MzSmooth has $4,070
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : Seat 8 : Silverado05 has $5,030
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : Seat 9 : sirob has $810
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : impr0v is the dealer.
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : bull_II posted small blind.
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : MzSmooth posted big blind.
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : Game [42] started with 6 players.
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jan 6 11:55:53] : Seat 3 : impr0v has Tc Jc
[Jan 6 11:55:55] : Silverado05 folded.
[Jan 6 11:55:55] : sirob folded.
[Jan 6 11:55:30] : Stakes: 150/300 Current level: 5 Next level in: 7 min.
[Jan 6 11:55:31] : danatsco folded.
[Jan 6 11:55:33] : impr0v called 300 and raised 300
[Jan 6 11:55:37] : bull_II folded.
[Jan 6 11:55:38] : MzSmooth called 300
[Jan 6 11:55:38] : Dealing flop.
[Jan 6 11:55:38] : Board cards [5c Qs Jh]
[Jan 6 11:55:41] : MzSmooth checked.
[Jan 6 11:55:43] : impr0v bet 600
[Jan 6 11:55:45] : MzSmooth called 600
[Jan 6 11:55:46] : Dealing turn.
[Jan 6 11:55:46] : Board cards [5c Qs Jh 5s]
[Jan 6 11:55:48] : MzSmooth bet 2,870 and is All-in
[Jan 6 11:55:50] : Stakes: 150/300 Current level: 5 Next level in: 6 min.
[Jan 6 11:56:33] : It's your turn.
[Jan 6 11:56:33] : impr0v has 10 seconds to respond.

Amaru · 06-01-2006 12:34pm

What are you hoping he has?

Waylander · 06-01-2006 12:37pm

I dont like the min raise preflop or the half pot bet post flop. Preflop he pretty much has value to call with any two playable cards, and after the flop if he has any slice of it I think he is likely to call.

impr0v · 06-01-2006 12:37pm

A high at best!

His timing was all about provocation or representation, called the 600 and all-in the second the 5 hit the turn.

super_furry · 06-01-2006 12:41pm

Fold. With just a pair of jacks and no draw, you'd be taking a massive gamble.

impr0v · 06-01-2006 12:42pm

Waylander wrote:

I dont like the min raise preflop or the half pot bet post flop. Preflop he pretty much has value to call with any two playable cards, and after the flop if he has any slice of it I think he is likely to call.

I think the min raise was alright as it could easily mean a strong hand and looking for callers, given my position, however I think I should have been stronger post-flop and got a better read on what part he hit, if any.

Waylander · 06-01-2006 12:50pm

With a min raise he has odds of 3.5 - 1 to call. For me that is virtually an autocall, and if you did have a monster and I hit, you would get raped. I hate min raises preflop, they build the pot, but leave you to open to getting outdrawn. Also you did not have a monster so you did not want a caller so I think a 3 or 4 BB raise would be much more effective here.

Norwich Fan Rob · 06-01-2006 12:52pm

he sensed weakness, u are weak, u cant call, well played him, doesnt matter what he had

Ste05 · 06-01-2006 12:58pm

impr0v wrote:

I think the min raise was alright as it could easily mean a strong hand and looking for callers, given my position, however I think I should have been stronger post-flop and got a better read on what part he hit, if any.

I really don't like this thinking. A min-raise is never good really. Especially against a BB who has you out chipped.

You need to pitch your bets on all streets so that your opponent is risking more than you are. In this case it's a fairly routine play by the BB and he could have any 2 cards. I would never let someone steal my BB for the minimum unless I am in trouble. Here he's getting odds both pot and implied to call with any 2. This flop bet, looks weak and unless it works i.e. representing a big hand. You simply have to fold to a re-raise or a flop call and then leading the turn.

This min raising is a move that has become so over-used lately, and it's pretty much a guaranteed way of picking up chips for me these days when I'm in the BB with rags and a similar size stack tries it on. It's always so obvious. Especially when the blinds are getting expensive. Just call pre-flop, then either call the weak flop bet (they always bet small when they have little or nothing) and lead the turn, or just re-raise the flop. It can be done with nothing, and you never know you might hit a hand with your rags and take all his chips

.

impr0v · 06-01-2006 1:03pm

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

he sensed weakness, u are weak, u cant call, well played him, doesnt matter what he had

Indeed. I had no choice but to fold. He didn't show but i'm pretty sure he hadn't hit the flop at all and outplayed me or capitalised on bad play by me (if those aren't the same things). In hindsight I should probably have raised pre-flop by more, as per waylander's advice. It turned out to be the pivotal hand of my tournament, went out off the BB a few hands later having raised the sb all-in with pocket 9's and his KJo made a pair.

Culchie · 06-01-2006 1:12pm

Ste05 wrote:

I really don't like this thinking. A min-raise is never good really. Especially against a BB who has you out chipped.

You need to pitch your bets on all streets so that your opponent is risking more than you are. In this case it's a fairly routine play by the BB and he could have any 2 cards. I would never let someone steal my BB for the minimum unless I am in trouble. Here he's getting odds both pot and implied to call with any 2. This flop bet, looks weak and unless it works i.e. representing a big hand. You simply have to fold to a re-raise or a flop call and then leading the turn.

This min raising is a move that has become so over-used lately, and it's pretty much a guaranteed way of picking up chips for me these days when I'm in the BB with rags and a similar size stack tries it on. It's always so obvious. Especially when the blinds are getting expensive. Just call pre-flop, then either call the weak flop bet (they always bet small when they have little or nothing) and lead the turn, or just re-raise the flop. It can be done with nothing, and you never know you might hit a hand with your rags and take all his chips .

Ste05, as usual, I find myself agreeing with you.

I love people who min raise at any table I play, they are are asking for trouble big time, and they normally get it.
In fact I'd say the min raiser nearly always loses the hand in my experience.

Min raises are good for one thing, and one thing only I find.
If I've been dramitically short stacked after a beat, and I'm playing my 'last hoorah/shyte or bust' hand with something like 3/4 BB's left, you put in a little min raise, preferably behind a limper or two, by the time it gets to the blinds and back to previous limpers there could be 5 or 6 in the pot because of the pot odds... so you're getting value anyway.
You have obviously committed to this hand fully, and if the Pokar gods shine on you, you could quadruple/quintuple up in these circumstances.
Rare Occassions, but that's all min raises are good for...rare occassions.

Ste05 · 06-01-2006 1:24pm

Culchie wrote:

You have obviously committed to this hand fully, and if the Pokar gods shine on you, you could quadruple/quintuple up in these circumstances.

And if the Poker Gods really like you that time, someone might have limped with AKs and now make a huge All-In re-raise giving you lovely protection and amazing pot odds for your last 2BB :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

call or fold? (HH)

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