High level of sickness

Girlyone

Hi All

A couple who work in my department are often out sick (a lot of the time together)
It occurs at least every month.
We don't have any personnel department in the company.

Can anyone summarise what rights an employer has to address this issue of sickness?

Thanks

michaelanthony

You should mind your own business to be honest.

Girlyone

Well I have been given the task to resolve the issue as its my department.

seamus

The company are not obliged to pay for sick days, and are entitled to ask for a doctor's cert for any number of days' illness. The usual is three consecutive days.

The company is entitled to terminate employment if it is unhappy with the level of sick days being taken.

What's your company's current policy on sick days?

Girlyone

Thanks Seamus
Do you know am I entitled to ask what illness is causing them to be absent?
I don't want to terminate the employment as they are skilled but its damaging the morale of the team.

Pinx

It's a sensitive issue alright. What kind of reasons do they give when they're out? You might find something useful on this site: http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/holidays_and_leave/sick_leave.html but the info is more geared towards the employee rather than the employer. Do you have an appraisal system in your department? They can be annoying, but are also a good opportunity to discuss things like attendance, etc. Might even give you a chance to boost the morale of the others.

nesf

Does your company have a policy on sick leave/sick days? There is no legislation on this afaik. You can dismiss someone for being absent too often but you will need to have a written record of days missed and times absent to back this up iirc. You can ask for doctor's certs but usually companies wait until a certain number of days have been missed before doing so.


Tbh, my first step would be to take the couple aside and have a brief talk with them to find out what's up.

seamus

Girlyone wrote:

Do you know am I entitled to ask what illness is causing them to be absent?

Yes you are, or you can insist on a doctor's cert for the days. If they tell you it's "personal reasons", then you can give them a warning.

TBH, I would check two things:

What do their contracts say about sick leave? You cannot insist on anything more than is specified in the contract.

If it's not specified in their contracts, then you're bound by the law, which is undefined for sick leave

If it was me, and the latter was the case, I'd have a meeting with both of them (appropriate since they're married, and it affects both of them), and your boss. Outline the problem as you see it, and tell them that you're going to have to insist on a doctor's cert to cover the sick days they take. You'll soon see them stop taking the days, as it costs €50+ to get the cert. If they're sick for a number of days, they can get one cert to cover all the days, so it's fair for actual sickness.

Listen to them of course. If they have a plausible reason for taking the days (chronically ill child, ill relatives, etc) then work out a compromise with them.

Girlyone

nesf - we do have a sick leave policy but it only really deals with long term sick.
they only ever go out for a day or two so a dr. note it not even required.
the reasons for illness are usually stomach bug, migrane etc
I have met with them before but it hasn't done much good, I think diciplinary action is required but I just wasn't sure that I could issue them a warning for it.

blahblah06

wow girly good luck. id say its very hard sacking a married couple..

whippet

there is a very simple method to curb this. Alot of companies have introduced 'return from sickleave interviews'

Even if they are only out for a day, you have a semi-informal chat about their illness, what the doctor said, what medication they were taking, what effects the illness may have in the future. All this is to be done to help the employee.

If a person is genuinly ill they will appriciate the seemingly helpful and concerned employer, if they were just chancing their arm they will get uncomfortable around quesdtions about their doctor's visit and medication.

It is a very simple and effective method of reducing 'duvet days'

onedmc

Looks like you need to bring in a short term sick leave policy.

- Eg Doctors cert required if off for 3 days in a row, or a total of 7 days in any 1 year.

But as always record everything, every meeting, comment or sly remark.

Girlyone

Thank for all the suggestions
the return to work interviews sound like a good idea (although at the rate of sickness I'd be doing them a lot!)

Stark

From what it sounds like, you're perfectly entitled to issue them a warning. They are blatantly abusing the system. They have vacation days if they need to take a day off to do stuff together.

nesf

whippet wrote:

there is a very simple method to curb this. Alot of companies have introduced 'return from sickleave interviews'

Even if they are only out for a day, you have a semi-informal chat about their illness, what the doctor said, what medication they were taking, what effects the illness may have in the future. All this is to be done to help the employee.

If a person is genuinly ill they will appriciate the seemingly helpful and concerned employer, if they were just chancing their arm they will get uncomfortable around quesdtions about their doctor's visit and medication.

It is a very simple and effective method of reducing 'duvet days'

The problem is that some people find that to be highly intrusive. If a person provides you with all the medical documentation required then you don't have a right to go into what medication they were put on etc.

To say that this will seem helpful doesn't work imho. It's the employer intruding on their employee's private life. Yes it will catch those "chancing their arms" but it will also make genuinely sick people uncomfortable because they will have to justify their sick days beyond a medical certificate. Potentially it's something that you might lose a good employee over.

whippet

nesf wrote:

The problem is that some people find that to be highly intrusive. If a person provides you with all the medical documentation required then you don't have a right to go into what medication they were put on etc.

To say that this will seem helpful doesn't work imho. It's the employer intruding on their employee's private life. Yes it will catch those "chancing their arms" but it will also make genuinely sick people uncomfortable because they will have to justify their sick days beyond a medical certificate. Potentially it's something that you might lose a good employee over.

If the person was genuinely sick and has the medical cert you don't have to be intrusive at all, just a quick word to say I hope you are feeling OK, do you need a hand to catch up on work you missed out on. The only people you will be making uncomfortable are those who are taking the p1ss. Believe me I have done this a few times and find it great.

To the OP, you won't have to do this too many times, you will find that after the first or second interview people tend to think twice about pulling sickies.

Girlyone

To the OP, you won't have to do this too many times, you will find that after the first or second interview people tend to think twice about pulling sickies.[/QUOTE]

I hope so
Thanks

WizZard

I would think twice about the return-from-sickleave interviews. I personally would find it very intrusive, and it is something which would niggle at me about the job.

I have a had a similar type of interview before in a company I used to work for and I felt that it seemed very accusational, even though it was specifically stated that it wasn't.
During and after it my thoughts ran along the lines of "F$%$ this, I don't need this hassle".
I felt it was very bad form, and was thinking to myself how they would feel if I introduced an interview for my bosses, held by myself, along the lines of "I've just done a hell of a lot of unpaid overtime, now let's have a little chat about it"...

seamus

I too would consider the after-sickness interviews very carefully. Some people who are genuinely sick may decide to come into work instead of the hassle of detailing their watery bowel movements. At worst you may find yourself in legal trouble if some manager pushes a woman on detailing her feminine issues while she was out sick.

I would say this kind of thing is only carried out by HR depts, and by people who know proper technique/procedure.

LDB

I have a very similar problem with a UK employee
They are not married but are going out
We have return to work interviews and self certification forms (for when they are only out a day or two) but it doesn't help reduce the sick levels
the next step will be to send them for a company medical, this is allowed under our sick policy
If they continue to be out I'll be having a diciplinary meeting with each of them separately and possibly issuing a verbal warning that would last 3 months and if the sickness continues a written warning will be issued etc...
The only thing to be be very careful of I suppose is that their illness is not related to some disability
you might be able to follow the same process as this

~L

rubadub

Girlyone wrote:

nesf - we do have a sick leave policy but it only really deals with long term sick.

so what is the policy exactly, you say it deals with only long term, by the sounds of it they should have to take the days as holidays, not even unpaid days (which many would still take). A guy in my place was taking the piss, the most diseased human on the planet, sick at least once a fortnight, so they gave him a clock card (some workers already had them so it was no big deal to introduce). I havent seen a recovery like his since Lazarus

There should be at least a limit to sick days per year and demands of notes. There is a demand of notes in my place, but they only ask if they think people are pulling a sickie

Stark

LDB wrote:

The only thing to be be very careful of I suppose is that their illness is not related to some disability

Maybe they share a liver.

Girlyone

rubadub wrote:

so what is the policy exactly, you say it deals with only long term, by the sounds of it they should have to take the days as holidays, not even unpaid days (which many would still take). A guy in my place was taking the piss, the most diseased human on the planet, sick at least once a fortnight, so they gave him a clock card (some workers already had them so it was no big deal to introduce). I havent seen a recovery like his since Lazarus

There should be at least a limit to sick days per year and demands of notes. There is a demand of notes in my place, but they only ask if they think people are pulling a sickie

The policy is that they have to bring in a Dr. note after 3 days of illness, however it rarely goes past two.
There is no specification at all on the limit to how many days can be taken or how many sick days will be paid for. I guess the reason for this is that if you specifed that you would be paid for a total of say 10 days sick, maybe people would take those 10. I dunno.

rubadub

Girlyone wrote:

The policy is that they have to bring in a Dr. note after 3 days of illness, however it rarely goes past two.
There is no specification at all on the limit to how many days can be taken or how many sick days will be paid for. I guess the reason for this is that if you specifed that you would be paid for a total of say 10 days sick, maybe people would take those 10. I dunno.

well by not specifiying it those 2 are taking a lot more. 10 is a lot too, you should go for a low number like 3, 5 at the very most. Then if people are genuinely sick and have notes you can take them aside and allow them more.

It is not just costing you their free holidays, their abscence must also upset the running of the team, i.e. if 10 people get 50 tasks done in a day but only 5 turn up they usually will get far less than 25 tasks done. It will also cause internal conflict or underlying upset that they get away with it.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

loyatemu

policy in my old company was doctors note if you were out for 3 days or more.

If it was 2 days or less you could "self-certify" but you were only allowed do this for 7 days in a year - after this you needed a doctors note for every additional sick day or you would a. not get paid or b. face disciplinary action.

problem with this is that some employees viewed it as 7 additional days leave. One guy who was always pulling sickies (generally because he was hungover\still drunk) claimed emotional stress so they paid for him to go to a counsellor - during work hours! Off he'd go every couple of weeks to sit on a couch and talk bollocks; by the time we'd finished work he'd already be in the pub!

Many companies are terrified of getting sued and are reluctant to sack anyone.

heggie

some places enforce the doctors cert on anything over 2 days, or if your sick on a friday, regardless if its the first day out. Regarding the back from sickleave interviews i'd find that a bit intrusive if i was genuinely ill, but nothing wrong with a casual 'concerned' chat with them which many places do, kinda like a scaled down interview lol

TempestSabre

I was under the impression you can't ask them why. Simply enforce the sick leave rules in their contract. If you don't have any, then put some in place giving all employees a few weeks notice of when they will come into effect. Kinda the same thing as disciplinary procedures etc. Someone might end up with a long term illness and from a practical point of view a company needs a way to get out from the contract.

In my opinion interviews or getting involved with the details of the sickness is a mistake. It seems to make the decision subjective and really you want to keep a professional distance. Put rules in place, and enforce them.

Usually rules are along the lines of more than 2 day sick requires a doctors cert. No more than 6 days uncertified allowed in the year. No more than 10 certified days. Cert always required for a Mon or Fri. Then theres usually something about written warnings if in breach, and if these conditions are exceeded then dismissal will be immediate. However theres always somesort of a get out clause of managers discretion where comprehensive evidence of serious illness may result in an alternative agreement, but the company is not obliged to offer an alternative.

I'm sure you could dig out some company HR contracts and mix and match them.

As an aside theres pretty poor relations if people don't volunteer why they are sick, or that you can't have an informal chat about it. If its a rare occurance then it doesn't matter. But if its very frequent, then its just rude.

captainfuture

Well sickies always are very difficult to deal with. I saw the policy stuff has already been discussed quite lively, so I'd like to give you some different input on this topic. In my opinion the best way of dealing with high levels of sickness is to avoid them in advance as far as possible;
Therefore as a few examples you should consider:
- Appealling to the team's work attitude by showing the impact on fellow team members workload caused by unnecessary absence, i.e. team spirit
- Setting strict rules on how people should call in sick; Don't tolerate simple text messages or just calling a collegue. The one who is really sick should always call his/her team leader or manager directely on time providing a valid reason for not showing up
- Making an example of very bad cases by taking disciplinary actions when required (have a chat with HR, they can help you with that)
- If you spot out any regular patterns of sickness (every first Monday of the month, always Fridays etc.) immediately point them out to the according person. Be careful though, it shouldn't be understood as an assumption just as a notice.
However, in regards to policies I think it's worth doublechecking with HR what exactely the companies approach is and as a final straw taking unpaid sickness leave into account.

JimmySmith

You can insist on a doctors cert for even one days sick leave.

You have no right to know what was wrong with them or what the doctor said.

They can just get the doctor to write 'so and so was sick' and thats enough.

If it costs them €40 each though they wont go to the doc unless they are really sick so they might think twice about pulling sickies

Our man in Havana

In my place its 2 days without a cert, first 2 days unpaid and 80% thereafter up to a max of 20 days sick per year. Fair policy I thinks.

Khannie

Do they have any children? They may be pulling a sicky because they don't want to talk about something more upsetting going on in their life (like a very ill child / dying parent / etc.). I'm a firm "benefit of the doubt" head.

I would take them both aside in an arranged interview, tell them how they're way above the average for numbers of sick days, then ask them if there's anything that the company can help with. Say that you'll send them to the company doctor if they exceed a certain number of days per year to determine whether it's the company's fault *cough* *cough*.