I know you have me beaten, but....

stephenoleary

As a realtive novice at the live cash game tables, I am constantly learning, but one comment/situation I have seen on a number of occassions recently is "I know you have me beaten, but I'm calling anyway....."

I have seen so many players, of various abilities, coming out with this line. On some occassions, they are pot committed, but on others, it seems to be a crazy decision. Especially strange is when this move comes on the river, with no posability of improving their hand.

There have been a few rare occassions when the raiser has been bluffing, but these far outway the number of times when, just as predicted, the caller was indeed beaten.

Why does a good player do this?

I was determined that if I ever found myself in a similar situation, I would fold my hand, but last night......

Live cash game, 1/2, I've about 60 euro left, dealt 3s6d in the sb, no raise I limp for a euro.

Flop comes 3d 5s 6s

I push for the pot, folded around to a player I repsect who reraises me all-in. Folded back to me, and out comes the line, "I know you've got me beaten, but....."

Needless to say, he turns over 74 for the nut straight, and despite another spade on the turn giving me a flush draw, my two pair fails to improve on the river.

Is this a simple case of a bad beat? Or, knowing that my opponent was ahead, should I have folded to his reraise?

Hectorjelly

wtf

De Deraco

people who say that are usually fools who make up crazy reasons to call any bet. If i had been you in the above situation i would of thought i may still be ahead. of maybe A 6 or A 4 even a flush draw. the standard tends to be that bad and worse

Hectorjelly

- there have been some odd posts recently. I make a practice of only calling large bets if I am 100% sure im behind.

stephenoleary

Never seen this situation Hector?

Hectorjelly

If someone says I know you have me beat and then calls anyway (unless they are pot committed on an early street) then they are a bad player who cant fold when they should. Make a mental note to never bluff or engage them in conversation. The only reason a good player would do this is if they were on tilt.

A bad beat is when you lose a hand in which you were a substantial favourite to win when most of the money went in.

jacQues

Hectorjelly wrote:

If someone says I know you have me beat and then calls anyway (unless they are pot committed on an early street) then they are a bad player who cant fold when they should. Make a mental note to never bluff or engage them in conversation. The only reason a good player would do this is if they were on tilt.

Not always. If in a tournament I'm chip leader and a low stack goes all-in on the flop I may do exactly that, knowing that I'm behind.

jacQues

DeVore

"I know I'm behind" is a really interesting phrase, worthy of examination beyond simple ridicule.

There are a couple of reasons why people say this in my opinion.

1. "I want to call but if I'm wrong in my read I'll look like a total mug. I'd rather look like I'm on tilt then a mug."

I've probably been guilty of doing this the odd time. I can't recall ever saying the phrase but that only because I dislike cliches. This person isnt a bad player necessaraily, but he's sensitive to ridicule and shame. I know several players who simple implode and then explode when they are publically questioned (or feel humiliated). This for them is a way of mitigating the outcome. If they lose they can saw "I told you I knew you had it but I had to call blah blah etc".

Personally I do this when Iwant to call with A-high or some other "clever" call because of a read etc. The player doesn't want to ruin their table image so they preempt their "bad call" with this, to soften the blow. It turns from being a defeat into a confirmation of their suspicions (hence they were actually RIGHT )

This is why so often this phrase is heard before what is ACTUALLY a damned good call. We'd like to steam over it (I do anyway!) but the truth is that sometimes there is a nagging doubt left in their minds which blossoms into "I might yet win this...." which leads them to talk themselves into calling. This person is not as dumb as you think.

2. "I think you're ahead but you could have been drawing to that flush that missed and now you are trying to represent trips etc".

I'm definitely guilty of this (I would say that because in many ways its good play, depending on the pots size). I might have an A-high flush draw or TPTK on the flop but get no improvement while calling (or raising!) each street correctly. On the river I might now have third-pair-top-kicker or a busted flush draw when my opponent bets. If the pot is 20k, my stack is 20k and the bet is 2k then yeah, I might pull an "I think you're ahead but I'm still calling" routine. For the same reasons we call with 7 high up-n-down straight draws when we are CLEARLY behind at that point. Its because long term its a winning move. In the 2k example above, you only need to find 1 in 10 guys bluffing on the river to make it work.... you think that might be the case?
This scenario is considerably less common then the others though.

3. Joe Gibblin once said that exact phrase to me over a cash table one night. (Joe, if you don't know him, is no muppet on a cash table, not by a long shot). He simply wanted to see my cards and see how I had played them, he paid the cash and mucked his cards before I had barely flicked them over. This should be simple enough to determine from those people who simply can't let a hand go.

4. He's a muppet.

DeV.

De Deraco

what about the luckbox with the pocket 4s last night Dev

DeVore

At least he didnt say that, I don't think I could have stopped myself from reaching over to him and slapping him, hard. He said "These are lucky for me!". I was happy to see him there too (all preflop) so I can't complain.
For those who werent there, reraised all in with 99 to his 44, a huge raise which he called after a while (and after another player undercalling.. with A5!). The lady beside me said to me "I dropped one of his fours" but the other popped on the flop. Amazingly that wasnt his biggest outdraw of the night! De Deraco, which player were you on the final table?? (I'm presuming you were there...). And how did he fair in the end?

DeV.

De Deraco

i was seat 7 at the final table (shane). sat back with 20k as he knocked every one out. easiest 2nd place i have ever had, there was no chance of beating him. He got even luckier after you left. finshed up before 2.

DeVore

I was planning on doing that but I knew damned well I had him beat and beat soundly. I was hoping he'd call because if he had doubled me up there I'd have been on 75k and about even with him. He should have been gone when he hit the runner runner inside straight draw (I don't even know the odds for that btw!)

Anyway, we should get back on topic

DeV.

califano

DeVore wrote:

"These are lucky for me!".

DeV.

K4 is lucky for you!

DeVore

rounders123 wrote:

K4 is lucky for you!

I think you'll find it was Q3 and not THAT bad a call

DeV.

Hectorjelly

jacQues wrote:

Not always. If in a tournament I'm chip leader and a low stack goes all-in on the flop I may do exactly that, knowing that I'm behind.

jacQues

reread what I wrote

califano

DeVore wrote:

I think you'll find it was Q3 and not THAT bad a call

DeV.

Im pretty sure you had K4 in BB and re-raised my A-10 button raise. Flop came with a lovely king in the middle for you. Arrrrgh!!

So i take it there was some lucky sucker dispatching people left right and centre afterwards!. Its probably just as well i got ko'd when i did:) .

hotspur

Players call when they know they're behind ALL THE TIME, there's loads of legitimate reasons for doing it as Devore said, but the really interesting thing is that it happens all the time for psychological reasons that have nothing to do with winning at poker. I mean do you *really* think that all those donkeys out there who are calling your huge re-raise with their middle pair are actually so intellectually deficient that they think they're ahead? Lots of players play poker psychologically not intellectually, the difference being that the former do what they do because of who they are and the latter try to do what they do according to probablility, reads on betting patterns etc.

An example is a guy I used to play with live, he was someone who had this "thing" about not being pushed around, so obviously he was the purest calling station that you would ever see at the poker table. When you wanted a big call from him you could just "bully" your bet up a bit and hey presto. But he wasn't a stupid guy, there's no way if he analysed things purely intellectually that he would call the bets he did, but he didn't, he played according to who he was. This is how a huge % of casual players play the game. Other examples are the degenerate gambler who is *actually* playing in order to lose. Others just can't stand the idea of being outwitted or outplayed by bluffers so they make sure it doesn't happen by calling when they're not strong. Others are just angry at the world and constantly make bad calls like we all do when we are tilting or when it's a bet from a player we've been having a blazing row with, it's a "screw you, I'm probably beaten but I'll take those bad odds just for the slight chance of sticking it to you you bastard".

I don't think you can go 10 minutes without seeing someone making a call at some point when they know they're behind for reasons other than tactical poker reasons.