playing stupid f@*&ing pocket aces

gosplan

Just got really stuck playing pocket aces from early position.

Limped as BB+1, one guy raised by 3 * BB, everyone else folds so I flat call.

Flop comes down Q Q 10 and I bet out. $139 later I find out he has KQ.

I guess this is turning into a bad beat thread but my question is....

How prepared are you to annouce the strength of aces thereby winning nothing??

If I stick in a big reraise here he'll fold the KQ and as he's the only player left I don't really want to take the pot down yet....or do I???

CoD

If you limp in UTG with aces and someone makes a x3 raise, thats what you wanted. Raise back at least x2 , or pot it.

If the flops QQT, you gotta ask yourself what he raised with. AQ, KQ, are both very likely.

What did you do, bet then call him down, check call him down

Shudda bet 1/2 - 3/4 pot and fold to any reply/call

I think you played it wrong on every street

Ste05

Get ready for 20 "don't limp with Aces", and then another 20 "never slow play Aces pre-flop". TBH this will happen everytime you play AA like this... or at least I hope it will.....

Take this as Post No. 1, do I hear No. 2

Shortstack

Nothin wrong with limping with Aces as long as you re-raise when raised. It is a lot better than raising with them as you will get callers with any pair/suited connectors etc and no flop is then safe. If you get the chance to re-raise with them you either win there and then or you get a better definition of what your opponent may have, still not too many safe flops that dont contain an ace though

Amaru

Hows about this? Aces are not a guarantee, and its okay to fold them when they don't improve on a dangerous board.

slegs

Amaru wrote:

Hows about this? Aces are not a guarantee, and its okay to fold them when they don't improve on a dangerous board.

exactly why do people think they have to play aces to the death..with QQ on the board with a serious caller Q or K is his most likely card seeing as you have two aces...make a decent bet and fold when it comes back at ya

Amaru

I just can't wait until the words "weak tight" are mentioned by somebody who thinks its synonymous with folding!

Hectorjelly

slegs wrote:

make a decent bet and fold when it comes back at ya

This is about the opposite of the way I would recommend. Leading there tells your opponent that you dont have a queen, bloats the pot and gives you almost no information because a pocket pair or a queen will both flat call you. There are no draws so check calling is optium.

5starpool

Amaru wrote:

I just can't wait until the words "weak tight" are mentioned by somebody who thinks its synonymous with folding!

that was a weak tight statement. no real conviction.

Marq

some specifics as to how you proceeded to lose the 139 dollars? what limit was this?

and the post didn't turn into a bad beat thread - it started as a bad beat thread and then less-than-cleverly attempted to masquerade as a strategy question, while providing little relevant strategic information about the hand in question.

Genius.

gosplan

I didn't provide too many details as I know my post flop play sucked.

Sometimes when I flop aces my thinking veers towards..."well he may have me beaten here...but he may not.....and given the chance I would have gone all in with him preflop so???"

There's no need to tell me how dumb this is.

Anyway it was a strategy question but wasn't to do with much apart from how to play aces preflop.

The way i see it, a limp reraise is about the strongest looking move there is in poker. Whenever I see it i assume aces or kings. Do you always want to do this against 1 opponent where you're odds on to take the pot?

would you not rather sometimes see the flop and hope it's K low low and then go for it??

gosplan

sorry, obviously part of the above strategy involves minimising losses when you're beaten.

Amaru

gosplan wrote:

The way i see it, a limp reraise is about the strongest looking move there is in poker. Whenever I see it i assume aces or kings. Do you always want to do this against 1 opponent where you're odds on to take the pot?

Whenever i see it, and i see it ALOT, its usually some tool with a small pocket pair who didn't want to raise preflop, but now that there's a raise, he somehow thinks its a good idea to get it all in the middle.

cardshark202

There's nothing wrong with flat calling his raise here. But when playing aces this way you have to be prepared to fold them. Moreso than if you had re-popped it preflop because you have theoretically narrowed down the number of hands (your opponent could have) that can beat you on this flop.

Ste05

I must say I love how this thread is developing. I suppose I'll throw my hat in here too and say limping with Aces is just a grand and dandy strategy, :cool: the more people limping with AA the better IMHO. (but I better also throw in that great little caveat that's becoming more and more fashionable) once you know when to fold them.

Although before I commit to this fourth level thinking :rolleyes: , I'll just mention a couple of the most basic concepts about where profit comes from in Poker:

1) From playing your holdings with optimum expectation, and to ensure you extract maximum value when you hit your cards; and
2) From allowing your opponents to make mistakes.

Now looking at these two very basic concepts, I'll just look quickly at limping with AA.

1) When do you intend raising so as to extract the maximum value from your hands. Is it Pre-Flop .... when you telegraph your holding. Especially assuming you have raised with AKs, KK, QQ, the odd 79s (to mix up your game). Or should we limp with all these hands?? But now you now limp, re-raise
What sort of hand range will even a mediocre player have you on.

Or do you raise after the flop when you've been outdrawn .

2) Exactly when do you allow someone to make a mistake in this hand?

Now before everyone jumps down my throat saying "you need to know when to fold them", or "you can't fall in love with your big hands". I'll just say if you were to limp with AA, there better be a damn good reason for doing it. e.g. Is there a maniac re-raising every early position limper? etc. etc. There are certainly situations where a limp certainly would be OK, but these are few and far between and once it's done you need to realise how risky a play it is.

OK, got that off my chest, I feel better now. But as a general strategy for the level at which the majority of us play at it stinks. I just hate this whole strategy that seems to be developing about trying to make these great Hellmuthesque folds. By all means at the 3-6 level etc. these sneaky plays are needed, but not lower than that.

I didn't bother going into when I might also limp with this hand, but basically it would only be after being at the table for a while having developed an image that would allow this play to be +EV and also to have a solid read on the potential victim. And those sort of situations can't be described here.

Amaru

It's very simple. A pair of aces is just that, a pair. On any given board, you will at least flop top pair. Have you ever seen top pair get cracked before? If you're the type of person who has trouble folding top pair no matter whats on the board, you are more than likely going to lose a lot of money with aces in the long run. If you can learn that top pair 9 handed isn't the holy grail, you'll be doing better than most people at the low limits.

The Bollox

a friend of mine never won a hand with pocket aces... true story

Ste05

Amaru wrote:

It's very simple. A pair of aces is just that, a pair. On any given board, you will at least flop top pair. Have you ever seen top pair get cracked before? If you're the type of person who has trouble folding top pai no matter whats on the boardr, you are more than likely going to lose a lot of money with aces in the long run. If you can learn that top pair 9 handed isn't the holy grail, you'll be doing better than most people at the low limits.

I'm not going to get into this again, but just to be clear, if the flop is K58 rainbow, AA is not top pair. any K is top pair. AA is an over-pair.

To put it simply and bluntly. Limping with AA is NOT maximising your expectation in the hand. UNLESS there are huge external factors that cannot be properly articulated here. But basically it would involve targeting players based on a solid understanding of their previous play, and even then you're depending on a factor that you have no control over. i.e. an independant third party.

I think we've been over this ground one time too many. Basically our styles are different, I try to maximise potential winnings with my big hands, i.e. TAG, and not to limit potential losses. I'm not sure what style you use, possibly LPA???

Amaru

I'm not sure if you think i was contradicting your advice, but i wasn't. I was just giving additional advice to the OP. What you wrote is very solid advice.

Also, whats LPA?!

CoD

gosplan wrote:

Sometimes when I flop aces my thinking veers towards..."well he may have me beaten here...but he may not.....and given the chance I would have gone all in with him preflop so???"

You had this chance to get your chips in preflop and you didnt take it!

LPA.. I'm guessing Loose Passive (preflop) & Agressive (postflop)

Ste05

CoD wrote:

LPA.. I'm guessing Loose Passive (preflop) & Agressive (postflop)

Yep.....

Amaru wrote:

I'm not sure if you think i was contradicting your advice, but i wasn't. I was just giving additional advice to the OP. What you wrote is very solid advice.

Ah , I see now, didn't catch that. And of course I whole heartedly agree with your sentiments also, the ability to fold a losing hand is a very important part of Poker.

Back to the AA though for a minute, obviously in bigger games or games where you will be playing with the same people time and again, limping in early position may be appropriate to make yourself harder to read, but this would be very seldom, maybe 10-15% of the times you are dealt AA or KK in early position, but again this would need to done purposely for this reason.

However on-line at the lower levels you just won't come up against the same players often enough to need this deceptive value...

mewso

Marts wrote:

a friend of mine never won a hand with pocket aces... true story

Retired has he? What are we talking? Few games in the pub and he has begun writing his AA memoirs?

Marq

Marts wrote:

a friend of mine never won a hand with pocket aces... true story

That's funny. I've had them 7835 times and I've never lost with them.

roryc

I lost on them seven times in a row a while ago. There was no real money involved except for the sixth one (Big Dragon - fitz €270), so I could only laugh. I almost prefer to look down and see Kings because it just ain't fair gettin aces cracked! However, I did hear that 'aces are rigged' by a reputable source at a pub tourney, who looked like he knew what he was talking about. Maybe i should stop playing them if they are in fact rigged.

Lafortezza

Marq wrote:

That's funny. I've had them 7835 times and I've never lost with them.

12,755 times for me and counting, variance is good sometimes.

Iago

Aces ALWAYS lose.

In fact in the 1,636 times I've had them I've only won with them 85% of the time, wtf is that about

Washout

Iago wrote:

Aces ALWAYS lose.

In fact in the 1,636 times I've had them I've only won with them 85% of the time, wtf is that about

and there you have it folks....statistics dont lie!


ppl only seem to remember the bad beats as well.
ive gotten them 328 times online and they have held up 81% but to be honest i can only remmeber 1 or 2 of the ones that held up but i can remember a hell of alot more where they were cracked including a five in a row.

just say out loud "Variance, Variance, Variance" and get on with playing the game

roryc

RIGGED! Jimmy said so! They're fcukin RIGGED!

califano

People dont remember the amount of times for example they go in ahead with AA versus JJ and hit an ace to improve further because it doesnt make any difference. Its only remembered when yer man catches a jack though.

ianmc38

Getting back on topic, i don't think limping with Aces 6 handed or 9 handed is ever a good play unless as someone said there is a maniac to act who has been raising every single hand. For 1, you want to maximise the pot preflop. Secondly you don't want everyone at the table to limp in as your aces are far less likely to be ahead postflop. Someone may limp with TJo or 56s. Letting these people see a cheap flop can often result in outdraws and the ensuing complaints about Aces not holding up...

Also, if you're making standard raises with for example AJ+, 88+, Suited connectors etc, then you won't be revealing much about the strength of your hand by putting in your standard preflop raise....

Daithio

Shortstack wrote:

Nothin wrong with limping with Aces as long as you re-raise when raised. It is a lot better than raising with them as you will get callers with any pair/suited connectors etc and no flop is then safe. If you get the chance to re-raise with them you either win there and then or you get a better definition of what your opponent may have, still not too many safe flops that dont contain an ace though

You only need to re raise when there are more players in the pot. You are guaranteed to be heads up in this situation so flat calling is best. You min re raise and he has you on AA KK immediately. He has to call for value, flops a monster like QQ and gets all your chips by betting in to you without you believing him for the Q because he bet out. I think flat calling pre flop here is the best option. You do that and only one Q or K comes on the flop and you've got all his chips.
Leading out when the two queens did hit was a huge mistake. Check call and re evaluate on the turn and river whether or not he has a queen with the extra information.

Shortstack

Daithio wrote:

You only need to re raise when there are more players in the pot. You are guaranteed to be heads up in this situation so flat calling is best. You min re raise and he has you on AA KK immediately. He has to call for value, flops a monster like QQ and gets all your chips by betting in to you without you believing him for the Q because he bet out. I think flat calling pre flop here is the best option. You do that and only one Q or K comes on the flop and you've got all his chips.
Leading out when the two queens did hit was a huge mistake. Check call and re evaluate on the turn and river whether or not he has a queen with the extra information.

I agree with not leading out when the queens hit the flop but I would still re-raise pre-flop, and a hefty re-raise too. I want all the chips in the middle with a big pair when I know I am ahead. I also don't want to be out of position after the flop. Aces are a bastard of a hand post flop especially out of position.

Why do I want to win pre flop? The hands I do not want seeing a flop are other pairs and suited connectors, these stealth type hands are the ones that will most commonly bust you. These kinds of hands are not going to give you any more money unless they hit the flop and if they hit the flop you are giving them money. Obviously exeptions can be made for aggressive maniacs.

hotspur

I agree with Daithio about not re-raising preflop, this was a cash game after all, Shortstack's preflop advice would better suit tourny play I think, I mean in this scenario the villain is chucking his KQ to a hefty re-raise preflop, I'm happy to take it to a flop and hope he hits top pair.
As for the postflop advice I don't agree that leading out when the two Q's hit was necessarily bad because the pot wasn't that big so I assume you didn't bet *that* much, but you have to accept when that flop hits that you are not gonna take down a big pot anymore, you can only lose a big pot unless you're lucky enough that the other guy is a total donkey or you suck an ace, how you managed to lose a big pot after he called the flop bet is baffling

Atlas_IRL

i would have re-reraised his 3*BB raise..

U were representing the best starting hand so y not get em to pay for it...

Hectorjelly

Atlas_IRL wrote:

U were representing the best starting hand so y not get em to pay for it...

wtf

MadsL

Having read this through, I got so umming and ahhing about pocket aces, that I actually managed to fold them pre-flop having timed out playing the BoyleSports $1000 freeroll last night. :mad:

(Thinly disguisted boast) Possibly as a result of folding this hand I went on to win it, cheers for the $300 BoyleSports! (ul Roundtower)

ianmc38

MadsL wrote:

Having read this through, I got so umming and ahhing about pocket aces, that I actually managed to fold them pre-flop having timed out playing the BoyleSports $1000 freeroll last night. :mad:

(Thinly disguisted boast) Possibly as a result of folding this hand I went on to win it, cheers for the $300 BoyleSports! (ul Roundtower)

Probably a good fold that one. I tend to fold the rockets about 80% of the time preflop.