STTs ITM to make a profit

ZZR1100

What percentage ITM would you need to make a profit at STTS (10 player).I have calculated it as being 36.5% to break even taking your average finish ITM as 2nd place including rake.Is this correct and is any1 here getting 45 to 50% or is this figure unrealistic in the long term.

Amaru

Its very possible to be in the 40-50% ITM, in fact, you should definitely be in this range if you're a winning player. Here's a good thread on 2+2 on the subject

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=&Number=2302700&page=0&view=&sb=5&o=14&fpart=

Also, what do most of you consider to be a large sample space when it comes to STT's? 500? 1000? 10000?

Iago

I think that 40-50% over the long term is very ambitious. Over 1,600 SNGs at various levels I'm running at 40.12%, but I've had a disasterous last 400 SNGs.

I would guess that by the time I get to 16K SNGs my ITM will have dropped to somewhere in the mid-late 30% range (hopefully no lower than that), nothing to prove this other than anecdotal evidence from players who have played this amount of games.

In terms of relevant sample size I think you need at least 5K SNGs for it to become relevant, maybe even 10K although you should have a good idea of how you're running before that.

The Key figure rather than ITM is ROI, you should be looking to be in the 18-25% range here I would imagine. At the moment (following the aforementioned disasterous 400 SNGs) my ROI is only at 14% barely enough to keep your head above water and make it worth your while.

That's a good thread Amaru has linked, you should read through it.

Amaru

How many tables do you play at once Iago, and where and what is your bread and butter when it comes to STT's?

Iago

I've a crappy old laptop at home so I only 3-4 table at most, sometimes I'll drop it down to two tables if it's getting close to the money in one table and it's close, but more often than not I'll play 3-4.

This year I made a steady (if sometimes slow) progression from the $3 and $5 to the $25-$50 level which is where I play at now, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future I think.

Mostly play at one of the Tribeca skins or Full Tilt, I prefer Full Tilt but I'm clearing bonuses at Tribeca at the moment so I'll finish that out first.

NeVeR

How many SnG would you guys play in a day,? I try to play about 20 a day at 5 or 10 dollars..

Amaru

Iago wrote:

I've a crappy old laptop at home so I only 3-4 table at most, sometimes I'll drop it down to two tables if it's getting close to the money in one table and it's close, but more often than not I'll play 3-4.

This year I made a steady (if sometimes slow) progression from the $3 and $5 to the $25-$50 level which is where I play at now, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future I think.

Mostly play at one of the Tribeca skins or Full Tilt, I prefer Full Tilt but I'm clearing bonuses at Tribeca at the moment so I'll finish that out first.

Whats the competition like over at full tilt, comparable to tribeca? And how good is the tournament structure?

How many SnG would you guys play in a day,? I try to play about 20 a day at 5 or 10 dollars..

I take it your multitabling, otherwise you must bust out very quickly:D I play about 8 a day on days off, 4 on a work day. I only single table at the moment though, but that'll be changing soon with the purchase of a new LCD.

willis

IAGO are u clearing the doyles room bonus at the moment?if not what other tribeca bonuses are you clearing. BTW would you not consider playing 6max stts due to better blind structures when it comes down to the money, and the fact you have to beat 4 not 6 players to make money?you can also play more in less time than 9 seaters

Iago

Willis,

Yes it's the Doyle Room bonus. On the 6 max side, for some reason I just don't get comfortable with them, I don't know why exactly...might be the fact that generally by the time it's down to 6 on the 9 player tables someone has generously donated their stack to me

Seriously though, I'm just more comfortable with the 9 seaters at the moment, the 6 max is another area I need to work on over this year.

NeVeR

Yes i play about 3 or 4 at once, i spend about 4 or 5 hours in the evenings, I dont seem to making alot yet, making about 15/20 dollars + buy in's at the end of the night.

MGrah

I'd like to throw something out there in terms of STT's.
(I know this is a pitifully small sample but....)
I've been playing exclusively $5 STT's on Party for the past 2 and a half weeks in order to clear a bonus.
The stats are along the lines of 50% ITM, 50% ROI, which I know is very high, and a portion of which is down to variance. (about 60 STT's, so not playing nearly as much as the others here)

Anyway, the question I have relates to the mini-steps games on Party. I accidentally registered myself for one of these games
(in case anyone is not familiar with the structure it's a $5+1 buy in for level 1, 1st gets buy in to level 2, 2-5 get buy in to level 1 again, 6 - 10 drop out. Level 2 1,2 get buy in to level 3, 3 - 5 level 2, 6 - 8/9 level 1 and 10 drop out, this is pretty similar up to level 5 where the payout is 1st $2k, 2nd $1k, 3rd $500, 4th $300, 5th $200 6 - 10 drop out)

I have only gone through this once, but it took 11 STT's to get into the final level, and although I dropped out in 5th (unbelievably cagey final table that I was too passive at) the $200 return for 12 STT's was almost as much as I could have made even having won 12 in a row at $5. (The 60 STT's over xmas had netter me about $175.)

I am very tempted to concentrate on these mini-steps games now, but does anyone have any opions on EV? Is getting through these steps in 12 games unusally quick, or is the risk of finishing out of the money at the final table too high? i.e. no return at all. The Risk/Reward is certainly up there considering only 1 ITM in 33 buy ins is required to turn a profit.

Daithio

I was playing the steps for a while when they were doing them for a world series ticket. They really suited my style of play in stt's as I often find myself in the money but I'm not excellent at finishing it off, so I often finish second or third. It really depends on your style of play; have a look at all your results from previous stts and if there's a high proportion of 2nd and 3rds as opposed to more 1sts and say 4th and 5ths then the steps is definitely the way to go.

hotspur

PPP has embiggened me with Amaru's spirit for trying to win consecutive sit n go's very recently, and by God is it tricky winning several on the trot, but it has got me thinking about sit n go's so I wanted to ask you veterans.
Now at the risk (well virtual certainty) of sounding like an a$$hole I have always considered sit n go's to be mainly the preserve of players who don't have the character for cash games (with the exception of 1 v 1's), or don't have the time / patience / bankroll for cash games. I also always considered it to be a very poor way of trying to make money at poker.

My own experience of them doesn't add to my knowledge much because I have never actually sat and played one while watching the table the whole time, I usually play them for a laugh doing other things on the computer. So I wanted to ask you guys who have focused on sit n go's -
Is it genuinely a viable way of making more than a little above your investment?
Have any of you who played sit n go's and cash games equally at medium / high stakes kept records and compared your winnings from each over time?
Have you found that a lack of good theory available on stt's has been a problem to your developing your stt game?
Is Gigabet God?
Objectively there must be a best place to play sit n go's at each stakes has anyone got experience of loads of sites and has a real preference ? (actually the same is true for all poker, it's hilarious that 300+ sites get customers, we should have a serious discussion about this sometime and try to reach a consensus for which sites to play on for the various reasons)

Any answers are very appreciated as I'm thinking about moving into playing sit n go's online if it is worth it due to a reluctance to play for 8-12 hours at a time anymore (and I'm a world class tilter too )
Thanks.

Amaru

1)The main reason i started off playing sng's was because of bankroll requirements. I found i lost large sums of money without getting very much play for it. Tournaments solved that problem. It has now turned into a huge earner for me, so i'd say yes, it is a viable strategy to make money. There's a ton of players who play solely sng's. That said, its a very boring way to make money, and burnout is a high factor. There's also a different skill set required for tournament play, but i think its easier to pick up than ring game skills(which is why SNG's are often referred to as "the kindergarten of poker").
2)As stated above, i could never make as much playing ring games as tournaments. The one thing i like about tournaments is the almost guarantee of a result. You know at the end of roughly 45 minutes you're going to have a lot more money, or a little less. Cash games i seem to go long periods of folding and then only win a small pot.
3) This hasn't really been an issue, as 2+2 has been a huge source of information on STT's, seen as theres players there who are veterans of them by several years. There's also some excellent theorists, which i prefer to straightforward "raise here/fold here" type discussion, because i feel it covers me more for unusual eventualities.
4) No, Gigabet is better than God.
5) I prefer tribeca, as they players there are very much below average, and the standard doesn't seem to improve much as you advance in limits. That said, everybody knows the tournaments structure is awful, which puts most people off. When i want real competition i generally play the 22s on party.

MGrah

Amaru wrote:

5) I prefer tribeca, as they players there are very much below average, and the standard doesn't seem to improve much as you advance in limits. That said, everybody knows the tournaments structure is awful, which puts most people off. When i want real competition i generally play the 22s on party.

This will depend alot on the style you prefer, but mine is very much the 'tight aggresive squared'. This works because those playing STT's in general pay no attention to the table and will not have noticed that you haven't played any of the last 15 hands, when suddendly you wake up, they'll pay off your premium hands almost every time. Because of this, I would always go for the sights that increase levels based on the number of hands played, rather than time. I steer clear of PPP for this reason. Party allows 10 hands per level, others like Pacific Poker (888.com) allow 15 per level from $5 up.
Players who prefer to amass large stacks early are probably happier with the quicker blind increases.

Iago

STTs are pretty much guaranteed money on a monthly basis, depending on what level you want to play at and whether you're willing to multi-table you can make a reasonable amount from them.

there is far more money to be made from cash games, but there is much higher variance as well. For me I mostly play STTs because I know I can make money from them, when I play online I'm playing to make money not for entertainment and STTs are guaranteed money every month (well mostly anyway )

Tribeca has some very bad players, but as a result your variance is much higher. I like Full Tilt, the STTs are 6 minute levels rather than 8, that rewards good aggressive play and the players tend to be better, leading to less bad beats and more respect for your raises. They also have a very good first time deposit bonus of 100% up to $600 and 27% rakeback on tourneys and cash games.

Amaru

You can get rakeback on tournaments on FullTilt?! How much are you making from that?

Iago

you can get rakeback on tournaments on a number of sites, have a look around the web there are a number of rakeback providers you can talk to. Failing that there are a few users here who offer rakeback deals as well, check the signatures for info. You can't post a thread about rakeback but you can send people a PM if you're interested. Put it in your sig and your mailbox will fill up quickly enough!

As for how much I'm making, about 27% of my reg fees

It varies every month depending on how much I play, it's normally around $100-$150 a month if I'm playing part-time.

califano

Iago wrote:

there are a few users here who offer rakeback deals as well, check the signatures for info.

Dont delay;)