A tricky situation...

Kobraki

Hi all, first time poster on boards... Just needing a little advice on this scenario that comes up from time to time.

Loose PL holdem cash game, I limp UTG or UTG+1 with big pair, waiting for a raise, so i can reraise. Raise doesn't come, and 6 people see a flop, that has a pair on it. Also, a flop like 337 is as likely to made someone trips as a flop like JJT (its a loose game remember). Whats the best way to play this? Do i lead out, do i check call, check fold?

NickyOD

Kobraki wrote:

(its a loose game remember)

Made even looser by the fact that you are at the table.

I don't think I would be putting any more money in the pot in this hand unless I have reason to be convinced that no one has trips, so I wouldn't be leading into the pot on any street in this hand and try to get to a showdown as cheaply as possible. Most players will not bet their trips on the flop so leading the turn would be unwise. I would check and evaluate all the way. Whether or not you stay in the hand depends on the type of player that decides to take a stab at the pot.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

Made even looser by the fact that you are at the table.

I don't think I would be putting any more money in the pot in this hand unless I have reason to be convinced that no one has trips, so I wouldn't be leading into the pot on any street in this hand and try to get to a showdown as cheaply as possible. Most players will not bet their trips on the flop so leading the turn would be unwise. I would check and evaluate all the way. Whether or not you stay in the hand depends on the type of player that decides to take a stab at the pot.

It's very difficult to check and fold aces here, so I prefer to lead the flop, remember if the flop is 337 there are only two other threes that could be out there. On the other hand you're not worried about giving a free card with AA, so you can think about check calling. If you somehow manage to have JJ here you can bet hoping to be called by a worse two pair, and fold if it looks like your beaten.

If you are a bad player it might be best for you to check fold these hands, because you may lose money, and only play when you have a lock.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote:

It's very difficult to check and fold aces here, so I prefer to lead the flop, remember if the flop is 337 there are only two other threes that could be out there. On the other hand you're not worried about giving a free card with AA, so you can think about check calling. If you somehow manage to have JJ here you can bet hoping to be called by a worse two pair, and fold if it looks like your beaten.

If you are a bad player it might be best for you to check fold these hands, because you may lose money, and only play when you have a lock.

In unraised pot In this kind of game anyone with trips will still only call you, as will A7, 55, 88 so leading here gets you no info whatsoever and creates a bigger pot out of position.

As good player you should be able to read the action after you check to get a better idea if the trips are out there. I'd much prefer to do that than voluntarily put money in the pot in a loose game where I might already be drawing almost dead.

RoundTower

Your opponents will have 55, A7 etc. much more often than they have trips, so by betting here you get more money into the pot when drawing dead, but more importantly you get more in when your opponents are drawing dead.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote:

Your opponents will have 55, A7 etc. much more often than they have trips, so by betting here you get more money into the pot when drawing dead, but more importantly you get more in when your opponents are drawing dead.

They will put the money in the pot themselves with these hands without me leading but are unlikely to bet with trips which is why I favour checking.

A lot of the time in this situation you can bet the flop and get 2 callers behind you, meaning you have to check the turn and possibly give up the pot with the best hand. If you keep the pot small and instead lead the turn its much easier to spot trips.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

They will put the money in the pot themselves with these hands without me leading but are unlikely to bet with trips which is why I favour checking.

OK this is very important. If this is true then checking is correct. I don't think this is always true. Some opponents bet with trips and check with 2 pair here because they are afraid of trups. Some will bet with 2 pair but automatically slowplay trips. To make it more complicated, many of the players who bet trips would check if you had raised preflop, so this situation is not actually the same as if you raise pot in early position and get 6 loose callers when you have AA and hit the same flop. Also, if you raise preflop, and now bet out, some players are now more likely to raise you with trips hoping you have a big pair and will pay them off, but there are probably more players prefer to call you and not scare you off. Remember the players in this game are generally aggressive, otherwise you wouldn't have limped with AA. This makes them more likely to raise you with trips, and to bet with trips, and to bet with two pair, than if the flop is normally 6 players for €2 each.

So it depends on your view of the players and probably the time of night. I would bet here probably 90% of the time in the Fitz. I remember check-folding here about 2 months ago and it seemed very unusual to me, although I was certain I was right.

NickyOD

I guess I have an advantage in this thread as I paly the same cash games as kobraki. These players almost never bet trips or a set. and some will even smooth call in a multi way pot with a vulnerable 2 pair thinking keeping everyone in is a good idea. Also most of the players in this game have huge physical tells when they are first to put money in the pot. I have often called on the flop and checked raised the turn with underpairs because of this.

Like any hand, the types of players at your table are the biggest factor in how you decide to play it.

Cianos

I can probably count on one hand the amount of times I have limped with Aces in a cash game. If the game is as loose as you are saying, there is no reason to limp. You are only going to get decent action off someone who has a better hand than you if you dont raise preflop. Build the pot up preflop, isolate your opponent so you dont have 5 other guys reducing your chances of ending up with the best hand. Hopefully someone with KQ or the like will call, hit a pair and wont be able to let it go.

Remember, pretty much every flop is a scare flop when you hold AA

Continuing the above discussion, I would be with Nicky. As I said, I never limp preflop with Aces, so I'm not used to that situation from the get-go. But the basic fact is, you dont have rights to the pot (in a self-convincing way) just because you hold AA. The initial strategy was to get a bet and a re-raise preflop, but that didnt work. On a raggy paired flop, you dont know where you stand. There is no point in betting out, because you need more information before you proceed. Checking and seeing if there is a bet (and a raise) is a lot more valuable and will allow you have a stronger impression of where you stand. Its still ok to call a bet I think, if the board is something like 337, because someone could be trying to steal or just have the 7, and they will most likely slow down on the turn anyway if they do, so calling a flop bet and re-assessing on the turn is probably the best play IMO

bohsman

Remember, pretty much every flop is a scare flop when you hold AA

You may be playing a game too big for you - either in terms of bankroll or just that your not comfortable with losing the money at stake.

I like aces, theyre my favourite hand and my problem with them is that the flop normally isnt good enough for other players to stick their money in.

Obviously there are flops like 9dTdJd when youre holding black aces but this is generally a dangerous flop for other players aswell so betting out will be profitable

Cianos

No, I mean by the above that when you hold AA you have to protect your hand as it still is only a pair.

NickyOD

Cian in this game 90% of pots are being raised preflop. Preflop reraises generally don't take down pots and utg raises are not respected so limp raising is a far superior play. I have done it in this game with Kings and still got 3 callers. If I open raise to €7 UTG I get 8 callers.

Cianos

NickyOD wrote:

Cian in this game 90% of pots are being raised preflop. Preflop reraises generally don't take down pots and utg raises are not respected so limp raising is a far superior play. I have done it in this game with Kings and still got 3 callers. If I open raise to €7 UTG I get 8 callers.

The game hasnt been specified, all we know is that its PL and loose :v:

cardshark202

Cianos wrote:

Remember, pretty much every flop is a scare flop when you hold AA

That seems a fairly pessimistic and ridiculous statement. There aren't many flops I would be scared of. And limp raising is a far superior play in NL and PL when the games are somewhat loose IMO.

RoundTower

Is the game generally deep? If most pots are raised preflop, but there are few reraises, and there are often several callers, then limp reraising is fine. The exception is if the players will realise you have AA/KK, play well after the flop, and the game is very deep (like 400BB), but probably all three of these aren't the case.

If you know most of the players and you know they don't bet with trips but do bet with two pair then I agree checking is good. I'll remember this next time I'm unfortunate enough to be in Limerick.

Cianos

cardshark202 wrote:

That seems a fairly pessimistic and ridiculous statement. There aren't many flops I would be scared of. And limp raising is a far superior play in NL and PL when the games are somewhat loose IMO.

Its not pessimistic, its a cautionary statement. I dont instantly back down on easily on any flop when I hold AA, please dont get me wrong. All I mean by the statement is that basically you have to be careful not to overplay your AA, just because its AA. Also, you have to protect it by not letting opponents draw cheaply because it seems like a safe flop, because you do only hold a pair.

limp raising is a far superior play in NL and PL when the games are somewhat loose IMO.

Limp raising preflop screams of AA/KK and even bad players will play more cautiously

NickyOD

Cianos wrote:

Limp raising preflop screams of AA/KK and even bad players will play more cautiously

Of course it does, but at these tables there are certain players who you simply cannot stop seeing a flop.

cardshark202

Cianos wrote:

Limp raising preflop screams of AA/KK and even bad players will play more cautiously

Most of the bad players I've played against don't even no what limp raising is, let alone be scared of it.:v:

In pot limit, limp raising is the best way to protect big hands (in most cases), especially in the fitz where most players play any 2 cards and one call is an invitation for everyone to call. I'm sick of "family pots" all the time or some idiot moaning cos someone raised.

The same can be said of NL though not to the same extent.

bohsman

So this game is really loose and you constantly get AA/KK in early position but are unhappy about getting too many callers?

How about teaching them the blind 5 trick, the gamblers will love it and it should lead to more reraises

NickyOD

bohsman wrote:

So this game is really loose and you constantly get AA/KK in early position but are unhappy about getting too many callers?

How about teaching them the blind 5 trick, the gamblers will love it and it should lead to more reraises

Oh don't go there. UTG raises blind to 5, next player reraises blind to 15. I look down at 3-6o and reraise to €50. Both players call. To cut a long stoory short I end up winning a €600 pot.

Cianos

If this is live PL and the game is loose then I would agree that limp raising is the better move. But OP hasnt mentioned anything about live/online and what the stakes are. I think everyone has just presumed he's talking about the Fitz :v:

bohsman

Cianos wrote:

If this is live PL and the game is loose then I would agree that limp raising is the better move. But OP hasnt mentioned anything about live/online and what the stakes are. I think everyone has just presumed he's talking about the Fitz :v:

I would guess its Limerick

Cianos

bohsman wrote:

I would guess its Limerick

?

bohsman

Cianos wrote:

?

New casino opened with very loose cash games

Cianos

Fair enough