Your minimum hands to stay see a flop

celticbhoy

An example

You are playing against 7 players
5 players have more chips than you
Big Blind is 400
You have 3000 in chips so you need to play kinda tight.

My Question:
What are the minimum hands you play to see a flop????

Mine are

sutied: 7, 8 (or higher)

unsuited: K, 6 ((or higher) eg k7, A6 etc))

Pair: 8,8 (or higher)

All-In:K,K (or higher)


Am I playing too loose or tight??

Whats your hands you would play with??

bmc

Tighten up on the A,X and K,X types.

Also, what do you mean by "stay"?

Whether you play any of those hands (excluding AA) should depend on what the betting has been so far, what your position is, etc.

You shouldn't just decide, I'm "staying" or i'm not.

If you're on the button and there's a raise, a reraise and an all-in before you there's very little you can play with... KK, AA...

If it's folded around to you on the button well then most of your hands are fine but should probably be raised rather than just a flat call.

Lots and lots to consider other than just how pretty your two cards are!

Culchie

Celtic, it's too vague a question.

Buy some books to read over the christmas, they will pay for themselves very quickly.

Do a search for 'poker books' on boards, and you'll get some great suggestions

Norwich Fan Rob

wayyyyyyyy loose

K7, A6...........junk.
With those blinds its very hard to limp.
Suited connectors are not what u want with that stack and those blinds either.

That said, it depends more on table position than anything else, and how the action has gone before you.
You need to pick a spot to double up, and fast.
Any big ace or PP is an all in, especially in an unraised pot b4 u act.


unless u have a massive stack, and are trying to run the table, and put small/medium stacks under pressure, and u are on the button or in the cut off, and there are no limpers, and u are feeling adventurous, its not a good spot to be playing K7 off suit.

U might limp with A6 suited with small blinds, to flop 2p or a flush draw, but u would never call a raise with this, unless its an all in by a very small stack, and u have a decent stack.

Again u might reraise on the button with A6 if folded around to you, and u might defend your blind, if u are being attacked by a serial raiser, but u would muck this straight away from any sort of early position.

celticbhoy

bmc wrote:

Also, what do you mean by "stay"?

I mean just to stay and see the flop....

Lets say there is no re-raise before the flop.... and 5 players paid the BB to see the flop.

bmc

celticbhoy wrote:

I mean just to stay and see the flop....

Lets say there is no re-raise before the flop.... and 5 players paid the BB to see the flop.

That sounds like a slightly odd game if that's happening regularly.

If that many people have called the BB ahead of you I'd call with almost any 2 cards but you'd have to throw away the bulk of them after the flop unless you hit something better than a pair.

bmc

By the way, it certainly sounds like you need to do some reading. I'm not the best for book titles, authors, etc but there's plenty out there.

It also sounds like you're playing in a very weak game. While this is a good idea from the point of view of making money, it doesn't teach you terribly much about poker... It might be worth getting yourself into a couple of other cheapish tournaments around the place if you can.

Norwich Fan Rob

5 limpers pre flop with those blinds mmmmmmmmm, reminds me of my homes games with my mates that have played 2 or 3 times, painfull stuff to watch.

a-k-47

id go all in steal the blinds lol...no hang on, id think id get at least 3 callers at that table, a2 a3 a4 better fold!

DubTony

I know this game. It's the Daily freeroll on holdempoker.com. Isn't it? It is. Isn't it?

celticbhoy

Ok, ok… Enough of the piss taking.

It was just a hypothetical situation to see what other players would gamble to see a flop when their back is against the wall. Fair enough I was vague and didn’t mention player traits and other factors, but I just wanted to know what people would do in a similar situation when it came down to it.

Say what you like but I think books can only tell you so much. You really learn poker from experience and lessons learned through various scenarios.

And if everyone played that tight all the time there is no way I would bet against anyone unless I had a practically unbeatable hand
(again in the situation, which is???).

And at that, even if I did bet, who would it be foolish enough to bet against me because my hand is so strong…
unless they had another great hand before the flop?
(which is another reason why I asked what hand you would re-raise/see a flop with in the situation)

Many times a great starting hand has been beaten due to a fluke on the flop etc.

For me holdem is a pre flop game. You need to calculate winning hands when you get them, before the flop… That’s why I asked what hands you would play with.

Waylander

I think you are wrong, the books will speed up the experience learmimg curve to no end, and will definitely make you a more profitable, or at least limit your losses. You say that holdem is a preflop game, and I agree that preflop selection is very imprtant, but how do you expect K6 to be a profitable had to play if there are 5 other players involved. At least one other person will have a K and you are going to be out kickered alot. You need to stop playing those kind of hands.

celticbhoy

Waylander wrote:

but how do you expect K6 to be a profitable had to play if there are 5 other players involved. At least one other person will have a K and you are going to be out kickered alot. You need to stop playing those kind of hands.

I thoroughly agree.

K6 is muck and I retract that statement that I would go see a flop with it, or something similar.

Which begs the next question… if they were suited would you see the flop?

bmc

celticbhoy wrote:

I thoroughly agree.

K6 is muck and I retract that statement that I would go see a flop with it, or something similar.

Which begs the next question… if they were suited would you see the flop?

No.

You really, really, really need to start grasping that what you see a flop with depends HUGELY, almost completely on all of the other factors that you're leaving out.

AQ may look like a good hand but many times I've dropped it as the first person to act. Many times I've raised with it despite others betting in to me. Many times I've raised it with nobody betting in to me. Many, many times I've folded it with others betting into me. Many times I have flat called with it when someone has bet into me. Occassionally I have just called with it when nobody has bet in to me.

There are times when AK is muck, suited or otherwise and there are times when all you need to justify a raise is two cards... any two.

There is no consistency to what hands you are likely to "stay" with, especially when the list of starting hands is as long as your one in your original post.

Your question simply does not have a simple answer.

I haven't got involved in any slagging on this. It sounds like the games you are used to are actually VERY weak games. They will give you a very tainted view of poker.

Culchie

celticbhoy wrote:

Ok, ok… Enough of the piss taking.

It was just a hypothetical situation to see what other players would gamble to see a flop when their back is against the wall. Fair enough I was vague and didn’t mention player traits and other factors, but I just wanted to know what people would do in a similar situation when it came down to it.

Say what you like but I think books can only tell you so much. You really learn poker from experience and lessons learned through various scenarios.

And if everyone played that tight all the time there is no way I would bet against anyone unless I had a practically unbeatable hand
(again in the situation, which is???).

And at that, even if I did bet, who would it be foolish enough to bet against me because my hand is so strong…
unless they had another great hand before the flop?
(which is another reason why I asked what hand you would re-raise/see a flop with in the situation)

Many times a great starting hand has been beaten due to a fluke on the flop etc.

For me holdem is a pre flop game. You need to calculate winning hands when you get them, before the flop… That’s why I asked what hands you would play with.

Thinking of reading books as a form of education.

How many fellahs when you were going to school thought that education was a load of 'tosh' ..... and has your opinion now changed?

Books help, experience helps, bad beats help, analysis helps.

However if you are not going to educate yourself, and are going to play passively in games that are very weak, and futhermore seem to dismiss constructive criticism of your scenario, I'm afraid you are going to remain a losing player, at least when you come accross a game with decent players in it anyway.

padser

http://www.pokerlistings.com/tournament-texas-holdem#gap

Its only a couple of sentences long but it might get across the notion that whether you riase call or fold depends 90% on position, texture of game and previous betting in the hand, 10% max on cards. Eg there are situations where dropping KK pre flop is correct (sometimes maybe even AA) and situations where raising with 72o pre flop is correct (or at least not incorrect).

Its one of the reasons why you will see many players (i dont but i know i should) when they are playing live will watch what all the other players have done before they look at their cards.

The reason for this is for example say you are on the bubble, you are the short stack and are only looking to cash as you are 10 times lower then next stack. 3 players before you go all in. Does it matter what cards you have? Are you calling with 89s? Are you even calling with AA?

Contrast that with table where everyone is limping a lot, but 90% will fold to a raise. 3 limpers, you are on the button. Does it matter what you have? No. If 90% of time people fold to a raise. There are 4.5 bets in pot. A raise needs 5 people to fold. (3 limpers and 2 blinds). 90% chance each one folds. 59% chance all 5 fold. if you double the blind, over half the time you win 4.5 blinds. It makes no difference if you are holding AA or 72, you should be raising.

Id google some articles and buy some books.

Hitman Actual

celticbhoy wrote:

Big Blind is 400
You have 3000 in chips so you need to play kinda tight.

Something obvious which I dont think has been mentioned: You only have 7.5 BB's left, so playing tight is the worst thing you can do. Generally any time you decide to play a hand, you're moving all-in. And depending on circumstances, that hand could be as weak as 56o. HOH vol. 2 gives a very good overview of how to play in this situation. Read both HOH volumes, they will improve your game no end.

Your hand range in general is far too loose, and if this is what you play when you're in "kinda tight" mode, I'd be interested to see what you play when you're in loose mode. Like Culchie said, you will get slaughtered when you progress to a game with decent players. But if you read some books you will definately be a winning player in the game you're playing, which sounds very weak, and it will give you a good foundation to move up.

bmc

P.S.

HOH = Harrington on Holdem

padser

celticbhoy wrote:

Ok, ok… Enough of the piss taking.

It was just a hypothetical situation to see what other players would gamble to see a flop when their back is against the wall. Fair enough I was vague and didn’t mention player traits and other factors, but I just wanted to know what people would do in a similar situation when it came down to it.

Say what you like but I think books can only tell you so much. You really learn poker from experience and lessons learned through various scenarios.

And if everyone played that tight all the time there is no way I would bet against anyone unless I had a practically unbeatable hand
(again in the situation, which is???).

And at that, even if I did bet, who would it be foolish enough to bet against me because my hand is so strong…
unless they had another great hand before the flop?
(which is another reason why I asked what hand you would re-raise/see a flop with in the situation)

Many times a great starting hand has been beaten due to a fluke on the flop etc.

For me holdem is a pre flop game. You need to calculate winning hands when you get them, before the flop… That’s why I asked what hands you would play with.

your 'situation' wasnt vague. It wasnt even a situation. Imagine posting on the soccer on the soccer forum and asking
'ok, your goalkeeper has just kicked the ball to your full back, should he pass the forward, dribble, or pass it back to the goalkeeper.
Thats effectively how vague your question was.

Holdem is not a preflop game, although this is the first (and i have found the easiest) to get right. Whatever about post flop you really can learn pre flop play straight from a book. Its not going to be great, or creative in any way, but it will be passable starting hand selection. And wouldnt include calling a raise with k6....soooted or not!

Amaru

Something obvious which I dont think has been mentioned: You only have 7.5 BB's left, so playing tight is the worst thing you can do. Generally any time you decide to play a hand, you're moving all-in. And depending on circumstances, that hand could be as weak as 56o. HOH vol. 2 gives a very good overview of how to play in this situation. Read both HOH volumes, they will improve your game no end.

Your hand range in general is far too loose, and if this is what you play when you're in "kinda tight" mode, I'd be interested to see what you play when you're in loose mode. Like Culchie said, you will get slaughtered when you progress to a game with decent players. But if you read some books you will definately be a winning player in the game you're playing, which sounds very weak, and it will give you a good foundation to move up.

This is the most pertinant point as well imo. You shouldn't be looking to "see a flop" this short stacked, you should be looking to get it all in, hopefully as a favourite, no matter how slight, and see 5 cards. If you limp to see a flop, you've committed a good portion of an already small stack. What if the flop doesn't hit you? Then what? Fold? Also, suited cards, be it connectors or otherwise, lose most of their value when you're this short stacked, as you don't have the stack to make the implied odds worthwhile.

Culchie

lenny_leonard wrote:

Something obvious which I dont think has been mentioned: You only have 7.5 BB's left, so playing tight is the worst thing you can do. Generally any time you decide to play a hand, you're moving all-in. And depending on circumstances, that hand could be as weak as 56o. HOH vol. 2 gives a very good overview of how to play in this situation. Read both HOH volumes, they will improve your game no end.

Your hand range in general is far too loose, and if this is what you play when you're in "kinda tight" mode, I'd be interested to see what you play when you're in loose mode. Like Culchie said, you will get slaughtered when you progress to a game with decent players. But if you read some books you will definately be a winning player in the game you're playing, which sounds very weak, and it will give you a good foundation to move up.

Of course you are correct Lenny, I didn't bring this point up, as I think OP needs to get the very basics right.

celticbhoy

padser wrote:

your 'situation' wasnt vague. It wasnt even a situation. Imagine posting on the soccer on the soccer forum and asking
'ok, your goalkeeper has just kicked the ball to your full back, should he pass the forward, dribble, or pass it back to the goalkeeper.
Thats effectively how vague your question was.

Lol true, true…

Great advice guys, thanks!

I dont consider myself a weak player or necessary loose either. (although the example would make you think otherwise)

Don’t get me wrong, im not criticising the advice given at all.

I suppose the inspiration about me saying you learn more from experience than books comes from learning from mistakes ive made in the past.

I didn’t mean to sound cocky or ignorant.

I do value poker books for strategy in situations etc

bmc

celticbhoy wrote:

I suppose the inspiration about me saying you learn more from experience than books comes from learning from mistakes ive made in the past.

Absolutely agree whole heartedly. Hence my suggestion of maybe trying out some other tournaments.

That said, I think the lads are right. I think you could speed up the first steps dramatically with the aid of some of those books. As already suggested, Harrington on Holdem Vol. 1 might be a good place to start.

And play a lot!

GL!

BigDragon

The Full Circle of Ace-Rag


by Todd Arnold



Ace-rag. A hand despised by many and misplayed by most. Just the thought of a specific hand and how good or bad it is makes my skin crawl. As I have written about previously, it’s not the cards you hold. It’s all about situations, representations, and expectations. But, many of the players who I coach ask me how to play certain hands or if I ever play certain hands. The most common hand in question is ace-rag. It is an interesting hand in my opinion and has an odd evolution.

For beginning or newbie players, ace-rag is played to death. They just love any ace and usually see the flop if they have one. However, they misplay it horribly and usually get killed and go broke. They cry of bad beats when K-10 or 8-7 beats them and go right back to making the same mistakes with it. The problem is that they do not bet the hand correctly to find out information on opponents’ hands. They also do not choose the right times to play the hand. They play it every time and do so either ultra-aggressively or way too passively. They are also making crucial calls with it. These are some of the mistakes that lead to disaster. But, it’s not the fault of the hand; it’s the player’s fault.

In stage two of the evolution of ace-rag, the intermediate players hate it. These are the guys that think they are really good now and swear by math, position, and hand selections. The Sklansky Fundamentalists, I call them. A good start but certainly not the key to no-limit hold’em. Once players have been beaten down enough times with ace-rag, they finally have a (misguided) “moment of clarity.” Now the mindset is, “I never play ace-rag, I don’t play anything less than A-J/10 and it better be suited or in good position.” They cry whenever someone calls with ace-rag and beats their J-J.

Yuck! This mindset is almost worse than overplaying the hell out of a hand like the beginners. Just as you should never have a plan to play a certain style in a tournament, you should also never predetermine what hands you will or will not play. Wrong thought process. Play situational poker, and if that means that 9 3 is a hand worth raising with, then do it. Stop thinking of what hand you hold and be aware of exactly what situation you are in.
For an advanced player, ace-rag becomes a completely playable hand again. Like the beginning player, the advanced player will play it with confidence. The difference is, the advanced player makes good decisions and plays the hand well.

To play it effectively, he takes into consideration all variables, just as he does with every hand he chooses to play, whether it be 5 3, pocket kings, or ace-rag. He looks at the situation. First, what is his own image and what do his opponents expect him to do? Then, how is the rhythm of his game going? Is it time he raised a pot? What has the action been in front of him and by whom? What is the expected action after him based on his knowledge of the players?
What are the chip counts? What value is there in playing the hand (both chip or cash value and image value)? So, strategically, ace-rag is a “good hand” as is any hand for which the answers to these questions make sense. Also, as I spoke about in my last article, remember the concept of likelihood. The truth is that if you have an ace and another hits the flop, it is unlikely (or mathematically in your favor) that anyone else is holding an ace. Therefore, even fundamentally, ace-rag is a “good hand.”
Now, the point of this article was not to tell you that ace-rag is a monster hand or a trash hand, but rather to show you how thought processes and mind-set determine success in this game. The fact is that the same cards in the hands of different players mean different things. As with anything in life, your outlook on the situation makes the difference in how successful the result is. The more aware you are of your surroundings and the more accurate you are with your reads, the more able you will be to win with almost any hand in the correct situation. The fact remains that regardless of what two cards you are playing (even if it’s ace-rag), it boils down to what you make them believe you are holding and what you know they do not have.

Stop playing your cards so much and play the players and the situations!

celticbhoy

BigDragon wrote:

The Full Circle of Ace-Rag
by Todd Arnold
..
Stop playing your cards so much and play the players and the situations!

Game


Set


Match

Ste05

celticbhoy wrote:

Say what you like but I think books can only tell you so much. You really learn poker from experience and lessons learned through various scenarios.

What books give you is an understanding of the basic strategy involved in Poker. From that you build on it through experience, and you learn things that no book can teach you.


I think we were all a little like this below when we first started out. But if you stick at Poker celticbhoy, you should re-read these posts in a couple of months or years....

celticbhoy wrote:

And if everyone played that tight all the time there is no way I would bet against anyone unless I had a practically unbeatable hand
(again in the situation, which is???).

And at that, even if I did bet, who would it be foolish enough to bet against me because my hand is so strong…
unless they had another great hand before the flop?
(which is another reason why I asked what hand you would re-raise/see a flop with in the situation)

This is basically what happens after you get to even a certain level. (not even that high a level) But you need to be able to confuse people into thinking that you might have 78s this time and not AA.

I'll give you a simple example and it might open your eyes slightly. Just as you say you have this amazingly tight image and similarly no-one is playing with you when you raise. Because they all know you only play high pairs and AKs, and always fold to your raise.

Now you have this great image, so if for some reason you decide you want to pick up the blinds and an early position caller, and because no-one has ever called your raises you can safely raise and everyone duly folds. Happy Days, Job done. (But ask yourself did you really need AA or KK to do this, or just the right image??)

Now imagine the opposite situation. Again noone is calling your raises without AA or KK, so you get AKs and you raise, but this time someone re-raises you. :eek: Now you know that no-one will play back at you without AA or KK, so what do you do?? (you should fold if you're fairly sure they have AA or KK). But again did this opponent really need AA or KK to make this move or just the right image and the right read of you????

P.S. Great article BigDragon

NickyOD

celticbhoy wrote:

An example

You are playing against 7 players
5 players have more chips than you
Big Blind is 400
You have 3000 in chips so you need to play kinda tight.

My Question:
What are the minimum hands you play to see a flop????

You have 7.5 big blinds. What do you want to see a flop for? All in preflop is your only move, and your range of all-in hands should be very wide since you are the shortest stack.