.308 Refusal

cantona

Have been refused cert for 308 rifle, reason being military calibre.Can anyone point me to any judgements or like that I can use when I meet Super on Friday.Thanks

civdef

The fact that the calibre is "military" on it's own isn't a valid reason to refuse a cert. There is a list of conditions to be met before granting a cert in the Firearms Acts, so the super has to justify the refusal under one of those.

cantona

Do you have the relevent sections of the act to hand so I can download and print them for presentation?

civdef

Section 4 Firearms Act 1925:

4.—Before granting a firearm certificate to any person under this Act the superintendent of the Gárda Síochána or the Minister (as the case may require) shall be satisfied that such person—

( a ) has a good reason for requiring the firearm in respect of which the certificate is applied for, and

( b ) can be permitted to have in his possession, use, and carry a firearm or ammunition without danger to the public safety or to the peace, and

( c ) is not a person declared by this Act to be disentitled to hold a firearm certificate.

Links to the various Firearms Acts:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1925_17.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964_1.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1971_13.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990_12.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000_20.html

Sparks

There was a case brought on this calibre last year, but it never had a judgement rendered in it, so there wasn't any precedent set to quote cantona But civdef's post is right on the money. Let us know how it goes?

civdef

The Dept of Justice are granting licences to import .308 ammunitoon and rifles no problem AFAIK. People are getting firearms licences for .308s. Might be worth mentioning this to the super and get him to check around.

cantona

Thanks for the help.Will keep you updated.

chem

mmmmm.....could this be a glimps into whats to come? France for example has banned the use of all "military" cals for public use.

Might be that the dear super recieved a memo from above and has started working on it as law already???

civdef

France hasn't, though they do have different categories of firearm with varying strictness of conditions to licence them.

Italy and I think Spain, to mention two, ban military calibres, but that restriction goes way back.

demonloop

I heard if you applied for 7.62mm then most thicko Guards wouldn't realise it was the same and forget the 'military' aspect. Not sure how much truth in it though.

Clare gunner

civdef wrote:

France hasn't, though they do have different categories of firearm with varying strictness of conditions to licence them.

Italy and I think Spain, to mention two, ban military calibres, but that restriction goes way back.

France as such does not have a ban on mil calibres.It is just more hassle to actually own one than it is worth in the paperwork.Hence the french go either up or down in the calibre. IE 9mm becomes 10mm ,223 becomes 222, 308 becomes 300win mag. Ditto Spain,but they are more stingent in ownership.Italy is the only one with the total civillian ban on mil calibres.
Maybe we might want to consider keeping the French idea over here if they persist in this nonsense.

Sparks

I don't see how you'd be able to define a calibre as "military" though. For instance, the NATO 5.56mm round is not the same as the civilian .223 round - put a round for one rifle in the chamber of another and you're asking for trouble a few inches from your face :eek:
Besides which, pretty much every calibre out there has been used for military applications at one point or another. And those that haven't (say, 10mm for example) have been used in other similar areas (10mm, for example, is the standard issue for the FBI and other police groups in the US).

Barry Aldwell

Sparks wrote:

I don't see how you'd be able to define a calibre as "military" though. For instance, the NATO 5.56mm round is not the same as the civilian .223 round - put a round for one rifle in the chamber of another and you're asking for trouble a few inches from your face :eek:

A bad example - .223 Remmington can be used in a 5.56mm M193 military rifle with no problems. The opposite, however, does not hold true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223

Mr_G^_^

military calibre sounds like a "buzz word" excuse for just not wanting to give you your license

12 gauge is a military calibre also is it not ie 00 buckshot so argue that shotguns see combat too maybe?
You could always use the old adage its not the gun its the nut behind the butt!

seriously these people should learn how to do their jobs!

(and yes i have suffered in the past due to garda ignorance regarding guns)

Clare gunner

Mr_G^_^ wrote:

military calibre sounds like a "buzz word" excuse for just not wanting to give you your license

12 gauge is a military calibre also is it not ie 00 buckshot so argue that shotguns see combat too maybe?
You could always use the old adage its not the gun its the nut behind the butt!

seriously these people should learn how to do their jobs!

(and yes i have suffered in the past due to garda ignorance regarding guns)

Think what our lords&masters....err..public servants in the form of gardai are trying to say is;
that it is a military caliber issued to the Irish army. [308,223,9mm] and that we are all going to rise up one day and overthrow the Irish state,and that we could forage off the Irish army for ammo.So youse is not gettin dem type calibres .Or some other such paranoid 1970 type thinking.Simply put as well,cant and wont be arsed to change in their set ways,and too Hell with the law and their direct superiors say regarding this issue.Basically a law unto themselves regarding firearms,and who will challange them?:mad:

There has always been big debate wether the 12 ga and 22lr are military calibres as well.As the USA is still ASFIK the only army that issues shotguns as accepted arms and that the 22lr has been issued as a covert weapon to various occupied countries during and post ww2 by various allied countries.Are they military calibres as well?

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Think what our lords&masters....err..public servants in the form of gardai are trying to say is;
that it is a military caliber issued to the Irish army. [308,223,9mm] and that we are all going to rise up one day and overthrow the Irish state,and that we could forage off the Irish army for ammo.So youse is not gettin dem type calibres .Or some other such paranoid 1970 type thinking.

Not so sure it was the average joe soap they were worried about, so much as the IRA joe soaps CG. Yes, they didn't bother with licences - but the idea that they could have legally sourced ammo down here for illegal abuse up there - well, I may not agree with their method or think that they've done the feasibility study right, but I can at least see their point.

Simply put as well,cant and wont be arsed to change in their set ways,and too Hell with the law and their direct superiors say regarding this issue.Basically a law unto themselves regarding firearms,and who will challange them?:mad:

Well, the new situation will be that you won't have any legal grounds on which to challange them, so I'd get used to it!

There has always been big debate wether the 12 ga and 22lr are military calibres as well.As the USA is still ASFIK the only army that issues shotguns as accepted arms and that the 22lr has been issued as a covert weapon to various occupied countries during and post ww2 by various allied countries.Are they military calibres as well?

Depends on how you define "military calibre" I guess. I'd love to see a written definition of that one!

Mr_G^_^

you probably wouldn't be granted a license to view it :rolleyes:

FLAG

Cantona

1) Have you made an appointment to see the Superintendent?
2) What is your reason for requiring a .308 target/deer stalking
3) Is it a new application or do you already have a highpower rifle of any calibre?

Actions
a) Need to decide how badly you want the rifle
b) Reason if the Super continues to maintain his current position then you need to take Judicial Review Proceedings, you cannot and will not loose, they will concede before it goes to court
c) If you decide to take Judicial Review Proceedings you need the refusal in writing stating the reasons.
d) If you do not intend to take it that far forget it and wait till the new firearms amendments are brought into law: about June 2006.
e) Reason: Statutory requirement to make a decision to issue a firearms cert within 3 months, refusal can be appealed to the district court!

Need to make hard choices: would a 6.5x55 do you, if so you are more likely to get it than the .308

Regards
Declan Keogh
FLAG

cantona

1)Made appt to see Super last Friday for appointment tomorrow.Was told to expect call to confirm and set time.Nothing doing.Rang today got same answer but still have no confirmation.

2)Reason given in application Target Shooting

3)Already have .40 Pistol.

4)Have letter of refusal from local Sgt citing military calibre and advising to apply for smaller calibre.On phone today was told by District Sgt that recommendation for .22 or .22-50 came from NAMED Sgt in Firearm section

civdef

FLAG, in the judicial reviews so far that were conceded, how was the issue of costs resoved?

Clare gunner

QUOTE] but the idea that they could have legally sourced ammo down here for illegal abuse up there - well, I may not agree with their method or think that they've done the feasibility study right, but I can at least see their point. [/QUOTE]
kind of missed the fact that 9mm,308 and latterly 223 and 7.62X39 is the most common calibres on the planet,and an actual trade good on the international arms market even back then.Plus it is easier to shift ammo than the guns.

Well, the new situation will be that you won't have any legal grounds on which to challange them, so I'd get used to it!

EH?I thought that was the whole point of taking them to the district court,so as that they might explain themselves as to why they wont issue and to be told by the court to issue said plantiff with his liscense.

FLAG

CIVDEF

All cases conceded with costs paid for by you and I, "The State"

Declan

Of the 30 cases taken to date not one has failed while some are ongoing these are most likley to be conceded with costs also.

Cantona: A letter from the Sgt is not worth the paper it is written on, he has no authority on the matter, I would expect that you are being blocked by the Sgt, well worth suggesting that you will take it to the courts!

demonloop

What Sparks said about every calibre being 'military' is dead right. They have used everything at some stage. And if there is an issue with that why is the state issuing certificates for 9mm / .45 / .40 / .38 pistols? Do the military not use them?

And also the military usually adopt the cheapest, most effective rounds for mass produced service weapons e.g. 7.62mm (.308), 5.56mm and 9mm.

Is it not fair to assume these round would be effective and cheap for the civilian shooting community as well. I think the civilian shooting community should be commended on their choice for choosing 'military' calibres and not banned from them.

jaycee

Those who follow the "Military calibre " line of logic ..
Might like to have a look here ...

http://p077.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm23

The .22LR (Normal .22) ..is a military round too.

Also used for a lot of what used to be called "wet Work.." :eek:

woody

.308" is not a military calibre it is not used in this army or the british.

We use 7.62MM which may be similar to the above calibre but is not again from experience the Police generalise and have very little knowledge.

I would try again and is necessary seek legal action if need be.

Next thing they will say .177" is a military calibre and then were all F*cked

Clare gunner

[

308" is not a military calibre it is not used in this army or the british.

We use 7.62MM which may be similar to the above calibre but is not again from experience the Police generalise and have very little knowledge

.

So have the FCA or reserve gone from the FN FAL NATO or 308?Ironically they ended up with the better weapon.FN FAL,proably [next to the HK G3 of course] or the Garand one of the best rifles ever built .

BTW the 308 is the same as 7.62.It was called .308 because the US who was supplying NATO in the 50s named it that,as it is an imperial measurement the Europeans standardised it to 7.62 NATO or some historical snippet like that.

Barry Aldwell

Clare gunner wrote:

[.

So have the FCA or reserve gone from the FN FAL NATO or 308?Ironically they ended up with the better weapon.FN FAL,proably [next to the HK G3 of course] or the Garand one of the best rifles ever built .

BTW the 308 is the same as 7.62.It was called .308 because the US who was supplying NATO in the 50s named it that,as it is an imperial measurement the Europeans standardised it to 7.62 NATO or some historical snippet like that.

The RDF are now equipped with the Steyr AUG as standard. GPMGs (7.62mm NATO machine gun) are being introduced to all units, to replace the Bren LMG.

The reason the round is referred to as 7.62mm NATO is because there are a lot of other rounds of .308/7.62mm calibre, and referring to the round by it's official name eliminates any possible confusion. While it is technically of calibre .308, and is sold on the civilian market as .308 Winchester, referring to it as 7.62mm NATO would be regarded as best practise, to avoid confusion.

jeffshc1

Military caliber sounds like the assault weapon slang in the US.
My loose translation, if the people in charge are afraid of it no one should have it (but them).
As far as caliber goes what size doesn't apply to military somewhere down the line.

woody

Well very true Jeff, to be honest with the Police here it is lack of education and training, what were really trying to get at is that to me as ex-army I would class .308" Winchester as a sporting or hunting round aka 7.62MM which to them sounds like a more aggresive calibre etc etc it is about wording and no more.

Also if challenged in court it would most likely turn out to be in the favour of the shooter but a precedent has to be set.

Okay a legitmate reason to have it... eg. Deer Hunting, Target shooting, if the OP is a member of a club or holds a deer hunting license this may strengthen his case...eventhough currently in Ireland the two calibres for the above hunting would Primarily be .243" and .270" but .308" IMHO would give a cleaner kill and be more accurate and humane overall

Clare gunner

ASFIK on military using all types of calibres.No army ever issued to their troops a 375 H&H or 416 rigby.Think the biggest ever issued was 30/40 Krag.
Not forgetting another ligit use is practical rifle,but I suppose that is target shooting as well.Well, like I said before if they want to be so damn pickey on military calibres we should go like the French,up or down from the military calibre. 10mm instead of 9mm 300Win mag instead of 308. 222 instead of 223
All work pretty well in the guns that were orginally intended for military cals.

cantona

After making contact with station 38 times(documented) since 09/05,including phone calls, letters, registered letters and planting myself in station 3 times for total of 4+ hours.........Result

REFUSED.

Reasons:as of 04/06 appreciate concern over delay but
only got application on 28/09/05

Checked with ballistics section and
1)Unsuitable military calibre
2)Sniper and machine gun calibre
3)undesirable crossover mil and civ
4)other cal just as good

Look for something smaller(will consider)


In refusing Application, my reasons


a)Not in public interest

b)Not in public interest(Ballistics Section)

c)Consider smaller calibre

d)Just because available, should not be for public

e)Not satisified to your reasons


All this after submitting documentation the size of a phone book relating how .308/7.62 is the internationally recognised calibre for Long range target shooting


FOOTNOTE: Letter in name of Super but UNSIGNED and parting comment reads

"If this does not meet your requirements,I will attend Court on the date of your choosing subject to you appealing this decision"



Comments please.

maglite

Checked with ballistics section and
1)Unsuitable military calibre
2)Sniper and machine gun calibre
3)undesirable crossover mil and civ
4)other cal just as good

2) so is a .22lr the isrealies used it
3) the military use almost ever other calliber
4)not sure how you would explain


and how exactly did you plant youself in the station;)

Sparks

cantona wrote:

FOOTNOTE: Letter in name of Super but UNSIGNED and parting comment reads
"If this does not meet your requirements,I will attend Court on the date of your choosing subject to you appealing this decision"
Comments please.

Sounds like the superintendent doesn't like the idea of anyone in his district having a fullbore rifle and he's read the CJB and decided that with it coming in, there'll be no need to have to issue licences because by the time it gets to court the law will have changed. Highly bloody cynical abuse if you ask me. When you stated long-range target shooting did you specify a specific discipline like Palma or the UK NRA's match rifle discipline?

bernard93

Cantona,

Defo make the point that all fullbore postion target rifle shooting goverened by the British Nra is shot with 7.62 or 0.308 calibre rifles, ifs its TR or MATCH rifle its still the same cabilre only a different bullet weight and modifications to the rifle, Also as sparks said if you want to shoot Palma rifle you have to use a .308.

Its always worth a try...

What rifle are you going after?

Or what you could do is apply for a .243 and get it rebarrled to .308 in a couple of months time. Most of the firearms garda in the stations will change your cert for you there and then...;)

Sparks

Or what you could do is apply for a .243 and get it rebarrled to .308 in a couple of months time. Most of the firearms garda in the stations will change your cert for you there and then...

Hmmm. It is a bit of an abuse, but the concept - showing that a .243 is safe so a .308 wouldn't be abused - well, I guess that might be more acceptable to the Superintendent. Doesn't sound like it from the tone of his note though. Cantona, any objection to telling us which district this is for? Maybe some other posters have been licenced through there and might have something to add?

Sparks

And if worst came to the worst, do the UK NRA still allow you to shoot match rifle with .303s?

cantona

Included details of all relevant disciplines including palma,f-class, match, target etc.Gave him printouts covering everthing.

Fitzgibbon St.

Dvs

cantona wrote:

Reasons:as of 04/06 appreciate concern over delay but
only got application on 28/09/05

Checked with ballistics section and
1)Unsuitable military calibre
2)Sniper and machine gun calibre
3)undesirable crossover mil and civ
4)other cal just as good

Look for something smaller(will consider)


In refusing Application, my reasons


a)Not in public interest

b)Not in public interest(Ballistics Section)

c)Consider smaller calibre

d)Just because available, should not be for public

e)Not satisified to your reasons


All this after submitting documentation the size of a phone book relating how .308/7.62 is the internationally recognised calibre for Long range target shooting


FOOTNOTE: Letter in name of Super but UNSIGNED and parting comment reads

"If this does not meet your requirements,I will attend Court on the date of your choosing subject to you appealing this decision"



Comments please.

1)Unsuitable military calibre
As previously stated by others could be said of just about any calibre.

2)Sniper and machine gun calibre
Does this mean, your Superintendent is of the belief that you might become a Sniper if you were in possession of a .308 !
Or that you have an illegal machine gun, that you wish to source ammo for ?

3)undesirable crossover mil and civ
Undesirable how exactly? for whom?
Does this mean, your Superintendent thinks you are a criminal,
who will steal ammo from the military, or are members of the military giving away ammo on street corners?

4)other cal just as good
Not for you, you are a law abiding person and you want to buy a .308 rifle to take part in your chosen shooting sport.

If your Superintendent or the officers in the Ballistics Section,
decide to take up rifle shooting,then their opinion on whats good will have some bearing,then they can decide what good for them,
for their chosen disipline!


a)Not in public interest= made up reason not supported in law,
This is not a reason of disentitlement, as contained in the firearms act and it's ammendments.

b)Not in public interest(Ballistics Section)=same as above.

c)Consider smaller calibre=barter
Why should you, you want a .308 your not disentitled.

d)Just because available, should not be for public=Opinion
Not supported by law

e)Not satisified to your reasons=I am the law

"If this does not meet your requirements,I will attend Court on the date of your choosing subject to you appealing this decision"= F**k you, if you think you can threaten me with the High court!



If your a Member contact Des Crofton at the NARGC.

Contact Flag directly by PM thru the boards.

Dvs.

cantona

Decided to test the waters with application for 22.
Applied Sat AM.Got phone call today 3PM asking me would it be ok to drop
CERTIFICATE up to the house on wed. evening.
Awaiting in hope.

babybundy

chance your arm and ask for a fn fal with a 22 adapter or just for the fun an m60 for alot of rabbits or sheep if you are military

Rew

Cantona:

What rifle had you before your .308 application?

17HMR

maglite wrote:

Checked with ballistics section and
1)Unsuitable military calibre
2)Sniper and machine gun calibre
3)undesirable crossover mil and civ

Military calibre ?
.50BMG is a military calibre.
.308 ?
Hardly.

Why don't they issue certs based on muzzle energy ?
Why not a simply catagorisation like (off the top of my head):

Cat 1 <1 ft/lb Unrestricted (Airsoft)
Cat 2 1-20 ft/lb Restricted to 16yrs of age, 14 supervised (Airguns)
Cat 3 20-300 ft/lb FAC, basic conditions (Airguns, rimfire)
Cat 4 300-1000 ft/lb FAC + (Most handguns, .22 hornet)
Cat 5 1000-2000 ft/lb FAC ++ (.223 etc)
Cat 6 2000-3000 ft/lb FAC +++ (6mm etc)
Cat 7 3000-4000 ft/lb FAC ++++ (.308 etc)
Cat 8 >4000 ft/lb FAC +++++ (.458 etc)

The further up the list you go, the better storage you need, the better reasons you need to have it etc.

Something clear and simple. No local interpretation required.
Meet the requirements and you can have it. End of story.

Sparks

17HMR wrote:

Militaty calibre ?
.50BMG is a military calibre.
.308 ?
Hardly.

.308 being mixed up here in the super's mind with the 7.62mm NATO round I'd imagine.

Why don't they issue certs based on muzzle energy ?

Beats most of us. Lack of technical knowlege at the policy-making level I'd imagine.

Cat 2 1-20 ft/lb Restricted to 16yrs of age, 14 supervised (Airguns)

20 foot-pounds would be a bit hefty for an air rifle. You'd want an FAC in the UK for such an airgun. Seven Joules is the limit in Germany, that seems to work quite well. And the age ought to be 12 for supervised training, not 14.

17HMR

No doubt it would need fine tuning.....

As I said, 'twas off the top of my head (and .308 should have been in Cat 6 I think).

It the principal I'm suggesting.

The principal of a clear catagorisation where everyone, shooter and Garda, knows where they stand.

Vegeta

17HMR wrote:

Militaty calibre ?
.50BMG is a military calibre.
.308 ?
Hardly.

Why don't they issue certs based on muzzle energy ?
Why not a simply catagorisation like (off the top of my head):

Cat 1 <1 ft/lb Unrestricted (Airsoft)
Cat 2 1-20 ft/lb Restricted to 16yrs of age, 14 supervised (Airguns)
Cat 3 20-300 ft/lb FAC, basic conditions (Airguns, rimfire)
Cat 4 300-1000 ft/lb FAC + (Most handguns, .22 hornet)
Cat 5 1000-2000 ft/lb FAC ++ (.223 etc)
Cat 6 2000-3000 ft/lb FAC +++ (6mm etc)
Cat 7 3000-4000 ft/lb FAC ++++ (.308 etc)
Cat 8 >4000 ft/lb FAC +++++ (.458 etc)

The further up the list you go, the better storage you need, the better reasons you need to have it etc.

Something clear and simple. No local interpretation required.
Meet the requirements and you can have it. End of story.

Cos your proposal makes too much sense and is logical why would anybody ever try to implement such a well though out scheme.

Seriously this government is a joke, I have yet to say "well that's a good idea" most things that run smoothly in Ireland are just copied from other nations who did it first. Ireland is very bad at solving its own problems.

Vegeta

17HMR wrote:

No doubt it would need fine tuning.....

As I said, 'twas off the top of my head (and .308 should have been in Cat 6 I think).

It the principal I'm suggesting.

The principal of a clear catagorisation where everyone, shooter and Garda, knows where they stand.

I really like this idea, as you say it'd need fine tuning and some consultation with people who know about all aspects of shooting.

17HMR

And shotguns.....
How is it that shotguns appear to be the easiest firearm to get licenced ?

Muzzle energy of a 12 gauge shotgun firing 00 shot is up there with a .223.
Certainly doesn't have the range (which is an important consideration)....but, close up, it'll make a bigger mess.

Perhaps shotguns require categories of thier own based on gauge/action ?


The bit below from : http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotguns_protection_field.htm

If you figure out the total muzzle energy (ME) of a standard 12 gauge, 2 3/4", 00 buckshot load, which launches 9 pellets at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1325 fps, it is roughly similar to that of the old .45-70 405 grain rifle load (MV 1330 fps, ME 1590 ft. lbs.);

cantona

Never had rifle before, but proved my capability with proof of participation in All-Army 7 times with rifle and 6 times with LMG.Also same Super licenced me last Sept for .40 pistol in less than 3 weeks(with much pressure and update phone calls).Also provided details of all courses taken(many overseas with military and police).He dosen't dispute my qualifications only my reasons.

Dvs

cantona wrote:

Never had rifle before, but proved my capability with proof of participation in All-Army 7 times with rifle and 6 times with LMG.Also same Super licenced me last Sept for .40 pistol in less than 3 weeks(with much pressure and update phone calls).Also provided details of all courses taken(many overseas with military and police).He dosen't dispute my qualifications only my reasons.

I hate to say it cantona,
But I see his point, if you could change your calibre of rifle required by you from a .308 to a .22lr and think this is acceptable!

If you felt the need to haggle with your Superintendent,and had said to him, well if you won't issue a license for a .308,
will you issue a .223,.243 or a 6.5x55 then, you might have shown that you did, as you stated to him in your application,
need a rifle for long range target shooting disiplines,
if a .22lr will suffice then it seems this was not the case.

Not only that, but it gives creedence to the idea that,
the powers that be can fob you off with makey up law, and it will work.

If your thinking, that you can put in another application in a month or two and get a centerfire, failing a change of Superintendent,
you may be told, ahh sure see how you get on with that .22lr for a while.....

Just my 2cents €uro.

Dvs.

cantona

.22 is not instead of .308 but for gallery and mini-practical.Have been in contact with FLAG and discussions are ongoing.No where does it sat that just because I have a .22 (that i use for different disciplines) that I cannot have a .308.This has not ended yet.

Dvs

cantona wrote:

.22 is not instead of .308 but for gallery and mini-practical.

Your Superintendent may not see it that way, unless you made it very clear!

cantona wrote:

.Have been in contact with FLAG and discussions are ongoing.No where does it sat that just because I have a .22 (that i use for different disciplines) that I cannot have a .308.

It's in the same place that, it does not say any of the other stuff,
your Superintendent told you !

cantona wrote:

This has not ended yet.

I'm glad to hear it!

Dvs.