Interesting Omaha hand: when should I raise?

RoundTower

Haven't played this for ages, and had forgotten how great it is. I have to decide whether or not to raise the flop, then whether or not to raise the turn, then whether or not to bet the river. Villain is not great, but aggressive; raising the flop will not get me a free card on fourth street, and I have seen him put in the third bet on the flop too often for it to be the nuts every time. He will fold if he thinks he's beaten. How should I play?

Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
Roanoke 4914665-31643 Omaha Pot Limit $2/$4
[Dec 20 17:36:41] : Hand Start.
[Dec 20 17:36:41] : Seat 1 : Iver_Bruce has $256
[Dec 20 17:36:41] : Seat 2 : tryerboy has $497.50
[Dec 20 17:36:41] : Seat 3 : roundtower has $965.56
[Dec 20 17:36:41] : Seat 4 : Auremaa24 has $468.25
[Dec 20 17:36:41] : Seat 5 : C DeVille has $141.75
[Dec 20 17:36:41] : Seat 6 : monty19 has $188.50
[Dec 20 17:36:41] : roundtower is the dealer.
[Dec 20 17:36:42] : Auremaa24 posted small blind.
[Dec 20 17:36:43] : C DeVille posted big blind.
[Dec 20 17:36:43] : Game [31643] started with 6 players.
[Dec 20 17:36:43] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Dec 20 17:36:43] : Seat 3 : roundtower has As 9c 2s 8h
[Dec 20 17:36:46] : monty19 folded.
[Dec 20 17:36:48] : Iver_Bruce folded.
[Dec 20 17:36:50] : tryerboy called $4
[Dec 20 17:36:52] : roundtower called $4
[Dec 20 17:36:52] : Auremaa24 folded.
[Dec 20 17:37:02] : C DeVille checked.
[Dec 20 17:37:04] : Dealing flop.
[Dec 20 17:37:04] : Board cards [Js 3d Ts]
[Dec 20 17:37:05] : C DeVille checked.
[Dec 20 17:37:12] : tryerboy bet $14
[Dec 20 17:37:16] : roundtower called $14
[Dec 20 17:37:21] : C DeVille folded.
[Dec 20 17:37:21] : Dealing turn.
[Dec 20 17:37:21] : Board cards [Js 3d Ts 4d]
[Dec 20 17:37:30] : tryerboy bet $42
[Dec 20 17:37:33] : roundtower called $42
[Dec 20 17:37:34] : Dealing river.
[Dec 20 17:37:34] : Board cards [Js 3d Ts 4d Ad]
[Dec 20 17:37:40] : tryerboy checked.
[Dec 20 17:37:43] : roundtower??

Lafortezza

It looks like villain has JJxx or TTxx, potting the flop and turn in the hope that the current nuts will remain the nuts. So a raise by you on either street will probably get a repot/all-in by him.

The nuts change on the river, and Villain (if he has top or middle set) is probably gone into check/call mode. Running diamonds is a bit unlikely for you but a hand like AKQx with a spade draw (or not) is a possibility.
Villain has a decent stack left so I might be tempted to bluff the river but I'd imagine you'd get a crying call too often for this to be profitable.

Bozzer

I’ve never played omaha but this looks like an easy check behind if opponent is any good.
I’d imagine it’s fairly standard for your opponent to check call any non-spade river (with top/middle set) given how you’ve played thus far. If opponent is laying down sets to completed straight draws here then I'm guessing he’d be run over.
I would have played the flop and turn the same as you.
You don’t wanna re-open the betting or inflate the pot size on the flop. Once you call the flop I can’t see how you could raise the turn because what big hand calls a bet on this flop 3-way then raises on the turn.


I don’t want to hijack the thread but I’ve got a couple of questions for any omaha connoisseur’s, given that I’m considering taking it up:

(1) If Roundtower had As 9c 2d 8h do you think he could profitably call the flop bet against the villain as he’s described (assume that it’s headsup and not threeway)?
I’m thinking the combination of implied odds if you make a straight and steal equity if the spade draw hits might make it a profitable call. If you bluff the flush it'll probably be more successful given that you hold the As.
What if it was the Ah? Would that be stretching it?

(2) If you were villain playing against hero, would your play change at all if you had JJxx/TTxx/33xx?

(3) Would anyone isolate preflop? Not on the basis of hand strength but I figure if you get it heads up in position then your postflop edge will be great enough to justify the isolation. You're not gonna be worried about a lrr given that villain open limped from the CO.

RoundTower

Bozzer wrote:

I’ve never played omaha but this looks like an easy check behind if opponent is any good.
I’d imagine it’s fairly standard for your opponent to check call any non-spade river (with top/middle set) given how you’ve played thus far. If opponent is laying down sets to completed straight draws here then I'm guessing he’d be run over.
I would have played the flop and turn the same as you.
You don’t wanna re-open the betting or inflate the pot size on the flop. Once you call the flop I can’t see how you could raise the turn because what big hand calls a bet on this flop 3-way then raises on the turn.

Check calling here is very dangerous in omaha. Some opponents have to have made a hand (nut straight or some kind of flush) to bet here. I would often muck the nut straight here as villain, assuming I had backed into it somehow, and I think I play loose. Many opponents will simply not bet here unless they can beat a set.

Bozzer wrote:

I don’t want to hijack the thread but I’ve got a couple of questions for any omaha connoisseur’s, given that I’m considering taking it up:

(1) If Roundtower had As 9c 2d 8h do you think he could profitably call the flop bet against the villain as he’s described (assume that it’s headsup and not threeway)?
I’m thinking the combination of implied odds if you make a straight and steal equity if the spade draw hits might make it a profitable call. If you bluff the flush it'll probably be more successful given that you hold the As.
What if it was the Ah? Would that be stretching it?

(2) If you were villain playing against hero, would your play change at all if you had JJxx/TTxx/33xx?

(3) Would anyone isolate preflop? Not on the basis of hand strength but I figure if you get it heads up in position then your postflop edge will be great enough to justify the isolation. You're not gonna be worried about a lrr given that villain open limped from the CO.

Don't worry about hijacking the thread, I'm delighted to see any Omaha discussion here. Do take it up, but play on Pokerstars or Party or somewhere else.

1) yes you can call here with As 9x 8x, because you are in position and villain will lay down if a spade comes. Calling with the Ah (= just the 8x 9s) here is one of my leaks, I don't think you should do it. Maybe if there is likely to be another player and you are likely to get a free card on the turn, even then it's loose.

2) Not the way this hand was played. If I get raised on the flop obviously I have to think about laying down the 33 or to a lesser extent TT.

3) Isolation preflop is not a prominent concept in PLO in my experience. I'm not counting the cases where you have a big pair and can get it heads up for most of the money. Raising here is unlikely to isolate the limper: someone will find a hand worth calling $20 out of position. I raise here only if I'm on tilt or running over the table.

Lafortezza

Bozzer wrote:

(1) If Roundtower had As 9c 2d 8h do you think he could profitably call the flop bet against the villain as he’s described (assume that it’s headsup and not threeway)?
I’m thinking the combination of implied odds if you make a straight and steal equity if the spade draw hits might make it a profitable call. If you bluff the flush it'll probably be more successful given that you hold the As.
What if it was the Ah? Would that be stretching it?

Dunno what you mean about the Ah. To bluff with the bare As needs the Villain to be average-good. Bad players will call and pray for the board to pair, good or better players may read you for the bluff and test you.

Bozzer wrote:

(2) If you were villain playing against hero, would your play change at all if you had JJxx/TTxx/33xx?

I'd play it the same way. Pot the flop and turn, check/call the river. By check/calling the river you lose the least when behind to the straight/flush, and you also win more when you pick off a bluff. I'd play 33xx alot slower unless I had another draw to go with it. Even if you make your house JTxx will have an overfull.

Bozzer wrote:

(3) Would anyone isolate preflop? Not on the basis of hand strength but I figure if you get it heads up in position then your postflop edge will be great enough to justify the isolation. You're not gonna be worried about a lrr given that villain open limped from the CO.

Roundtowers hand is not that strong really to raise preflop to get the Blinds out. He is going to have to semi/bluff/bluff/continuation bet too often into a player with a decent hand (if he calls the PF raise).

Bozzer

Forgot about this thread.
Thanks for replying to the omaha noob.

I thought it was interesting that villain check-calling a set on the river wasn't necessarily standard given how the hand played out.
I suppose a bluffer representing the straight isn't expecting the set to fold here and so it's sort of cyclical(if that makes any sense).

About the isolation question, if both you and CO had at least 200bb's and you knew the blinds to be tight, then would there be case for isolation?
I ask this because i can see how important position is in plo and obviously position grows in importance once stacks get deep.

RoundTower

Yeah I expect a set to fold here at least 3 times in 4. You avoid being run over by not check calling on the end because occasionally you will have backed into a straight or a small flush and you can catch a bluff then, or against a very aggressive player you often check the nut flush here.

Anyway I bet the pot, which was probably too much, and he called me with a set. So maybe you were right all along.