Does God exist? the definitive answer.

amigaboy

Have a look at this thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054863603

wiseones2cents

Interact with the Universe????He IS the universe. GOD is Everything. When you understand that their is living energy in all matter dead or living you will understand this. When you begin to understand the Complexity of the fabric of existence, you will realize there is a Ultra Supreme Intelligence involved.

The Universe in itself is PERFECT. Nothing has to be improved upon it.
Therefore GOD did make the best model.

Therefore the conclusion is that GOD does Exist.

samb

wiseones2cents wrote:

The Universe in itself is PERFECT. Nothing has to be improved upon it.
Therefore GOD did make the best model.

Therefore the conclusion is that GOD does Exist.

Say that to the people starving to death every 3 seconds....

Goodshape

wiseones2cents wrote:

Interact with the Universe????He IS the universe. GOD is Everything.

Interesting. Doesn't that contradict what your bible teaches you?

The Universe in itself is PERFECT. Nothing has to be improved upon it.

Shocking! So what 'in Gods name' is your problem with homosexuals?!

Asiaprod

wiseones2cents wrote:

The Universe in itself is PERFECT. Nothing has to be improved upon it.
Therefore GOD did make the best model.

Therefore the conclusion is that GOD does Exist.

How on earth can you arrive at that conclusion from the progression you listed? Who said the universe is perfect and does not need to be improved on?

Bam Bam

Each time people try to justify the existence of god, all you're left with is more questions.

Why not just wait and when the time comes ask him yourself.

Time Magazine

Goodshape wrote:

Interesting. Doesn't that contradict what your bible teaches you?

Show some respect would you? It's called The Bible; speaking of it in such a tone is unncessarily rash. You may not agree with him; but at least show him respect. Especially on this board.

Shocking! So what 'in Gods name' is your problem with homosexuals?

And there you go with the condescending thing again Dare I ask if you can't think for yourself or that you're like that to make up for some insecurity in your life? .

Nothing is wrong with homosexuals. Homosexual acts are defined as wrong for they are not within the bounds of what is considered acceptable, as defined by He who defines what is acceptable. If God exists, (see how I added that just to be nice?) it's not your body; and you cannot do with it what you like. Homosexual acts are clearly defined as sinful.

One of my friends is (in the process of confirming to himself that he is) gay, and I don't have a problem with him. He's a very nice guy, and he's my friend. As a friend, I'll support him and stick up for him when society frowns upon him; but it does not remove from the fact that I think his acts will be sinful. It's his choice to act on his instincts or not; and I'm not going to berate him over it.

There's no contradiction there. It's a personal issue that I think he and God have to settle. (Additionally, I think mentioning it would only create neglect in his mind to God). I know myself that we all sin, and that we're all guilty. Christianity is divided on where to go from here, but I think most reasonable people assume that you have to take the tree out of your eye before you condemn your friend for his splinter.

wiseones2cents

samb wrote:

Say that to the people starving to death every 3 seconds....

Are people starving because of GOD or because of greed?

wiseones2cents

Goodshape wrote:

Interesting. Doesn't that contradict what your bible teaches you?

Contradict the Bible? Not at all.

Shocking! So what 'in Gods name' is your problem with homosexuals?!

Homosexuality is NOT a product of GOD's creation but a product of confusion which results in mis-interprited attraction tothe same sex.

wiseones2cents

Bam Bam wrote:

Each time people try to justify the existence of god, all you're left with is more questions.

Why not just wait and when the time comes ask him yourself.

And I am here to answer those questions as best I can.

wiseones2cents

Asiaprod wrote:

How on earth can you arrive at that conclusion from the progression you listed? Who said the universe is perfect and does not need to be improved on?

Your Joking right? Ok. Tell me how the Universe can be improved. This should be interesting.

Goodshape

Angry Banana wrote:

Show some respect would you? It's called The Bible; speaking of it in such a tone is unncessarily rash. You may not agree with him; but at least show him respect. Especially on this board.

And there you go with the condescending thing again Dare I ask if you can't think for yourself or that you're like that to make up for some insecurity in your life? .

Nothing is wrong with homosexuals. Homosexual acts are defined as wrong for they are not within the bounds of what is considered acceptable, as defined by He who defines what is acceptable. If God exists, (see how I added that just to be nice?) it's not your body; and you cannot do with it what you like. Homosexual acts are clearly defined as sinful.

One of my friends is (in the process of confirming to himself that he is) gay, and I don't have a problem with him. He's a very nice guy, and he's my friend. As a friend, I'll support him and stick up for him when society frowns upon him; but it does not remove from the fact that I think his acts will be sinful. It's his choice to act on his instincts or not; and I'm not going to berate him over it.

There's no contradiction there. It's a personal issue that I think he and God have to settle. (Additionally, I think mentioning it would only create neglect in his mind to God). I know myself that we all sin, and that we're all guilty. Christianity is divided on where to go from here, but I think most reasonable people assume that you have to take the tree out of your eye before you condemn your friend for his splinter.

Sorry. I was carrying over a debate from another thread, shouldn't have done that.

No disrespect meant.

Still though, does The Bible (and, in fairness, there are more than one, but for now we'll accept that I'm referring to the Christian Bibile) not say that God created the world, thus interacting with the universe?

Also, if the God/The Universe is 'PERFECT' and 'nothing has to be improved upon it', then why look upon someones natural homosexual desires (to name but one thing) as not only imperfect but downright wrong?

wiseones2cents wrote:

Homosexuality is NOT a product of GOD's creation

wiseones2cents wrote:

GOD is Everything.

Are you telling me that the above two quotations do not contradict each other?

Looks to me that you are picking and choosing between that which you understand (your own desires), and that which you are do not (other peoples desires).

wiseones2cents

Goodshape wrote:

Still though, does The Bible (and, in fairness, there are more than one, but for now we'll accept that I'm referring to the Christian Bibile) not say that God created the world, thus interacting with the universe?

What is your point?

Also, if the God/The Universe is 'PERFECT' and 'nothing has to be improved upon it', then why look upon someones natural homosexual desires (to name but one thing) as not only imperfect but downright wrong?

GOD built the Universe through LAWS. HIS thoughts are found in all of creation.ALL of the UNIVERSE obeys those laws,except creatures that have been given the gift of free will.

Homosexuality is a product of satan. Although you can say that satan is a product of GOD and satan's free will to break GOD's laws is a product of GOD.

Does not make GOD's laws Imperfect. There is a reason for everything that happens, even though humans are uncapable of understanding.

Its like an ape or child trying to understand the mind of a scientist. It is literally impossible.

Are you telling me that the above two quotations do not contradict each other?

Since GOD is the life force of the Universe. It is safe to say that GOD is everything. Including hoomosexuals. Though thoughts are independant.
GOD chose to give us free will.Man chose to disobey GOD's perfect law.

Therefore homosexuality is a product of disobedience to GOD's laws.

Dades

wiseones2cents wrote:

GOD built the Universe through LAWS. HIS thoughts are found in all of creation.ALL of the UNIVERSE obeys those laws,except creatures that have been given the gift of free will.

Did man's free will kill 80,000 people recently by shaking the ground in Pakistan? Did free will kill one quarter of a million people with a wave last year?

I'm not asking the usual "why do bad things happen to good people" - I just want you to explain to me natural disasters in the context of your perfect universe.

Airblazer

wiseones2cents wrote:

And I am here to answer those questions as best I can.

christ....talk about deluded..it's gonna be a bitch when you die and you find out that there's nothing..oh wait..you'll never know because when you die there's nothing...end of story...
Here's my theory....at the start people worshipped animals/sun/moon etc...this allowed people to take control through worship and guide people..now as people advanced some people began to follow other gods and question their existence..priests knew that without a god chaos and anarchy would rain as people would have no moral code to guide them..so couple of thousand years later a group of clever thinking people decide to invent a god..one which everyone could believe in if given enough proof..and today we still have the same god..in another few thousand years I'm sure it'll be something different..

monkeyfudge

wiseones2cents wrote:

Homosexuality is a product of satan. Although you can say that satan is a product of GOD and satan's free will to break GOD's laws is a product of GOD.

That sounds like a pretty imperfect system right there... Why invent a creature like Satan who is capable of manipulating the minds of men?

Goodshape

Airblazer wrote:

Here's my theory....at the start people worshipped animals/sun/moon etc...this allowed people to take control through worship and guide people..

Actually, I think there's more to be said for worshiping actual things like the animals, the sun and the moon - as these things are entirely neccessary for life on this planet to survive. 'Worship', in terms of what we know the word to mean, may be a little overblown but a respect for the natural and beautiful process of life (animals), the stars (including the sun) and the moon is no bad thing and had little to do with control over the masses.

I believe todays organised religions, including chrisianity, were born out of a hijacking of these perfectly resonable and worthwhile beliefs. It's a pity.

UU

Over 4000 years ago, our ancestors began the creation of possibly man's greatest work of art, a portrait this time in words on papyrus, a portrait of 'God'. It was an invitation for us to recreate 'God' afresh in our minds with each and every generation. Unfortunately this was not to be as 'God's' keepers, realising that they would have no control over our creations, hustled 'God' to safety in heaven, metaphorically turning 'God's' portrait to the wall.

I think it's fair to say I don't believe in 'God' as such or perhaps I just believe in 'God in a different sort of way. I believe much in science and some aspects of religion, mainly Buddhism which is highly Philosophical. I believe that an Infinite Energy, positive and negative[∞±] which creates, preserves and destroys. It created two universes - the Physical Universe 'Materia' the one we exist in, and the Spiritual Universe 'Phasmatis', commonly known as heaven or nirvana. Humans were given a special role as guardians of the Earth and have a unique power 'Vox'. The theta θ(or spirit) of living organisms must span several different lives until they can build up enough 'karma' (positive energy) until they can reach 'Phasmatis' for eternity. Well, that's my belief!

I disbelieve in 'God's Law' as I think law is what humans created (apart from the laws of physics, etc.). Good and evil is natural. Natural disasters are neither (I know I may seem cold) but they occur because of nature. Plates of the Earth's crust constantly move so that old land is destroyed and new land is formed. Something is only a natural disaster when it destroys lives, etc. but the Earth's crust has to be respective to nature and physics and is therefor not evil as such as it is non-living.

Goodshape wrote:

I believe todays organised religions, including Christianity, were born out of a hijacking of these perfectly reasonable and worthwhile beliefs. It's a pity.

Oh, definitely! Especially Christianity which evolved from many Roman Pagan beliefs and traditions - the Christmas tree, carols, presents, Sunday Sabbath, so many! 'The Da Vinci Code' explains it very well and I know it is fictional but some parts of it are true and it really makes one think.

wiseones2cents

The Atheist wrote:

Did man's free will kill 80,000 people recently by shaking the ground in Pakistan? Did free will kill one quarter of a million people with a wave last year?

I'm not asking the usual "why do bad things happen to good people" - I just want you to explain to me natural disasters in the context of your perfect universe.

Every event that happens, happens for a greater purpose. Just because you do not understand it, does not make it imperfect. When you realize that we are very insignificant fleshly beings in the greater scheme of things, you will understand why these things happen.

Also GOD can give eternal life to those that have earned it. Then death does not become a disaster. It becomes salvation(Heaven).

Most Imporatantly.When you understand where there is life there is death and where there is death there is life, you will understand why these things happen. Life is a giant cycle.

Analyze this last statement and you will understand the basic meaning of life.

wiseones2cents

Airblazer wrote:

christ....talk about deluded..it's gonna be a bitch when you die and you find out that there's nothing..oh wait..you'll never know because when you die there's nothing...end of story...
Here's my theory....at the start people worshipped animals/sun/moon etc...this allowed people to take control through worship and guide people..now as people advanced some people began to follow other gods and question their existence..priests knew that without a god chaos and anarchy would rain as people would have no moral code to guide them..so couple of thousand years later a group of clever thinking people decide to invent a god..one which everyone could believe in if given enough proof..and today we still have the same god..in another few thousand years I'm sure it'll be something different..

Lets say for argument sake that life ends and there is nothing(Which is highly illogical). It is still a fact that people that TRULY live by God's laws lead more satisfying lives. So is faith for nothing. Never.

That is not a theory. That is a fact. People worshipped sun/moon/animals/trees,ect..These were used to represent GOD.

Is it GOD that kept them in check or was it GODLY DISCIPLINE? GOD gave them free will but also punished those who did not obey HIS Laws.

When you understand that people advanced because of religion you will be closer to the truth.

GOD was not invented. He was searched for.
It is the searching for GOD, HIS laws and Truth that led to the advancement of religion and humanity.

wiseones2cents

monkeyfudge wrote:

That sounds like a pretty imperfect system right there... Why invent a creature like Satan who is capable of manipulating the minds of men?

Not really. GOD's Laws are perfect. GOD had to give angels/men free will to serve a greater purpose that will be revealed in time.

monkeyfudge

wiseones2cents wrote:

Not really. GOD's Laws are perfect. GOD had to give angels/men free will to serve a greater purpose that will be revealed in time.

But if one creation of god is capable of removing the the free will of another then it simply isn't a very good system. And if everything has a greater purpose and a destiny then there really is no free will at all now is there?

And exactly what leads you to believe in all this? You certainly don't know for sure that any of it is true in any way.

I have no real problems with people who feel the need to believe in a god of some sort as long they talk about it as a belief that they hold. But you're trying to pass off your own personal beliefs as if they were absolute facts that everyone must accept.

wiseones2cents

monkeyfudge wrote:

But if one creation of god is capable of removing the the free will of another then it simply isn't a very good system. And if everything has a greater purpose and a destiny then there really is no free will at all now is there?

And exactly what leads you to believe in all this? You certainly don't know for sure that any of it is true in any way.

I have no real problems with people who feel the need to believe in a god of some sort as long they talk about it as a belief that they hold. But you're trying to pass off your own personal beliefs as if they were absolute facts that everyone must accept.

Just because GOD knows the outcome. Does not mean you do not have free will. Its like I invent a Computer and program it. I know how it will react because I am the one that created the program.

So think of the Universe as a Computer and GOD is the programmer and Abraham, Moses, Jesus, ect are HIS updating programs.

We are multi functional programs. Obviously a lot more complicated and advanced from todays computer programs.

Now,HE already knows what the Computer images(us) will do. Simply because HE is the one that programmed them. Sure it may have multi functions but they are all stimulated/triggered by other factors. The factors dictate the images behaviour.

So yes humans can manipulate(Not remove)the free will of another.
Though not enough so that you are not able to break free through faith.

Therefore there is a purpose for this. That is part of the trial. Go to the thread gay priests. And look for My thread #103. Actually read my posts from #85 and on. You may find them Interesting.

Faith can conquer all negative influences.All you have to do to start is believe.

What leads me to believe all this?The simple answer is Faith. Though it doesn't stop there. It is my faith that makes me search for GOD. And the more I search, the stronger my faith grows, because I see the evidence of HIS Superior Intelligence.

You do not have to accept anything, if you do not hear truth in my words.

Excelsior

uu wrote:

Especially Christianity which evolved from many Roman Pagan beliefs and traditions - the Christmas tree, carols, presents, Sunday Sabbath, so many!

Back this up. Specifically, show me from what credible sources can one build an argument that Christianity evolved from a variety of Roman Pagan beliefs.

On to WiseOnes, the God of the Bible is not the universe. The universe is not God. God created the universe in the Bible. The Bible actually claims that Jesus spoke space and time and all that is in it into creation. God is not his creation, therefore, God is not the universe.

Elsewhere I have heard you argue that Jesus is not God because he is simply the will of God made flesh. Seperate from this being a very incomplete Biblical portrait of Jesus, I wonder how Jesus can't be God when the universe is God, even though the Bible says that the universe is the spoken creativity of Jesus who is the will of God.

Let me lay that out more simply- how can Jesus not be God when the universe is, even though by your own words, the universe is a step further removed from God than Jesus?

To respond to the original poster, cosmological arguments are not new. They are also not convincing. A God who allowed himself to be proven would be nothing more than an idol.

wiseones2cents

Excelsior wrote:

Back this up. Specifically, show me from what credible sources can one build an argument that Christianity evolved from a variety of Roman Pagan beliefs.

On to WiseOnes, the God of the Bible is not the universe. The universe is not God. God created the universe in the Bible. The Bible actually claims that Jesus spoke space and time and all that is in it into creation. God is not his creation, therefore, God is not the universe.

Elsewhere I have heard you argue that Jesus is not God because he is simply the will of God made flesh. Seperate from this being a very incomplete Biblical portrait of Jesus, I wonder how Jesus can't be God when the universe is God, even though the Bible says that the universe is the spoken creativity of Jesus who is the will of God.

Let me lay that out more simply- how can Jesus not be God when the universe is, even though by your own words, the universe is a step further removed from God than Jesus?

To respond to the original poster, cosmological arguments are not new. They are also not convincing. A God who allowed himself to be proven would be nothing more than an idol.

In a sense GOD is everything. His lifeforce is within Everything. Including the entire Universe. I use the example of the Computer being the universe and GOD's programming being everything within. Though God's lifeforce is breathed into all existence.

Let me put it into simple terms. GOD was the brains and Jesus was the builder.
The Bible says GOD used Wisdom to create the universe.

Proverbs 3:19-20 By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations,by understanding he set the heavens in place;by his knowledge the deeps were divided,and the clouds let drop the dew.

Who is this regarding as the RULER of GOD's creation? Jesus.

Revelation 3:14 To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the RULER of God's creation.

Jesus defined as GOD's builder.

Colossians 1:15-18 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

I have no doubt in my mind that Jesus is NOT GOD. If you can prove otherwise through Biblical scripture, I'd like for you to go to that post and debate what I have already presented.

samb

wiseones2cents wrote:

If you can prove otherwise through Biblical scripture,.

How can scripture prove anything?

Dades

wiseones2cents wrote:

Every event that happens, happens for a greater purpose. Just because you do not understand it, does not make it imperfect.

So I am to conclude that we take a world that is clearly not perfect, and claim it is perfect, but that none of us will understand why that is true until we die.

What disturbs me the most is that I think you have actually convinced yourself that that piece of swiss cheese you just served us is true.

Excelsior

And what disturbs me is that he has convinced himself that the Bible authenticates his position. Read the first chapters and you'll see that God is aware that the Cosmos is not perfect.

UU

Excelsior wrote:

Back this up. Specifically, show me from what credible sources can one build an argument that Christianity evolved from a variety of Roman Pagan beliefs.

Excelsior, I thought you out of all people would be witty enough to know of the Pagan roots of Christianity considering you're like a walking A-Z index of Christianity. Lol!

The Roman Empire converted to Christianity when Emporer Constantine changed it on his deathbed. He wanted to suit both Pagans and Christians so he sort of conglomerated both religions. That meant Pagan elements also got mixed in with Chistian tradition. Elements such as the Chrismas pine tree and mistletoe, exchanging of gifts, carols, the Easter bunny and eggs. The fact that All Saints Day, Christmas and Easter fall around the Autumn equinox, midwinter's day, and the Spring equinox, not a coincidence! The reason why Christians celebrate Sabbath on a Sunday instead of the original Jewish Friday-Saturday is so that the Pagans could be facilitated for as they worshiped to the Sun God on Sunday. Read it in the Da Vinci Code and later looked it up on the internet to see if it was true and Dan Brown didn't lie about it. If you want reference look up 'Pagan roots of Christianity' on Google and you'll find a number of various sites.

wiseones2cents

The Atheist wrote:

So I am to conclude that we take a world that is clearly not perfect, and claim it is perfect, but that none of us will understand why that is true until we die.

What disturbs me the most is that I think you have actually convinced yourself that that piece of swiss cheese you just served us is true.

Our world is perfect. Man is imperfect. If you have insight, you do not need to die to understand this. We are the reason Disastors happen. Even though the concept is too hard for you to grasp. Eden was perfect. It was paradise.

Can you prove otherwise?

wiseones2cents

Excelsior wrote:

And what disturbs me is that he has convinced himself that the Bible authenticates his position. Read the first chapters and you'll see that God is aware that the Cosmos is not perfect.

Why dont you submit Scripture verses to back your opinion like I have?

wiseones2cents

wiseones2cents wrote:

Interact with the Universe????He IS the universe. GOD is Everything. When you understand that their is living energy in all matter dead or living you will understand this. When you begin to understand the Complexity of the fabric of existence, you will realize there is a Ultra Supreme Intelligence involved.

The Universe in itself is PERFECT. Nothing has to be improved upon it.
Therefore GOD did make the best model.

Therefore the conclusion is that GOD does Exist.

If the universe is perfect, that implies everything in it is perfect, thus the economic/political system of the US is perfect. Right?

wolfsbane

UU said:

That meant Pagan elements also got mixed in with Chistian tradition.

Have to agree with UU on this. All the Christmas/Easter stuff is not Christian. Some of us Christians use the occasion as an opportunity to bring the gospel, but the 'holy day' is not holy at all. No where in Scripture are we told to celebrate Christ's birth as an annual event; and it is very unlikely that it occurred in December at all - most likely in the Autumn.

The reasons UU gives are sound. The incorporation of Christianity with the State was an unmitigated disaster for the Church. The slide into worldly power and corruption was headlong. Can any honest observer compare the NT picture of the way the church ought to be with the one that later ermerged, and think they are the same? Bride and Whore spring to mind! Not that everyone in the later Church was defiled; and there were those who had separated from the corruption and walked the bloody path of faithfulness to Christ 'outside the camp'.

God kept His true people even in that Babylon and in due time the corruption was challenged from within - the Reformation had begun. Christians since then have largely formed themselves outside the Roman Catholic Church, though some true believers are found in it. But history repeats itself and the Reformation churches themselves have faced corrupting influences and many of them today have little in common with their founders.

Still the Church of Christ continues, gathered in various places and in differing structures. We differ in our knowledge of some lesser doctrines but are united in the fundamentals of the faith. We would be completely wiped out by Satan's wiles and violence, but for Christ Himself being with us and guaranteeing our ultimate victory:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

wiseones2cents

Deleted User wrote:

If the universe is perfect, that implies everything in it is perfect, thus the economic/political system of the US is perfect. Right?

Was the economic/political system made by GOD or imperfect man?

If the economic political system was more in tuned with Bible laws, it would be better off.

We know that the US political system is far from perfect. Read all my posts and you will see why We are Imperfect in a perfect world. It is because GOD gave us free will. Read further and find out why.

larryone

Wow.
It's like you're trying to mix the philosophy of Descartes with Yahwehist ideas.
It's like trying to mix oil and water.
Well not really, but....
wow.

Dades

I know this is going nowhere but I just... can't... drop it

wiseones2cents wrote:

Our world is perfect. Man is imperfect. If you have insight, you do not need to die to understand this.

Repeating yourself does not make it so.

wiseones2cents wrote:

We are the reason Disastors happen. Even though the concept is too hard for you to grasp.

So imperfect humans are responsible for volcanos, earthquakes, asteroids etc. A mate of mine lectures university geology - I'm sure he'll verify that. Or is it that God did it but we are 'responsible' as we left him no choice?

A simple question - if earthquakes are not caused by the rubbing together of tectonic plates - then how are they caused, and why?

wiseones2cents wrote:

Eden was perfect. It was paradise. Can you prove otherwise?

You can no more prove that Eden was paradise than I can prove its a metaphor. However I'm not the one making the assertion in this case - you are.

pbsuxok1znja4r

The Atheist wrote:

So I am to conclude that we take a world that is clearly not perfect, and claim it is perfect, but that none of us will understand why that is true until we die.

You say the world is not perfect? I agree, of course, but I'm wondering, where did you get this idea of perfect?

What would a perfect world be like? Would it be one where only good things happened and only good existed?

When you say perfect are you just talking about your own personal preference for the way the world should be?
Or are you referring to some kind of ideal we are all supposed to be familiar with?

Dades

scouser.tommy wrote:

You say the world is not perfect? I agree, of course, but I'm wondering, where did you get this idea of perfect?

Heh, normally I'd step back from this type of question as it usually leads onto the philosophical merry-go-round of no escape.

Firstly - it was wiseones2cents' idea that our cosmos is perfect.

Perfect is just a word. A notion. The idea that something is without flaws. It is also a subjective thing - my 'perfect day' is going to differ from yours. The world may work perfectly on a mathematical level - but as a creation it is flawed from the perspective of it's inhabitants. And perfection can only be judged from a human point of view - as we have no other.

Of course God is commonly said to be perfect, though he conveniently can't be examined. Examine anything close enough and flaws will be found.

larryone

The Atheist wrote:

Heh, normally I'd step back from this type of question as it usually leads onto the philosophical merry-go-round of no escape.

Firstly - it was wiseones2cents' idea that our cosmos is perfect.

I dont think it was his idea, I think it was Descartes...
And yea, philosophical merry-go-rounds. I reckon those belong in the philosophy forum, not here.

pbsuxok1znja4r

The Atheist wrote:

Heh, normally I'd step back from this type of question as it usually leads onto the philosophical merry-go-round of no escape.

Firstly - it was wiseones2cents' idea that our cosmos is perfect.

Perfect is just a word. A notion. The idea that something is without flaws. It is also a subjective thing - my 'perfect day' is going to differ from yours. The world may work perfectly on a mathematical level - but as a creation it is flawed from the perspective of it's inhabitants. And perfection can only be judged from a human point of view - as we have no other.

Of course God is commonly said to be perfect, though he conveniently can't be examined. Examine anything close enough and flaws will be found.

Yes, I agree there, but you haven't answered my question, you wily devil, you. :v:

When you say "the world is not perfect", I assume you are referring to all the bad things that happen in the world/universe, is that correct?

Yes, precisely, "perfect" is an idea, a notion, or an ideal. We have no actual tangible evidence of anything "perfect", i.e. without any flaws, without any "bad" aspects to it; supreme/infinite "good"-ness, would you agree with that?

larryone

...or is the universe a perfect system designed to fully define the difference between what is good and bad, what is right and wrong, light and dark, etc...? Can we define God as being synonymous with this universe, this existance? Is God therefore a perfect existance? If so are we all then part of God, and parts of the perfect universe that is God???

*larryone twiddles his existing thumbs

BrianCalgary

Perfection.

God did create a perfect world. Sin has caused it to decay. The universe and everything in it is running down. Science will attest to that.

God has another perfect world within our grasp, it is called heaven. Revelation tells us that there will be a new heaven (the skies) and Earth ruled over by Himself. That place will be perfection.

Until that time when those that have accepted Christ arrive there, we have to put up with our own imperfections.

My perfect day would be a Man U win coupled with a Chelsea loss and both my kids teams winning and the opportunity to preach the gospel. Not necessarily in that order.

amigaboy

BrianCalgary wrote:

Perfection.

God did create a perfect world. Sin has caused it to decay. The universe and everything in it is running down. Science will attest to that.

God has another perfect world within our grasp, it is called heaven. Revelation tells us that there will be a new heaven (the skies) and Earth ruled over by Himself. That place will be perfection.

Until that time when those that have accepted Christ arrive there, we have to put up with our own imperfections.

My perfect day would be a Man U win coupled with a Chelsea loss and both my kids teams winning and the opportunity to preach the gospel. Not necessarily in that order.

You are clearly deluded with fantasy.

The fact that you think Man U have a hope against Chelsea if proof of this.

UU

If you look at a new born baby, it is a pure spirit and there aren't any flaws with it. The child is ignorant as it doesn't know what right and wrong are. All it knows is what its body tells it like to cry for food, etc. When it develops and grows, it starts learning what good and bad is and it is the parents' / guardians' role to show the acceptable patterns of behaviour by punishing wrongdoings and praising virtuous acts. Therefor, new born babies represent perfection but maturity can wilten this.

Many of my beliefs are centred around the Buddhist tradition. I believe that a perfect world is when one encounters full enlightenment. That normally happens when one builds up enough karma (positive energy) over a number of different lives before reaching Nirvana, the spiritual world, to experience infinite enlightenment. Although I think there isn't such a thing as perfection in this world, well very little anyway! I think the role of beings is to lead good lives for the afterlife. Although, certain prophets I believe reached full enlightenment in this world, namely the Buddha and Jesus Christ. I'm convinced Mother Theresa reached a high level of enlightenment too.

Excelsior

I really must suffer the most fundamentalist blind faith since I support Man City.

FreeAnd..

Does God exist? Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't.

JC 2K3

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3593866248238036452

Dades

BrianCalgary wrote:

God did create a perfect world.

A perfect world that kills it's inhabitants?
We're talking nature here - not people.

BrianCalgary

Sentence two of my post said that sin caused the world to be imperfect. God created it perfect, death began once man sinned. Man made it imperfect through the one act of rebellion against God.

OOOh, Man City? We actually have one here in Calgary, sorry two. I have met both. I will remember you in my prayers.

robindch

> sin caused the world to be imperfect. God created it perfect,
> death began once man sinned. Man made it imperfect through
> the one act of rebellion against God.

Um, under your belief system, isn't god supposed to have "created" human beings too? So doesn't that mean that god, by creating sinners, didn't actually create a perfect world (whatever that is)?

<confused>

Excelsior

DA Carson is coming to Dublin in January Robin. Maybe you should track him down and ask him to explain this asymmetric causation idea he has...