M50 upgrade is needed now

darkman2

Hi, i was just wondering if anyone knows what status the m50 upgrade is at. I checked the NRA website and they say its at tendering, yet they have assigned a completion date for 2007 of phase 1! Thats roughly one year construction at this stage. I did drive on it recently and there appeared to be cutting of hedges at the woefully designed mad cow interchange. Is this initial work? The M50 on a lane by lane basis is the busiest motorway now in Europe, it is an absolute joke having only two lanes at this stage and traffic lights at the roundabouts! Our planners have decided we want a sunbelt type US city development (without the sun!). If thats the case we need good roads. Mind you the new M4 is a beautiful stretch of road but it feeds into this cart track along with the other interurban routes in a 'spokes on a wheel' type fashion. It really is a sad indictment of the way we do things:mad:

johnnyrotten

When it starts the M50 upgrade will be a disaster with lane closures and reduced speed limits.
I made an enquiry recently about the upgrading of the M50/M1 junction. The works on the DPT (Dublin Port Tunnel) has being ongoing for over 4 years now, but in that 4 years there has been no works carried out on the M50/M1 junction.
Picture the scene:
All Port traffic will have to Use the M50 > M1 > DPT. So trucks will drive to end of M50 to be met by a signalled controlled roundabout with the possibility of two sets of RED:mad: lights.
Can you imagine the traffic tailbacks with all these trucks waiting for green.
This junction should have been upgraded in the last 4 years of DPT tunnel works to coincide with the opening of the DPT in April/May 2006.
But no, the junction uprade is part of the M50 upgrade scheme.
MAJOR TRAFFIC CHAOS AHEAD FOLKS:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

darkman2

I noticed that aswell. A third lane is being put in on the M1 between the DPT and the M50. But its useless because of the interchange you mention. (And its only northbound) what fool came up with that idea! And wait until you see the gantries for the DPT! Theyve orderd twenty of them! Bet there as usless as the ones on the SEM. This is why im eager to know, when are they getting on with the upgrade?

johnnyrotten

What are the gantries for?

Mailman

FF/PD have shot themselves in the foot here.
Start the upgrades to the M50 before the election and get voter backlash at the ballot box.
Leave the upgrades until after the election and get voter backlash.

That is provided the rivals are clever enough to point it out to the public.

Upgrading the M50 should have been done back in 2002 after the election.

I know the N3 interchange on the M50 will be starting at the end of 2006 so that is going to leave commuters from a number of constituencies fuming. They might drop a seat but not in Dublin West as it is a three seater and their vote won't collapse enough to lose their seat there.

darkman2

Their for the M50 and M1 approaches to the tunnel.

darkman2

Mailman wrote:

FF/PD have shot themselves in the foot here.
Start the upgrades to the M50 before the election and get voter backlash at the ballot box.
Leave the upgrades until after the election and get voter backlash.

That is provided the rivals are clever enough to point it out to the public.

Upgrading the M50 should have been done back in 2002 after the election.

I know the N3 interchange on the M50 will be starting at the end of 2006 so that is going to leave commuters from a number of constituencies fuming. They might drop a seat but not in Dublin West as it is a three seater and their vote won't collapse enough to lose their seat there.

Either way it has to be done and quickly or we are facing REAL gridlock on the M50. It will just stop one day.

johnnyrotten

darkman2 wrote:

Their for the M50 and M1 approaches to the tunnel.

Hey Darkman2, what do you mean here?

Guy:Incognito

Mailman wrote:

Upgrading the M50 should have been done back in 2002 after the election.
.

It should have been done when they were buildiing the poxy thing in the first place. A massive road with four lanes in each direction from the start would have been ideal.

johnnyrotten

The main problem on the M50 is not the Toll Bridge or lanes, its the junctions. You should not have to stop!

darkman2

johnnyrotten wrote:

Hey Darkman2, what do you mean here?

You know the gantry direction signs (overheads) on the M50 approaching the M1? Theyve ordered twenty more of them for the M1 approaches to the airport and DPT. And for the M50. Presumably to tell ppl the tunnel actually exists and alert truck drivers to the fact some trucks wont actually fit in the tunnel!

darkman2

Stekelly wrote:

It should have been done when they were buildiing the poxy thing in the first place. A massive road with four lanes in each direction from the start would have been ideal.

I think its important to remember the road was built at the hieght of corruption in west Dublin so it really for me is not a supprise:mad:

johnnyrotten

Yeah, I've seen them. They were'nt Cheap!

darkman2

johnnyrotten wrote:

Yeah, I've seen them. They were'nt Cheap!

Yep and only in ireland would they put them up only to have them taken down again for the M50 upgrade!

Victor

The DPT will have variable speed limits to regulate the amount of vehicles in the tunnel at any given time. This means doing overhead gantries on the approaches and in the tunnel. At the southern end, the toll plaza itself can be used to regulate teh northbound flow.

Maskhadov

the worst part of it all is that they are only upgrading it by one measily lane. All that headache for one extra lane. They need at LEAST two. A single lane will make little difference.

When they built the M50 there was little developement around it. Instead of having a green band of 30 meters either side they let development in so there is absolutely no room for expansion.

The interchanges are a disgrace and so too is the two bridges beside the toll plaza. The bridges should have three lanes either way when they were building them. There are far too many interchanges as well.

That motorway is an abolute diaster from start to finish. You couldnt have designed it any worse if you were drunk and really trying to make a mess.

darkman2

Maskhadov wrote:

the worst part of it all is that they are only upgrading it by one measily lane. All that headache for one extra lane. They need at LEAST two. A single lane will make little difference.

When they built the M50 there was little developement around it. Instead of having a green band of 30 meters either side they let development in so there is absolutely no room for expansion.

The interchanges are a disgrace and so too is the two bridges beside the toll plaza. The bridges should have three lanes either way when they were building them. There are far too many interchanges as well.

That motorway is an abolute diaster from start to finish. You couldnt have designed it any worse if you were drunk and really trying to make a mess.

Actually, technically the upgrade is 4 - 5 lanes each way due to 'weaving lanes' between the interchanges which will be made mostly free flowing. My question is when are they getting on with it?

morlan

2007 - M50 Upgrade (Phase 1)
2010 - M50 Upgrade (Phase 2)


SCHEME DESCRIPTION – Route
The M50 mainline will be upgraded to dual 3-lane motorway standards from the M1Motorway junction to the junction at Sandyford. In addition, auxiliary-weaving lanes will be provided between successive junctions from the M1 junction, right through to the Scholarstown junction, to facilitate safer merging on and off the M50 between these junctions. Ten junctions from the M1 to Sandyford junction will be upgraded to facilitate access across, and on and off the upgraded motorway. Where the modification of the existing junction layouts would not provide adequate capacity to satisfy demand, reconfiguration to partial free/free flow interchanges is proposed.

Maskhadov

I forgot about the weaving lanes darkman2. But you cant help but feel disapointed with this whole M-50. A weaving lane is not as good as a ordinary lane since it only lasts for a bit for you have to move out of it.

The interchanges will help of course but I think we will be locked in traffic for the next part of a decade along the M-50.

darkman2

morlan wrote:

2007 - M50 Upgrade (Phase 1)
2010 - M50 Upgrade (Phase 2)


SCHEME DESCRIPTION – Route
The M50 mainline will be upgraded to dual 3-lane motorway standards from the M1Motorway junction to the junction at Sandyford. In addition, auxiliary-weaving lanes will be provided between successive junctions from the M1 junction, right through to the Scholarstown junction, to facilitate safer merging on and off the M50 between these junctions. Ten junctions from the M1 to Sandyford junction will be upgraded to facilitate access across, and on and off the upgraded motorway. Where the modification of the existing junction layouts would not provide adequate capacity to satisfy demand, reconfiguration to partial free/free flow interchanges is proposed.

Thanks for that Morlan, however I serously doubt their going to complete the first phase in a year. This is yet another cock up, an idictment of the way we do things in this country. We will probrably never see work start before the next election and after that could you imagine the Greens being partners. There will be no M50 upgrade then!:mad:

mackerski

Maskhadov wrote:

I forgot about the weaving lanes darkman2. But you cant help but feel disapointed with this whole M-50. A weaving lane is not as good as a ordinary lane since it only lasts for a bit for you have to move out of it.

What you've just decribed is an acceleration lane. A Weaving Lane is like an acceleration lane that doesn't end, but continues until the next exit, where it becomes the (or a) exit lane. As such, it gives the effect of a fourth (in this instance) lane, albeit one that you have to leave eventually unless you want to leave at the next exit.

Dermot

darkman2

I just drove past the portals of the port tunnel earlier and the gantries are going up on the M1. Not long till opening now one suspects. Another few months to go. Also third lane being added to the northbound M1 as from the tunnel to the M50.

spacetweek

darkman2 wrote:

Thanks for that Morlan, however I serously doubt their going to complete the first phase in a year. This is yet another cock up, an idictment of the way we do things in this country. We will probrably never see work start before the next election and after that could you imagine the Greens being partners. There will be no M50 upgrade then!:mad:

You'll get angrier if you read this: it turns out the M50 Phase 1 was supposed to start in 2005. What the hell happened? I can't think of any reason for the delay. Also check out the other schemes that were supposed to start this year, like the M3 and N25 Waterford BP. I know those 2 haven't started because they're waiting for the outcome of the Carrickmines case from the High Court, but there's no excuse for the M50.

Uuuh Patsy

AFAIK Phase 1 was the addition of safety barriers along the median?

spacetweek

Uuuh Patsy wrote:

AFAIK Phase 1 was the addition of safety barriers along the median?

Pretty sure that wasn't a phase. Phase 1 is N4-N7, Phase 2 is M1-N4 and Phase 3 is the rest.

DubTony

Uuuh Patsy wrote:

AFAIK Phase 1 was the addition of safety barriers along the median?

Most of those barriers will have to come back up as the median, or part of it, will be used as lane 3 for most of the M50.

That's one of those reality being stranger than fiction things.

morlan

There is one small stetch on the M50 which has 4 lanes. Two exit lanes to Sandyford maybe? not sure. but it gives you a brief taste of what a proper motorway should be!

Maskhadov

There was a good point made on the BBC the other week when the M25 opened with the expanded 8 odd lanes. The said that no matter how wide the motorway is , it just fills up with cars. We could have 4 or 5 lanes and we probably would be in the same mess. I just hope this is realised and people focusing on public transport.

Blaster99

Roads are built for cars to use them so what's the problem? You can take that "logic" to public transport as well. Oh my God the DART carriages are full, let's not invest in public transport any more.

Anyways, the M50 needs serious work that's for sure. I don't even know why any major roads are built as 2-lane. They should be be 3-lane within 100 miles of Dublin or some such. The M50 should be 4-lane to create a bit of room for expansion instead of this endless catchup situation.

Maskhadov

Im not saying to stop building roads. We need a intercity motorway network that connects all the major cities in Ireland. We also need a M50 which has 3 or 4 lanes either way with a new outer oribtal bypass.

My point is that motorways arent the solution to our transports needs. Unless we have a decent rail service nationwide the motorways will just turn into car parks

darkman2

I think having huge roads is more of a status symbol then a practical one:)

bryanw

Maskhadov wrote:

There was a good point made on the BBC the other week when the M25 opened with the expanded 8 odd lanes. The said that no matter how wide the motorway is , it just fills up with cars. We could have 4 or 5 lanes and we probably would be in the same mess. I just hope this is realised and people focusing on public transport.

There was an article on that situation with regards to the M50 upgrade, in the Irish Independent a while ago.

Irish Independent wrote:

M50 jams to worsen despite big upgrade
CHRONIC gridlock will continue and worsen on the notorious M50 even after a €810m upgrade approved by Bord Pleanala is completed in 2008, it was learned yesterday.

Official figures obtained by the Irish Independent reveal that the key pinchpoint stretch between the Red Cow Roundabout N7/M50 and N3/Blanchardstown junctions will have a capacity of just 7,800 cars in each direction on the new three-lane motorway.

Based on these Dublin Transportation Office figures, traffic experts engaged by the National Roads Authority are predicting that this capacity will be exceeded when the upgraded M50 opens in 2008.

This means that - despite the removal of the cash-in-the-bucket toll at the West Link bridge and its replacement with freeflow electronic tolling, an extra lane in each direction and 10 freeflow interchanges - traffic jams will worsen because of spiralling car and truck numbers.

Traffic forecasts also indicate that the upgraded road will be carrying over 200,000 vehicles a day (it now carries 100,000), even though its congestion reference flow (the point at which the road starts to jam) will be only 187,500 vehicles.

Motorists also face a likely new toll on the M50 in addition to the West Link toll in a attempt to stop the newly improved road from clogging up.

In its ruling yesterday, An Bord Pleanala ordered that "specific traffic demand measures" on the M50 must be published by the roads authorities within three years of the upgrade being completed.

The NRA has already indicated that a new toll was one possible way to manage traffic volumes on the new M50.

The Dublin Transportation Office said yesterday they had indicated it was vital that traffic was carefully managed to ensure that the upgraded M50 did not exceed its capacity.

The DTO said the capacity problems on the M50 would only be solved when all of the key elements of its Platform for Change 2016 were implemented. These included a metro and better rail and bus services and infrastructure in the region.

Transport Minister Martin Cullen welcomed the decision, saying that while the upgrade would not solve all traffic problems on the M50, it would deliver real benefits to road users. Mr Cullen said the extra lane in each direction would enable the road to cope better with traffic.

The minister has also asked the NRA to carry out a feasibility study into a €1bn outer orbital route outside the M50.

But Owen Keegan, Dublin's Director of Traffic, has warned that the current delays on the M50 are going to worsen during the upgrade works.

The board said the development would not have significant adverse effects on the environment and would not be contrary to the proper planning and development of the area.

The Government has already admitted that the upgrade will not solve traffic congestion on the motorway.....

Treacy Hogan
Environment Correspondent
(Read More) LINK: http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1389692&issue_id=12424

I also think with regards to tolls, is that methods used in this country are very inadequate. They put toll plazas on the motorway itself therefore all the traffic has to stop...really not such a good idea on the M50 today. I think there should be a "pay by distance" method adopted, so when you enter the motorway you get a ticket and then hand it in when you leave. You pay on the exits, not on the motorway. This will also ditribute traffic build-up instead of being all at the same point.

It works well in other countries (such as France) even though it's expensive - it's worth it. In France (and also Spain) there are some tolls which are the same type as here - stop on the road and pay, but with little bottlenecks, probably because there is less traffic (unlike the M50). I think it might even be a good idea to get rid of tolls around major cities altogether, because its inevitable that traffic will build up anyway, so toll outside the cities to make your money.

dts

Why not just toll when you want to get into the city like London. That way it would be all split up and traffic outside of the city could continue to flow round the so called Dublin bypass:D

corktina

whilst on the subject of the m50, anyone want to hazzard a guess what the situation at the red cow will be when the Naas road improvement is finished?

wont all the traffic that used to be snarled up at the many bottlenecks from Naas inward all be piled up at the red cow roundabout unable to get on to the M50?......it will probably be OK outbound...

mysterious

:mad:

corktina wrote:

whilst on the subject of the m50, anyone want to hazzard a guess what the situation at the red cow will be when the Naas road improvement is finished?

wont all the traffic that used to be snarled up at the many bottlenecks from Naas inward all be piled up at the red cow roundabout unable to get on to the M50?......it will probably be OK outbound...

It will be a disaster! though the new flyover will be a relief for the luas commuters and locals around monastery road and Clondalkin surroundings but as you said Cortina when the new upgrades are up and ready you'll have 70mph hour traffic trunndling into the Redcow and Newlands cross which is to get no improvements..

Yet some gubsh!te comes up with a bus lane plan from Newlands to the Redcow with a service road..........:mad: OK it wil be expensive but why can't they widen the busiest stretch of road to 8 lanes ( newlands to Redcow)
there is land on the outbound lanes and the old broken up road beside the citybound lanes???

The N4 gets a free flow interchange N7 Nill

Grade separte interchange at Newcastle road ( less of a priorthy) N7 nill

Its going to be hell:rolleyes:

murphaph

corktina wrote:

whilst on the subject of the m50, anyone want to hazzard a guess what the situation at the red cow will be when the Naas road improvement is finished?

wont all the traffic that used to be snarled up at the many bottlenecks from Naas inward all be piled up at the red cow roundabout unable to get on to the M50?......it will probably be OK outbound...

Don't worry about it CorkTina-the pile up of traffic will actually be at Newland's Cross cos that's still gonna be at grade after the N7 improvements

corktina

oh not too worried, i only use that road on Friday mornings....outbound....:)

dr zoidberg

darkman2 wrote:

I think having huge roads is more of a status symbol then a practical one:)

This is more a case of having adequate than huge roads. Although the M50 won't even be so when its upgrade is finished.

dts wrote:

Why not just toll when you want to get into the city like London. That way it would be all split up and traffic outside of the city could continue to flow round the so called Dublin bypass

Well this only works in London because they have a proper public transport network. Our public transport is barely getting by as it is without a massive influx of new users. If Transport 21 ever gets done, and efficient, integrated public transport is in place, then I would have no problem with a congestion charge being introduced.

D'Peoples Voice

What DATE in Janaury?

Present Position
Contract 1 - N4 to Ballymount
December 05 Contractor appointed - Work to commence Jan 06
Contract duration 2 years.

http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=22&deptid=12&dpageid=355

spacetweek

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

What DATE in Janaury?
http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=22&deptid=12&dpageid=355

Good question. The Nra have this project listed[<-link] as having started in 2005. It's not exactly "started in 2005" if it's still hasn't started.

CrowdedHouse

This morning (about 8:15am) I drove from Newlands Cross to the M50 toll bridge without having to stop or even slow to a crawl,is this unusual ?

Was kind of surprised myself

johnnyrotten

Yes

Victor

spacetweek wrote:

Good question. The Nra have this project listed[<-link] as having started in 2005. It's not exactly "started in 2005" if it's still hasn't started.

http://www.nra.ie/News/DownloadableDocumentation/file,1318,en.PDF

Just because you haven't seen anything doesn't mean nothing is happening.

mysterious

This government is the sharpest pain in the arse, yet most people are fooled to see the art of the T21

1. Made a mess with the M50
2. It has taken nearly 30 years to build the thing and 40 years planning the friggin thing.
3. Its not wide enough nor will it meet demands when the upgrade is up.
4. I have noticed that the road is not up to motorway standard and has differnent speed limits , ( its embarressing)
5. when the upgrade is completed the lane width is to be reduced from 3.5 metre ( typical lane width of any road including motorway) to 3.0 metres anyone hear of this?
6. Red cow is still going to be the Mad cow , what waste of money when they can't even get the name right.
7. Oh god the luas is to get busier with extensions to Citywest means more trams over the Mad cow.
8. More tolls
9. 6,000 more trucks or so where are they going to fit
10. we are going to choke.:eek:


The salution they come up with is an extra lane with partial free flowing junctions that is a total disaster waiting to happen.:rolleyes:
The most Fuked up one is the Red cow and they can't fix it :mad:

Maskhadov

Victor wrote:

http://www.nra.ie/News/DownloadableDocumentation/file,1318,en.PDF

Just because you haven't seen anything doesn't mean nothing is happening.

Did all those in red actually start ?

murphaph

mysterious wrote:

This government..has taken nearly 30 years to build the [M50] and 40 years planning the friggin thing.

Erm, I know the FF/PD show has been running a long time, but not as long as The Mousetrap mysterious!

The M50 is a collective fcuk up across the board.

spacetweek

mysterious wrote:

2. It has taken nearly 30 years to build the thing and 40 years planning the friggin thing.

20 of which were the 70s and 80s, a time when the country was f**ked.

mysterious wrote:

3. Its not wide enough nor will it meet demands when the upgrade is up.

8 lanes, how wide do you want it? Experience in other countries shows that you can widen a motorway infinitely and it just keeps filling. What we need is to bring the M50 up to international standards (better junctions, freeflow toll etc.) and then have a moratorium on destructive further expansion.

mysterious wrote:

4. I have noticed that the road is not up to motorway standard and has differnent speed limits , ( its embarressing)

Different speed limits are found in other countries and there is nothing unusual and certainly nothing embarrassing about them. :rolleyes:

mysterious wrote:

7. Oh god the luas is to get busier with extensions to Citywest means more trams over the Mad cow.

That won't be noticeable.

mysterious wrote:

8. More tolls

Eh? Where?

mysterious wrote:

9. 6,000 more trucks or so where are they going to fit

With traffic rising at about 5-10k extra vehicles a year (or whatever) the extra trucks are irrelevant. Our priority is to remove them from the centre of the city. The M50 can do with them as it pleases.