Injustice

LegacyUser

Back in 1998, my uncle was walking home from his local pub, and 2 16 year old scumbags asked him for a cigarette which he refused, they then kicked him to death, and stamped on his head, causing severe damage, leaving footprints on his skull, and left him lying there. He died in hospital a few days later.
They were caught and arrested a few months later, and they admitted the crime. Eventually the case made it to court, and after lengthly proceedings it was thrown out on some technicality, something to do with them being underage when they admitted, and they starting to claim police brutality etc.
My family was distraught, they walked out of the court screaming and giving the finger to the cameras, the papers the following sunday said it was a huge miscarriage and that they got away with murder.
Anyway - how would you feel in my situation? That these scumbags can kill a member of your family, get caught by the police, only to be let free to live the rest of their lives. Would you consider revenge?
The whole thing really made me lose respect for the system and the world in general. In fairness the garda did all they could to get them put away but they could only do so much.
Sometimes I think about killing both of them myself, or doing something bad to them. I'm not religious so I don't think they'll ever pay for this, I don't believe there is a god who will judge them some day. How am I supposed to feel? What would you do?

Nevyn

Volience is never advocated here in PI and this thread will not an execption.
Anyone doing so will be banned.

nowhereman This is an awful thing to have to go trough. I would suggest you I get some help and support.

http://www.victimsupport.ie/policies.html

and maybe some grief couselling, I would hate to think that the actions of
these people would rob you of your life due this eating at you .

LegacyUser

what can a counsellor say? That I have to learn to live with the fact that known murderers can walk the streets having killed a member of my family because of the ludicris system of justice we have? yeah that will really help. I note the lack of replies, shows you how hopeless the situation is.

Tiriel

what those guys did was absolutely horrible, and it must have been heart-breaking watching them walk out of court free. However, your uncle would not like to see you ending up in prison for what they did.. and unfortunately that is exactly what would happen if you were to take the law into your own hands.

Don't lower yourself to their level, be the better person. It definitely isn't easy, but you have to have your own morals.. let them deal with the consequences of their own actions.. as they have to have consciences.

Sorry for your loss, hope that you will be ok

chern0byl

Cork_girl wrote:

as they have to have consciences.

Dont be so naive girl. There are some real bad bastards in this world and these are probably 2 of them.

OP: Sorry about your loss and the injustice your family suffered.

Laguna

Jesus, I'm terribly upset to hear that nowhereman and you're right, the bastards who killed your uncle will go unpunished, that's the way of the world, bad things happen to good people and the bastards of the world go unpunished. I know how you feel with your inner rage, wanting to get them back for what they did, unfortunately you'd be the one spending time in jail paying the ultimate price for revenge (even if it is just).

Tiriel

yeah fair enough, might sound naive, but it's not something that the op can alter now. What has been done is done. Those guys deserve punishment, and have played the system. I just believe in what goes around comes around.

BuffyBot

I'm sorry if I'm sounding insensitive here, but do you ever think it might be your own attitude to this that is making you feel this bad?

The world is imperfect. No one will deny that. What happened was a terrible thing, and the outcome may not be really have been fair. However it is in the past. You have to move on, because by not doing so you're just messing yourself up.

I guess you have to ask yourself is holding on to years of anger and bitterness what your uncle really would want you to do? Would he want these two people to hold such a controlling power over your life? Or would he want you to move on, and get on with your own life? He isn't around to live his, so why stop living yours as well?

Grief counselling isn't as simplistic as you make out, and it might be worth looking into. But with the attitude you seem to have, you're never going to give yourself the chance to get over this - and until then, you are your own biggest problem.

Atrocity

Buffybot wrote:

I guess you have to ask yourself is holding on to years of anger and bitterness what your uncle really would want you to do? Would he want these two people to hold such a controlling power over your life? Or would he want you to move on, and get on with your own life? He isn't around to live his, so why stop living yours as well?

True, your uncle wouldn't have wanted you to stoop to their level

PlayaFlow

i dont know man ,ME in the OP's situation would probably seek revenge of some sort to fill up the void in my heart . Im not saying that it would be the right thing to do - which it would be, were it not for u going to jail- but it would be a short term solution and i would feel better .

LegacyUser

to be honest it doesn't really affect my life in any way. I just feel bad sometimes that I've never done anything about it, and am just living my life as if it never happened. Those two don't give a flying f**k about us or my uncle or my grandfather who died during the case or my poor grandmother who has to live with it or anyone.
I mean I am not a violent person but sometimes I fantasize about killing both of them, and if I did have to do the time, it'd be worth it, at least they wont get away with it. I know their names too, all over the papers back when it was in court.

boardy

I think the reason for the lack of replies is because of the complicated nature of your question? The option in your eyes is either revenge or to do nothing?

People deal with grief in various ways. Let me ask you a question. Because of the injustice that you and your family have suffered, have you ever considered getting into the legal profession or becoming a Garda. Imagine the sense of empowerment that you would have being a member of law enforcement. This doesn't mean that you will have license to go around and inflict punishment on the many scumbags that we seem to have in our society. But it would allow you the opportunity to protect the decent law abiding members of your community.

Your feelings of retribution are totally understandable, but if you act with violence you will drag yourself down to their level, and your family may have to endure more suffering as a consequence.

Why not consider contacting a victim's support group like the one mentioned by Thaedydal. They will certainly relate to how you feel and will be able to help through this difficult period of your life.

Airblazer

Justice can be served but it means going outside the law to do this. Society has failed people on the justice front and people no longer beieve in the law.
The whole idea that God will punish people for their deeds is complete garbage.
Once we die that's it..it's all over..I believe that we live on in by the legacy we leave behind or children that we bring into this world..I mean if we were all God's children as the church says would he really stand there and watch as we brutally murder and persecute each other.Would any parent stand by and watch as their children are harmed? Not a chance in hell.
These thugs will continue to live and party away secure in the knowledge that they've gotten away with this brutal murder. The only justice they'll ever get will be if some other scumbag sorts them out or they're finally jailed for another crime.
What Boardy has said could be good for you...It would give you a sense of belief if you were able to help other people.not just be being a Garda but maybe a prosecuting lawyer or something similiar..You could also use this to push you into Politics whereby you'd be at the forefront of making changes in the laws etc to help people and punish the scum etc...

hullaballoo

I'm not sure if this will make you feel better, but I'm a law student, and I can tell you that there are many, many, many parts of the legal system that are a farce. Ugh, it makes me sick.

MadMoss

boardy wrote:

People deal with grief in various ways. Let me ask you a question. Because of the injustice that you and your family have suffered, have you ever considered getting into the legal profession or becoming a Garda. Imagine the sense of empowerment that you would have being a member of law enforcement. This doesn't mean that you will have license to go around and inflict punishment on the many scumbags that we seem to have in our society. But it would allow you the opportunity to protect the decent law abiding members of your community.

Your feelings of retribution are totally understandable, but if you act with violence you will drag yourself down to their level, and your family may have to endure more suffering as a consequence.

Why not consider contacting a victim's support group like the one mentioned by Thaedydal. They will certainly relate to how you feel and will be able to help through this difficult period of your life.

Couldn't have put it better. Try to put the idea of revenge to back of your mind, it will only do you harm.

The Sweeper

I'm going to be savage here.

OP, your problem is your own guilt about not doing anything to avenge your uncle's death. Deal with your own guilt and move on.

If it was actual blind grief you wouldn't be still wondering about it seven years later, you'd have done something stupid and ill-advised already and be regretting it in the lock-up.

Sangre

Campaign for a change to the justice system that allowed this miscarriage to happen

Atrocity

hullaballoo wrote:

I'm not sure if this will make you feel better, but I'm a law student, and I can tell you that there are many, many, many parts of the legal system that are a farce. Ugh, it makes me sick.

Hi, fellow law student it is a farce isn't it? Sickening.

OP, I understand your rage. To empathise with you and your situation, I know if the same thing happened to me I would want to get a few of my friends together to seek some kind of justice.

I am fully aware that promoting or incitement to violence here is strictly forbidden. However, to be completely honest, yes, I would want to make them bastards pay for what they did.

Hopefully, I wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it, because I am better than that.. and i do realise that doing something like that would make me as bad as the original perpetrator.

It should help you to know that you are having quite normal feelings. I think everyone would want to see revenge dished out, but I hope that everybody would come to their senses in the situation to realise that this is not, and never will be, the answer. It must be tough for you to think about the way everything turned out. I hope for your sake, you can banish these unhealthy thoughts and try to get on with your life. Those bastards are free, they got off scot free. Nevertheless, you have to go on with you and your families' lives. A day will come when they have to answer for what they did. I'm not religious, but I do believe that they will pay for their horrific crime.

Good luck to you.

b3t4

Sangre wrote:

Campaign for a change to the justice system that allowed this miscarriage to happen

What he said.

Also, if someone is capable of doing what they did you can be sure that they will end up in prison at some stage. They are scum and they will never be anything more than that after such an act. Their life will most likely be watched closely by the garda who will arrest them for near to nothing.

Live your life and try not to get stuck in the past. If you choose not to, they will have taken your uncle's life and yours.

A.

Fysh

Sangre wrote:

Campaign for a change to the justice system that allowed this miscarriage to happen

Other than grief counselling, this is the best advice I've seen in this thread.

It's a rough thing to deal with and it would obviously have an extremely negative impact on your world view - but justice and revenge are rarely the same thing, and there's a worrying trend of claiming that justice will be served by beating seven hells out of these guys. That's not justice. That's revenge, and you'll be no better than the attackers if you're thinking that way.

Stop thinking about how hopeless things are and how "society has failed people on the justice front" and, if you really believe that justice was not served in this case; campaign for a change in the law. Find out more about why the case got thrown out and start some sort of group to try and stop this happening in future. Being a part of something like that will help you overcome the feelings of powerlessness that you seem to be grappling with.

swingking

OP my best advice is to look at cases around where the scumbags do get cought and they do get thrown away for a long time. It is true that the justice system fails people but it also rewards victims as well. If you take this into account, at least everyone isn't abandoned by the justice system.

~Leanne~

I know how you feel! My cousin was shot by her ex bf 10 years ago and he got 4 YEARS! He is now living his life normally as nothing happened! Justice system in this country is crap!

Heathen

nowhereman - first off im really sorry to hear about this, it makes me sick to here someone walking away with it.. the way i see it.. "minor shminor" they knew what they were doing no matter what age they were.. this countrys legal system is a JOKE!! I, my family and friends have all been on the recieving end of criminal activity over the years in some small cases and in one or two large ones.. but something i have learned from living in this country for 27 years is that the law here is a load of b****x.. i have seen people ransack my grandmothers house and completely shatter her after the death of my grandad.. and these people are walking among us free as a bird.. i have been beaten to a pulp.. and the people that did it are freed hours later.. there is a few serious thing too whitch i wont go into as they are sensitive,.. but what i have learned is that the law here is not setup to protect the victim it is setup to protect the criminal.. and because of this i can see this country getting worse over the next 10 years with gangs and gang related crime.. just look how much it has grown in the last 5 years for example.. it wont be long till were in a state of lawlessness...

the fact that nothing was done about your uncle's killing is the reason that you feel like it should be taken care of by yo.. personal justice kinda.. and that is only natural.. but look at it this was.. as much as you want to beat these guys.. your family has already lost your uncle.. then your grandad.. they cant affoud to loose you to a prison sentance too, it would destroy the rest of your family.. and also dig up the past for family members that have tryed to put it behind them to try get on with their lives.. not being disrespctfull but some people need to put it behind them in order to move on.

i can 100% understand your reason for wanting to get "revenge" i have been in this situation before and probably will be again in my life.. but i have had people sit me down and explain not what good can come out of it, but what way my actions ca make the situation worse for the people i love...
sorry for the long rant..

markpb

Standard 'I am not a lawyer' disclaimer aside, isn't is possible to take them back to court as a civil case instead of a judicial case? It probably won't get you anywhere because they are/were minors but the burden of evidence needed for a civil case is, I think, less than a judicial case. Might be worth looking into but like the others said, you're probably better of either trying to improve the system or making the most of your life. You have my sympathies either way :-(

LegacyUser

Man, I used to think there was law & order in this country
but now I doubtful, from events like this and comparitively trivial things which would have happened to me myself.
Ive become much wary when walking around, you know if law won't protect me I have to protect myself by watching out for trouble. Im not living in fear not quite, but I theres are a lot of people who do, like older and vulnerable people etc.

If you start campaign for fair justice in this country, I think it would have a lot of support.

Have a look to how its done it other countries too. The instict is to have harsher and quicker laws of course, but there may be other solutions too.

Angels

Nowhereman i feel terrible for you & your family. This is just typical though these days of our judicial system.

There is different laws for different people here like these scumbags you mentioned. They will do it again sur they got away with it.

In saying this you & your family need closure too on it.

I cant understand that the case was thrown out. I'd say well done to the gards for hammering them in custody the probably deserved it.

I hope you will find closure soon.

Dragan

Sangre wrote:

Campaign for a change to the justice system that allowed this miscarriage to happen

Excellent advice.

Also, sure they may have walked, but a campaign like this would always remind people as to what had happened and can maybe ensure that it would draw some sort of positive aspect out of your families pain.

Maybe by having gone through this , your family will be able to ensure it never happens again.

Khannie

OP: I'd get revenge of some sort. You don't have to be violent. I just wouldn't stand for that. I'm (admitedly) over protective of my family though. Note: I'm not suggesting that you should. Just saying what I think I would do.

Society doesn't feel it's ok for "children" to commit crimes like that. The legal system is supposed to reflect what society feels is appropriate. It has failed you, and itself.

Khannie

Angels wrote:

I'd say well done to the gards for hammering them in custody the probably deserved it.

What if they hadn't deserved it? What if it was you in custody getting "hammered"? Gardai aren't allowed hit people for a reason.

alfa147

Khannie wrote:

What if they hadn't deserved it? What if it was you in custody getting "hammered"? Gardai aren't allowed hit people for a reason.

Don't be nieve, im sure they did deserve it.. id glady bounce some scummers head off a wall if i was a cop in the same situation..

Knackers. i hate them..sorry to hear about ur uncle.. Id say the lads will die of the junk in a couple of years.

Don't ruin ur life over to toerags.

boardy

MrNotQuiteReg wrote:

Man, I used to think there was law & order in this country
but now I doubtful, from events like this and comparitively trivial things which would have happened to me myself.
Ive become much wary when walking around, you know if law won't protect me I have to protect myself by watching out for trouble. Im not living in fear not quite, but I theres are a lot of people who do, like older and vulnerable people etc.

and

Angels wrote:

Nowhereman i feel terrible for you & your family. This is just typical though these days of our judicial system.

It is amazing that this is the prevailing feeling throughout the discussion. This is how I felt after returning from years abroad. I could not get over the lawlessness in the streets and the accepting attitude of the citizenry. I initially tried to do something about it in my own locality but was warned that my family (young nieces and nephews) would suffer repercussions if I continued.

There is something inherently wrong with society if we have to live like this. I lay the blame squarely on our ‘elected representatives’. They really do suffer from the contagious head-in-the-sand syndrome. And the sad thing is that I do not see any viable alternative to the current crop in government.

It is encouraging though to know that there are a lot of people out there who are as fed up as I am. Make sure when the next politician comes to the door that he/she gets an earful.
Maybe write a letter, send an email, call them on the phone or go to their constituency office and let them know of our displeasure. I’ve done it and felt ‘a little better’ after I expressed my opinions.

Angels

Khannie wrote:

What if they hadn't deserved it? What if it was you in custody getting "hammered"? Gardai aren't allowed hit people for a reason.

Ammm to be honest i was just making a comment to the OP.

By the way these guys beat up & KILLED a man.

If u were a guard & saw this man lay dying would you not feel a bit angry towards these guys who just think it's all one big laugh.

More so they got away with. The main issue here is how can this man get justice & closure???

Fysh

Angels wrote:

Ammm to be honest i was just making a comment to the OP.

By the way these guys beat up & KILLED a man.

If u were a guard & saw this man lay dying would you not feel a bit angry towards these guys who just think it's all one big laugh.

More so they got away with. The main issue here is how can this man get justice & closure???

And you want the guards to decide on the spot who's right or wrong and who deserves a "hammering", even if they can't get get the full story at the time?

Regardless of what these guys have done or are accused of doing, the only way anything approaching justice can be done is by treating them as innocent until proven to be guilty in court. That is justice. Anything else, especially anything involving violence, is just revenge. Violent revenge in an incident like this would be essentially admitting that you think their approach to life (random violence for the sake of it) is superior to any other approach. Is that something that will really benefit the OP? Is violence the best solution to this problem, or just something that will perpetuate the problem?

Closure on an issue like this is going to take a lot of time and effort. Getting involved with some sort of campaign or support group would be a positive step forward as it would help take the focus away from his personal loss and shift it onto trying to help others and prevent recurrences of the same problem.

Sangre

Angels wrote:

I'd say well done to the gards for hammering them in custody the probably deserved it.

You do realise its exactly that sort of thing that gets a case thrown out in the first place.


Basically the Irish system errs on the side of the criminal;
'Its better to let 10 criminals walk away then imprison one innocent man' A sound principle in theory but it leads to hurt and anger like this.
I could go into a long spiel about why Ireland is like this (and there are plenty of reasons) but I won't.
You should challenge this anger and guilt into something productive.
Better Garda presence or better conviction rates

Atrocity

I was assaulted by a group of knackers, I was asked to make an identification, unfortunately I was attacked from behind so I couldn't be sure who did what. Because of that, nothing happened, even though the garda on duty knew this crowd extremely well. They'd done this kind of thing around twenty times before and gotten away with it. If I could do one thing differently, I would have lied and just pinned it on one of them. Then they could have argued amongst themselves if one of them got sent down unfairly. Justice and fairness: bullsh*t. It's all very well to promote proper procedure and all that, but it's no comfort to you when you're the one who's been fuc**d over and nobody cares. Anything to reduce the number of scumbags on the street.

LegacyUser

To the OP. I know where you're coming from, my sister was brutally attacked by a scumbag. He got off on a technicality, I have no words to describe how I felt watching his scum family celebrate in the court as it was announced. Cheering as if they had won the lottery, no respect for what my sister had suffered at his hands. As much as I've considered paying this ****er a visit, I know by doing so I'll be no better than him and will bring up old demons for my sister and family.

Oriel

Why are you bringing it up 7 years later?

Oriel

Before I get a clip round the ear by a mod - the reason why I ask is - there is something that recently made you think about it so much that you post here to ask for help. What was it?

LegacyUser

nothing, I've always thought of it, I just never had an opportunity like this to anonymously express my feelings to fellow Irish people.
As for the police brutality thing, they CLAIMED police brutality, but would you really believe a word from these scum? Claiming police brutality is the norm for all scumbags. General lawlessness is a problem in ireland, a large section of society of no respect for anyone or anything.

iceman_2001_ie

markpb wrote:

isn't is possible to take them back to court as a civil case instead of a judicial case

A civil case against the people who did this might be the only course you can take within the law.

I believe that revenge will achieve nothing except get you in trouble.