Timber Floors/upstairs/UFH...

Tobi2

Hi everyone
Was hoping to put tiles on upstairs floors but a non-runner for a variety of reasons, (one of the things to add to the list of "will know better next time..").
We are now opting for timber flooring, which I have to say, after initial reluctance we are now quite happy with.
We have underfloor heating upstairs and I would really appreciate any advice on what is best to use for this area.
Semi solid, solid or what????
What woods are better than others..?
What is the best way to lay the floor..I am getting advice from various shop assistants, but tbh I am dubious of their knowledge of ufh etc.

Would love some info/advice/pointers in right direction.

Thanks in advance
Tobi

johnnyrotten

High quality laminates are probably best . They are less likely to expand and contract with the heat etc

yop

Tobi - We have the same setup and are putting a semi solid oak upstairs. Gluing the boards together and not to the floor.

2 of my mates have teh same setup with no issue

stapeler

Approx eight years ago we put down 3" solid maple upstairs in three rooms, Glued the tongues and nailed strait to the joists, They haven't moved yet...so that's what I'd do again...Only last week I put down a new maple floor in living room. Shopped around and the best value solid timer I could find was for a Hardwood supplier in Lucan. He has Maple, Wallnut and Oak in 3" & 4" boards at good value from EU 24 per sq yard...He's in the Buy & Sell but prices displayed there aren't exactly correct...

charlesanto

yop wrote:

Tobi - We have the same setup and are putting a semi solid oak upstairs. Gluing the boards together and not to the floor.

2 of my mates have the same setup with no issue

Totally agree with the yop strategy except ... gluing the boards down will improve heat transfer. If they are floating there is a possibility that you'll get a little layer of air acting as an insulator

johnnyrotten

charlesanto wrote:

Totally agree with the yop strategy except ... gluing the boards down will improve heat transfer. If they are floating there is a possibility that you'll get a little layer of air acting as an insulator

Yop suggested gluing the boards together and not to the floor! i.e. a floating floor

billy_beckham

Tobi,
we put down a floor on ground floor with ufh, and like urself we got advice from loads of different people. Some saying it was ok to use solid others saying stay well away because of warping,expansion etc. In the end we decided we didn't want to take the risk of spending a lot of money on a floor and having to take it up in a few months. So went went for what is called an engineered floor. Very similar to semi-solid except that instead of 3mm of timber as with semi-solid you have 9mm of timber. So it will last as long as a solid floor and has a much better look/feel than a semi-solid. It is also a floating floor by the way.... we are very happy with it....

Hope this helps.....:)

Builderwoman!

If you are going for solid timber go for the narrow widths. If in Dublin call to Mulveys in Ranelagh. Very helpful and knowledgable.

regedit

Tobi2 wrote:

Hi everyone
Was hoping to put tiles on upstairs floors but a non-runner for a variety of reasons, (one of the things to add to the list of "will know better next time..").
We are now opting for timber flooring, which I have to say, after initial reluctance we are now quite happy with.
We have underfloor heating upstairs and I would really appreciate any advice on what is best to use for this area.
Semi solid, solid or what????
What woods are better than others..?
What is the best way to lay the floor..I am getting advice from various shop assistants, but tbh I am dubious of their knowledge of ufh etc.

Would love some info/advice/pointers in right direction.

Thanks in advance
Tobi

I spoke to one of the guys at Dess Kelly during the weekend and he said that he can swear by the Quick Step laminated flooring. He was saying that it is almost to good to be fitted upstairs. The semi and solid flooring seems to have gone down on price quite a lot lately while laminated flooring is maintaining its price. The top of the range Quick Step is sold for some 30€ per sq. metere and they charge another 13 Euro for fitting it (albeit most likely during the Christmas sales they will be doing a promotion and offering the fitting for free). Think about it.

patrido

Hi Tobi
Solid wood can be used but it must be used carefully. There are 2 disadvantages of using solid... firstly, it resists the transfer of heat more than laminate does. It's important you tell your ufh designer that you're using solid wood, so that the spec for the heat output from the floor is high enough.

secondly, wood will contract during the heating season, and expand every summer. a badly installed floor will only last a couple cycles before it warps and twists.

paying attention to a few key things will ensure that your floor lasts for years...
- moisture content/humidity. the building should be well dried out before installing and the wood floor itself should have about 8% moisture content.
- ability to expand and contract. nailing is a big no no. a floating floor is best. junckers do a very nice clip system that allows the whole floor to expand and contract as a unit. following the manufacturers instructions are very important here.
- narrower boards are better as a rule, but check with the manufacturer.
- you should confirm that any glue used is suitable for ufh before using it.
- floor temperature is very important with wood. normally the max floor temp in an occupied zone is 29 degrees (33 in bathrooms). anything over 29 is way too high for wood. some ufh systems (like rehau) have the ability to set a maximum floor temperature, and have a probe under the floor to cut off the heat if it gets that high. junckers only guarantee their floors if the temp never exceeds 27 degrees.

hth
patrido

hargo

Pergo and Quickstep both do a laminate that look like tiles. I have just layed the Pergo Modern tile see Pergo.com. and its a very good product and easy to lay

Tobi2

Thanks for all the info folks...
So..semi solid is better? Or engineered?
I read/heard about Junkers before, that they are designing/producing for the ufh market now..maybe I dreamt that?

Floating is better? Yes

God, tiles would have been so much easier...!

Where did you get the Semi solid oak Yop, if you don't mind me asking?
Also, anyone else have recommendations where to purchase?
Live down south, Cork direction...

Many thanks again for all the info and advice
Tobi

Ps. Can someone please tell me how to activate the "quick reply" thingy on these boards?

yop

RMK in Tallaght, premium oak semi-solid.
They are wholesaler, I got them through a contact, so they will not deal with the public as far as i know, but u never know!

patrido

Tobi2 wrote:

So..semi solid is better? Or engineered?

it's easier to get everything right with semi-solid / engineered as it's more "dimensionally stable" . but if you want a solid wood floor, by all means go for it, but don't take any shortcuts.

Tobi2 wrote:

I read/heard about Junkers before, that they are designing/producing for the ufh market now..maybe I dreamt that?

they guarantee that their product won't twist or warp with ufh. provided of course that you follow their installation instructions, and that the floor temp doesn't exceed 27 degrees. they have lots of detail on their website junckers.com. Brooks regularly have sales on junckers (i'd say there will be one in january) which allows mere mortals to afford it

admont (solid) and rappgo (engineered) also make claims about ufh.

Carb

Hi everyone
Was hoping to put tiles on upstairs floors but a non-runner for a variety of reasons, (one of the things to add to the list of "will know better next time..").

Hi Tobi2, what were the reasons that you're unable to put tiles upstairs. Thats my intention also, so I'm starting to worry.

Tobi2

Hi guys.
thanks again for all info.
Patrido, came accross a floor today, memory fading fast now but think brand was Zafira (maybe Zafria/Zafra???) Will have to phone shop tomorrow for name again, just googled there and nothing coming up only car stuff.

Engineered floor, qualities of solid floor that can be laid as a floating floor.
Comes in 6ft planks, with some joins within, for effect.
Let me try to rem specs: 90mm width and 15mm thick.
Does that make sense?
Sorry I scribbled everything down and now trying to read back...will have to confer with hubby for clarification..(he babysitting at mo!).

Cost E25 per sq mtr.

Has anyone come accross this type of floor?
Apparently it comes from Canada..or so the guy said.
Would appreciate any info at all.

Carb, re no tiles, well due to our lack of info/homework and generally feeling as we go on this project of ours a couple of things were done differently upstairs than we had planned.
Very first of all, when we were designing the house and subsequently building, we did a standard second floor, ie not a slab floor or reinforced floor that we probably should have done had we planned our heating system and bathroom in advance.
So with standard second floor (timber joists..sorry I can't recall techie terms for these things, again will confer with hubby in time).
Anyway, installed ufh as planned, and laid screed on top to facilitate heat transfer etc, so now we have a bare floor that is made of cement and battens (?sp). Tiler cannot lay tiles on uneven surface and in all has to be of same substance to ensure completely level and also to allow for heat and movement etc...timber and cement are not going to "move" in the same way so we were setting the scene for an uneven floor.
Tiler suggested we lay about 2mm (or did he say inches) of cement and smooth over to make smooth surface for tiles to be laid, but due to the initial construction of the house and it being a normal (not reinforced) structure, and bearing in mind that there is already extra weight due to the screed etc, the building would not take an extra flooring of cement.
Another solution suggested was to lay marine ply all over the floor and make surface level and tile on that.
Apart from the whole cost of that, marine ply is not cheap, it seemed completely pointless to go laying wood (not good for heat transference in the first instance) on top of heating pipes then to tile on top of that.
Not to mention the waste of money.
So, from more to less, we opted for timber flooring now as it is the most affordable and seems to be more practical at present.
Also, with kids, of which there is one and another en route, the whole falling out of bed thing seems much nicer on a wooden floor than a tiled one...if ya know what I mean?
We have decided to tile bathroom and ensuite floor, so have laid marine ply on these floors ready for tiling. I am wondering how these floors will feel in due course, with wood and tile on top...
So, it pays to discuss and decide all these things at the beginning with someone in the know, UFH people? or Architect?? Someone with experience of the whole system would be ideal....but these folk were hard to come by in the early days for us. Also, as Patrido has mentioned the ufh system/layout should be done with finished floor in mind.
It was not until we got to this point that I see why people don't go for these systems and anything straying from the norm...the homework one has to do can be headache causing and while all very interesting most of the time, getting info can be a chore and really does take time and investment, imo.

We live and learn as they say.

(another thing we were thinking of was having a wet room upstairs but this was a non runner due to a number of factors, mostly to do with the structure of upstairs and the extra stuff needed for a wet room..Again a very non technical answer but will have to confer with hub for more specific info if requrired).

My apologies for long reply, hope it makes sense and I am sure hubby will cringe when he hears of my descriptions, but hoping that I am halfway right/making sense above.

Thanks again guys for info.

Regards
Tobi

beolight

just wondering what decision/solution was arrived at?

Tobi2

Hi Beolight
Well...after many phone calls and windowshopping we opted for Junckers in the end. Pricewise it worked out maybe a little bit over €1000 more than anyhthing else we considered, and that we kept getting different info on..(when you factor in the "other stuff" that you have to buy to lay the floor too, ie underlay etc)
Justified as follows:
The cost over the duration of the mortgage will be negligible.
It is part of the whole heating system.
Also, and I guess this is what you pay for in the end, I contacted many companies selling timber floors and maybe it is my area or what but it seems to me that the market is flooding at the moment.
I suppose we wanted a floor that has stood the test of time and will be around (all going well) in the future, should we have any problems.
I find at the moment stores seem to be changing suppliers a lot, if I buy a floor today I would like to know I would have some comeback on it in a few years time if there are major issues. If the company no longer trades then I have nothing. I am not explaining that very well but I hope it makes sense?

Also, the floor is a floating floor, easy to lay, and they had a colour we liked:) .
Time will tell if we will regret it or not, I will report in a few months.
We were able to buy at a 'discounted though not quite sale' price, as it was not on sale as such. Even though we are not ready to lay it yet, they will store it for us until we are. Also, I phoned the store a few times and got a different quote each time..so we went to buy on the day I got the best quote. We are only doing upstairs in timber, and as I said elsewhere if I had to timber the whole house maybe we would have had to compromise a bit more.
Time will tell if we did the right thing or not.
Tobi

Wigster

TOBI2 How has your Junkers Floor performed with the UFH. Are you satisfied?

Tobi2

Hi Wigster
Well so far so good I am happy to say.
The only "complaints" we have are that it is a bit creaky, but that is lessening with time.
Actually this would not be an issue if we didn't have a 5mnth old babe who I am sure hears every squeak when I am striving for a few hours to do other stuff like visit boards.ie!!;)
Just asked hubby and his little bugbear is that it is a bit "bouncy" for want of a better word. I think this might be the norm for floating floor?
Also compared to a floor laid straight onto concrete/batons, or esp in comparison to the tiles downstairs, there is a spring in our steps alright!

Otherwise we love it, it looks good and was easy to lay, and I think myself it is looking better as the months go by.
With ufh, it has been grand, it is difficult to tell until we have Wintertime, but the floor is never cold. It is difficult to judge during summer time as where the floor is laid, there is loads of sunlight pouring in and the floor just retains all the warmth.
But when the heating was on initially floor was fine and no probs.

Hope this helps.
Tobi