The End Of Tab Sites Is Nigh

grumpytrousers

this poster is pretty hacked off with this anyway...apologies if there's a thread elsewhere about this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm

Karoma

Nothing new there, they've attached dozens of sites with tabs and lyrics before with little or no long-term success.

Doctor J

Have a read of this.

They're looking for jail time for site owners.

feylya

They did this years ago iirc. Shut down a lot of sites but more just appeared.

OLP

If by some chance it does go through, maybe it'll encourage more people to use their ears.

Kenny_D

Saw that in theory forum the other day. Bad news indeed. Tabs are how a lot of people teach themselves when learnin guitar. If it wasnt for tabs I dont think I would be at half my skill level. I dont think it will happen though

John

From the articles I've read I think they're going to hit powertabs first (as it is the best it's obviously going to be the one doing the most damage to their business). As such I've been downloading like a fiend from there. I can see their point but for the majority of songs I want to learn there are no tab books available to buy anywhere for them.

sei046

Feck the loss i say! Its about time people started going back to the olden days when we had to work out guitar solo's by ear!

Doctor J

sei046 wrote:

Feck the loss i say! Its about time people started going back to the olden days when we had to work out guitar solo's by ear!

Agreed. Maybe they'd pick up a bit of scale theory too rather than just remembering some numbers :v:

disgruntled

"The tabs online aren't deadly accurate so if someone really wants to know it they'll buy the book. "


Now you see the problem I have with this is that I have found some of official tabs to be a dodgy as some of the downloaded ones. Besides surely the fact that they are merely someones interpretation has to count for something, I mean its not exactly the same as downloading an mp3 or whatever. Apart from th likes of powertab I cant see how the simple crappy text tabs could really be "taking more of a bite out of sheet music and printed music sales". Personally I think the likes of powertab is in many cases superior than the printed tab and maybe its just another case of the music industry dragging its feet when it comes to advances in technology, then threatening a bunch of lawsuits when they have been left behind yet again.

Seany

TBH, I dont really see the harm of tab sites. It helps a lot of people who are starting off playing an instrument, to learn songs from bands/artists they like.

Believe it or not, I actually know a few guys who are talented singer songwriters but wouldnt be the most technically minded guitarists out there who have might have problems picking up chord changes just from listening to the song.

A better idea would for bands to provide access passwords (when buying their album) to a dedicated part their website which contain chords/lyrics for their fans who are also musicians. This might help justifying the €19.99 price tag.

Mr. CooL ICE

Seany wrote:

A better idea would for bands to provide access passwords (when buying their album) to a dedicated part their website which contain chords/lyrics for their fans who are also musicians. This might help justifying the €19.99 price tag.

Cue password generators and online lists of passwords.

But tabs are a form of educational tool IMO. No money is made by the tabbers for tabbing. And as someone said, the printed tabs and sheet music aren't always accurate themselves, an example being the Blackened guitar riff in the And Justice For All book (from what ive heard). The artists themselves rarely tab the books, they always get someone else to do it, e.g. Steve Vai working for Frank Zappa, so the sheet music is always someone elses interpretation again, so there is no guaranteed accuracy

sei046

i Dunno. You would be very surprised how much better your sense of music becomes when you get away from tabs and actually listen. You also can get no feel for a song from a tab and even though you have the note and you listen to it to get its timing or whatever it is just not the same. Anyone working from tabs always seems to be very robotic in their playing

noby

Seany wrote:

TBH, I dont really see the harm of tab sites. It helps a lot of people who are starting off playing an instrument, to learn songs from bands/artists they like.

Exactly.

I'm sure it'll be the big companies that push this anyway. I've seen official band websites where tabs are freely available. Usually smaller independent bands. I've even seen guitarists openly contribute to correct their own songs tabs.

My one and only "tab story"
Back in the early '90s, REM were starting touring again, after not touring a couple of albums. Peter Buck walks into a music shop. Two guys whisper to each other behind the counter, 'that looks like Peter Buck'. He proceeds to buy an REM guitar tab book, so they conclude it couldn't be him. Seems after not touring a while and playing a lot of mandolin, he needed a reminder.

Rustar

Let's see this for what it really is.....it's the money-grubbing *companies* who are complaining because you're stealing income from *them*. The artists make very little out of that big pile.

And let's go back even farther...90% of all professional songwriting is stealing anyway. The Beatles were some of the greatest thieves in history. Much of their earlier stuff used 'girl-group' chord changes and melodies from European ballads. Is that a bad thing? No.

Since the vast majority of tabs/sheets are not done by the artists, it amounts to 'someone's idea' (paid transcribers) of what the parts actually are. Once again, that means you are paying middlemen who think they own the entire production chain for a little ease in learning the parts.

sei046

but at the same time it seems fairly fashionable to get all anti-record company. I dont see the HARM in keeping tab sites. its not REALLY hurting anyone. These companies do need their money to be fair so lets not say " Dont give them any money! they dont need it! " I know its cool and all but the truth is without them we wouldnt know too many bands. I am not defending the extortion or anything. But lets not forget the real issue here which is Whether tab sites are really that harmful

Doctor J

I think blaming companies is a bit short sighted tbh. Let's be honest, regardless of their artistic intentions, every artist you can think of who releases a CD or tours wants to shift units. Fact. Yes, Metallica sued napster but there were hundreds of artists who didn't have the balls to stand up and say "Stop stealing my work" but who still felt the same way.

If artists are potentially losing money over this you can guarantee a lot of them have had their lawyers getting onto their publishing companies asking why they are not getting the monies. The company thing is just a handy buffer to keep people from believeing that the artists don't want to get paid just as much as the big bad company. Publishing companies, by their very nature, make money off the song and it's reproduction, they sell the song and the record company sells the recording. TBH it's surprising that this hasn't been a bigger issue before. If this was a book of poetry being reproduced on the internet, for example, (or any copyrighted written work) it might be easier to understand where they're coming from.

Nobody likes their stuff being given away for free when they could quite legitimately expect to get paid for it, don't ye think?

Rustar

If you can repeat poetry from memory, you own it. The question is, are you making money off of it? Since that is what copyright is supposed to prevent.
Should cover bands begin paying huge licensing fees to play each song they do?

Paladin

Load of bollox in ny opinion. Tab sites are useful. I could sit down and tab songs, but I dont have much time after work and its often faster to get a grounding in the song with tabs (they are usually wrong but if it has 70% right it speeds up tabbing the last 30%).

There is no way Id ever ever ever have paid for a tab book. Overpriced pieces of sh1t, that are absolutely not guaranteed to be accurate.

I think this is going crazy with copyright.

Doctor J

Copyright isn't just about stopping people making money off your work, it's also about ensuring you can make money off your work if there is a market for it. Clearly there is a big demand for music transcriptions and the availability of free transcriptions discourages people to buy, in the same way as downloaded music. There is a market there which is damaged by freely available transcriptions, if there wasn't money to be made they wouldn't be taking this course of action.

Paladin

Yes but its the target that is unfair.

They dont mind people in their own bedrooms playing along with their songs, but its only experiences players that can do that without help.
When I was a beginner it was expensive enough to get into playing guitar without forking out E25 a tab book for inaccurate tabs.

Experienced players dont need them, so they are discouraging up and coming musicians, future song writers.

The whole music industry makes more money now from music equipment sales because its easier to get into playing thanks to tab sites, mp3's and Thomann and the likes.

All the corporate suits see is todays money, and negative outcomes.

Doctor J

I dunno, I learned by ear, by actually listening and figuring out what was being played. I still learn whole albums just by listening and playing along. It's a handy skill to have tbh. I've even done gigs where I learned the set in the afternoon and played the gig that evening, learning everything by listening and playing. A lot of people I've played with who learned by reading tabs are **** at listening, at hearing when they're out of tune, or when they play something wrong. They can't tune by ear. Why? Because they've never trained their ears, they just read tabs to pick up new songs. I'm not saying everyone is like that but, in my experience, a lot of the tab generation can't just play along to something new.

Tabs are fine for very complicated stuff but I think people are stifling their own development by not taking the time to actually listen and work stuff out.

As for the legal side of it, if somebody wrote something worth learning they're entitled to say who can and can not reproduce it IMO.

sei046

Doctor J wrote:

I dunno, I learned by ear, by actually listening and figuring out what was being played. I still learn whole albums just by listening and playing along. It's a handy skill to have tbh. I've even done gigs where I learned the set in the afternoon and played the gig that evening, learning everything by listening and playing. A lot of people I've played with who learned by reading tabs are **** at listening, at hearing when they're out of tune, or when they play something wrong. They can't tune by ear. Why? Because they've never trained their ears, they just read tabs to pick up new songs. I'm not saying everyone is like that but, in my experience, a lot of the tab generation can't just play along to something new.

Tabs are fine for very complicated stuff but I think people are stifling their own development by not taking the time to actually listen and work stuff out.

As for the legal side of it, if somebody wrote something worth learning they're entitled to say who can and can not reproduce it IMO.

what he said

Rustar

Of course, whether we get free tabs or play by ear, we're still robbing the artist.

Another point: How easy is it to find sheet music for one song, with high quality tab? All I ever see in the store is books, very expensive books with CDs. Ask for "Get the Funk Out" with tabbed guitar solos as a single song and you'll get laughed at, I think. In this case these companies are not providing what you want. They're providing what THEY want, which is a big expensive product to make them lots of cash.

If the average band plays 40 songs a night, and you were forced to pick up a tab book for each one (plus tons of tunes you'll never play), how bad would that hurt your pocket? Could you even afford it? If I buy $20 tab books, that's $800 bucks.

Personally, I have an ear, use free tabs, and buy tab books if I like the majority of the product. I don't feel that I should be legally forced to use those books to play cover tunes, however.

Doctor J

So what you're saying is that there's a big gap in the market for an affordable and comprhensive legal transcription service, where people can pick and choose what they want to download?

Let's call it I-Tabs

Dave

What's next on the list then. Cover bands I suppose? :rolleyes:

Rustar

Doctor J wrote:

So what you're saying is that there's a big gap in the market for an affordable and comprhensive legal transcription service, where people can pick and choose what they want to download?

Let's call it I-Tabs

Heheh, that's EXACTLY what I was thinking while you were composing your post.
The publishing company makes $50.00 selling you the software, and you pay .20 per song, of which .10 goes to the publishing company and .10 goes to the artist.

They start supporting older songs and keep a vast library. Everyone wins.

Rustar

Gack! Went to Power Tabs tonight and this is what I found:



December 15, 2005 (17:27) - posted by Ronald
Tab Downloading Disabled
Due to the aggressive stance that the MPA is planning against tablature/lyrics websites (see here) we have had to take the unfortunate decision to suspend the downloading of tablature for the immediate future whilst we clarify our legal position. The PTA was founded as a learning resource for musicians and the PTA staff makes NO money from running the PTA but we do not wish to break the law and risk legal action against us. User Compositions will be unaffected and will still be hosted here at the PTA. We appreciate all your comments/support in the PTA forum. Thank you for your understanding. The PTA Staff.

-=al=-

yea i went over last nite to try n downlaod loadsa tabs, but guess it was to late! its really stupid what they've done since most of the tabs are representations of the original songs and what people think it may be, there just music notes after all! you'll probably have to get a licence to listen to the radio, or a licence to play guitar soon, Maybe if u sing a song out loud someone might hear it........ its so lame makes me :mad:

sure why cant people tab out songs and just say its Their representation of what the song MIGHT be...

Doctor J

I'm afraid we'll have to take the same stance, unfortunately. Please refrain from posting up tabs until this situation is resolved one way or the other. We don't want Boards to be in a compromised position.

disgruntled

-=al=- wrote:

yea i went over last nite to try n downlaod loadsa tabs, but guess it was to late!

Yeah me too, but I wonder will this mean people will now start looking for tabs elsewhere with the likes of limewire and torrents? I Hope they find a legal loophole of some description enabling them to come back, powertab really is an excellent resource and its a shame to see it go.

jimi_t

I'd be SHOCKED if there's not a p2p client thrown up if this goes on much longer, though frankly I'm shocked that it's happening at all...

johnwoods

Its just one more step for total control by governments, Rebel I say.

Heathen

sei046 wrote:

Feck the loss i say! Its about time people started going back to the olden days when we had to work out guitar solo's by ear!

true.. im drumming 14 years now and only needed to read drum tab when i was starting out.. but now i have recently taken up guitar and would still like the option to have tab for a song im learning to help me out.. without having to go out and buy the whole album of tab in a big book...

-=al=-

that is if you can find the band u want and that only has about 4 songs u like, costs 30E and the tab probably isnt even 100% correct... its so lame :mad:

johnwoods

I wonder whats next, maby It being Illegal to play a Cover? or mabey Illegal to play notes on the fretboard that have being recorded and copyrighted in any song. Such **** if you ask me.

Johnny Storm

johnwoods wrote:

I wonder whats next, maby It being Illegal to play a Cover? or mabey Illegal to play notes on the fretboard that have being recorded and copyrighted in any song. Such **** if you ask me.

100% agree. A very short-sighted and greedy move if you ask me. Probably an act of desperation. Can someone please name the band that would not be delighted to have other people covering their songs at home and in local bands?

Record companies and publishing houses will be going the way of the dinosaurs shortly;)

Rustar

Ah, yes, I remember what freedom we used to have before the Music Law.

Would you like to go for a spin in my brilliant red Barchetta?

Johnny Storm

Eh? Too obscure for me dude !

Rustar

Don't know your Rush? Tsk tsk tsk.

'Red Barchetta' is a song about driving an illegal performance car around after all automobiles have been outlawed sometime in the future.
Give it a listen!

It's on the Moving Pictures CD. I strongly recommend that if anyone is interested in sampling Rush, they buy Moving Pictures.

Johnny Storm

Sorry 'bout that, chief. I'm a BOC man, myself.

Heathen

Rustar wrote:

Don't know your Rush? Tsk tsk tsk.

It's on the Moving Pictures CD. I strongly recommend that if anyone is interested in sampling Rush, they buy Moving Pictures.

man i love yzz off that album.. some savage song for the drums.. im not mental on rush vocals so that song really does it for me being an instrumental.. great song!!

Rustar

Johnny Storm wrote:

Sorry 'bout that, chief. I'm a BOC man, myself.

Me too! In fact, my band's been doing Godzilla and ETI for like 12 years now (except when we weren't playing).
There's a lot of the 'science-fictiony' aspect in both bands, especially the early stuff.

Johnny Storm

Rustar wrote:

Me too! In fact, my band's been doing Godzilla and ETI for like 12 years now (except when we weren't playing).
There's a lot of the 'science-fictiony' aspect in both bands, especially the early stuff.

Nice one. I'll give Rush a listen. Another band I like of the same era in the fiction-fictiony vein is Hawkwind, especially when Lemmy was with them. The live double album Space Ritual did my head in back in the day.
<dalek voice> ....you will notice small objects, such as ornaments, begin to oscillate...These are the first signs of imminent sonic destruction....

EDIT: now that I think of it (and to keep slightly on topic) I learnt both ETI and Godzilla from tabs. It's OK suggesting that you can work them out for yourself but that presupposes some actual musical talent

John

Johnny Storm wrote:

Another band I like of the same era in the fiction-fictiony vein is Hawkwind

Now you're talking my language! Hawkwind are indeed most fabulous.

Rustar

Which of course reminds me of the 2 Uriah Heep fantasy albums, Magician's Birthday and Demons and Wizards, killer stuff.

On topic: too bad we can't get tabs for these anymore. :v:

Shanegggg

Has this thing got nething to do with MX Tabs.

Hasn't been working for the past couple of days. :mad:

Rustar

MX tabs, like PowerTabs, are non-functional because evil corporate giants have slain them.

"You vill use our product and no ozzer, efen zo ve do not supply ze product zat you need." -Music Publishing Association.

I'm about this close to calling a boycott. Hey, we did it for France, why not the MPA? :v:

John

I'd like the sheet music people to publish this:

Johnny Storm

Here's a petition you can sign to register your unhappyness with these efforts to make tab sites illegal.

WetDaddy

Is there a petition we can sign in opposition of that photo every being posted again?

Signed the petition myself. Tabs are a great way to learn guitar and I don't feel that it drastically affects the artists in any major way.