Stormontgate collapses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Squaletto

All the hype , all the media uproar, the downfall of a democratically elected government, the jumping on the anti Sinn Fein bandwagon and the usual bashing from the usual revisionists, FOR WHAT!!!!

Can we safely say that Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness are indeed able to tell the future? I for one now understand why Sinn Fein find it extremely difficult to join up to the policing board.

Can anyone give me a reason why SF should join the policing board given that there still remains elements of the old RUC special branch within the PSNI.

Political Policing should be put in the same context as the terrorists, both can disrupt the democratic process. Orde should resign, nothing less will do!:mad:

see http://www.utvinternet.ie/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=68062&pt=n

A Dub in Glasgo

Charges dropped by the prosecution, you have gotta laugh at this waste of taxpayers money :mad:

Maskhadov

what a fake... the unionist were having a fit about the whole thing but it was all a circus.

They sent in about 100 cops looking for stuff and it was all for the cameras. Both sides are as bad as each other up there. PATHETIC

Squaletto

Maskhadov wrote:

what a fake... the unionist were having a fit about the whole thing but it was all a circus.

They sent in about 100 cops looking for stuff and it was all for the cameras. Both sides are as bad as each other up there. PATHETIC

If it wasn't obvious enough for all to see the political side of the PSNI before this,it will surely be seen in their statement about the aquittal of the people involved. I'm paraphrasing but it went something like this, we are releasing the men, who are for the major part innocent, but we still believe that they are guilty!! Then they went on to say in the same breath that the IRA were gathering information on individuals in the north and many people had to be moved at the taxpayers expense!
Inferring that the men aquitted were in some way connected to the results of Police bull****!
In this day and age that should not be allowed and the whingers who cling to the idea that the PSNI are an acceptable force for all in the north should today hang their heads in shame. Oh, yeah what exactly does 'in the publics interest' mean?
Squaletto

Freelancer

Squaletto wrote:

If it wasn't obvious enough for all to see the political side of the PSNI before this,it will surely be seen in their statement about the aquittal of the people involved. I'm paraphrasing but it went something like this, we are releasing the men, who are for the major part innocent, but we still believe that they are guilty!! Then they went on to say in the same breath that the IRA were gathering information on individuals in the north and many people had to be moved at the taxpayers expense!
Inferring that the men aquitted were in some way connected to the results of Police bull****!
In this day and age that should not be allowed and the whingers who cling to the idea that the PSNI are an acceptable force for all in the north should today hang their heads in shame. Oh, yeah what exactly does 'in the publics interest' mean?
Squaletto

Okay thats kind of hysterial thinking. The Police are saying "we think there is still IRA intelligence gathering" we don't think these men are the ones doing it.

Yes you are paraphrasing the exact quote is;

The entitlement of those three individuals to the presumption of innocence remains intact.

"The background to this case is that a paramilitary organisation, namely the Provisional IRA, was actively involved in the systematic gathering of information and targeting of individuals.

And the other view of the

We note also what the police have said: that they have not changed their assessment that (the PIRA) was actively involved in the systematic gathering of information from Government offices and the targeting of individuals.

Essentially the police are saying they think the IRA were involved in spying but are refraining comment on this specific case.

You're intentially misreading the situation to fuel your outrage.

Can we safely say that Mr Adams and Mr McGuinness are indeed able to tell the future? I for one now understand why Sinn Fein find it extremely difficult to join up to the policing board.

Um why? There was an investigation, the police made charges, the proscecution dropped the charges. Happens all the time in any democratcies's justice system.

Can anyone give me a reason why SF should join the policing board given that there still remains elements of the old RUC special branch within the PSNI.

Evidence? Thats pretty much a direct quote from Mc Guinness, a claim he often makes. It's just speculation.

Political Policing should be put in the same context as the terrorists, both can disrupt the democratic process. Orde should resign, nothing less will do!

Yeah fire the most republican friendly heads of the police in NI history.

I'd suggest an alternative reading of the event, politcal pressure made the Crown Prosecution Services drop the credible charges, much to annoyance of the police.

Oh I've not got any evidence to support this, but since you're engaged in wild speculation I thought I'd give it a lash.

The Corinthian

Squaletto wrote:

All the hype , all the media uproar, the downfall of a democratically elected government, the jumping on the anti Sinn Fein bandwagon and the usual bashing from the usual revisionists, FOR WHAT!!!!

I'd go with the sentiments of your sig, TBH - "E chi se ne frega?"

Squaletto

The Corinthian wrote:

I'd go with the sentiments of your sig, TBH - "E chi se ne frega?"

Okay Cor! Rompipalle!!

But joking aside if my memory serves me correctly you were one of the many who did a lot of republican bashing a while back.

It suits you and your agenda to ignore the fact that the Democratic process was messed around with in the north over the whole affair by the actions of a dodgy police force.

It is a disgrace to see the police force pass judgement on individuals while at the same time the judiciary calls them innocent. The PSNI have said they believe the IRA carried out the spy ring and expect the world to trust them at their word without as much as a shred of evidence! What a crock of ****.

This has done untold damage to the chances of building trust between the divided communities and all you can say is 'who cares' ! Pity you feel that way!

I was thinking of changing my signature, what do you think? 'No skuche ala Gats!!!
ciao

Freelancer

It suits you and your agenda to ignore the fact that the Democratic process was messed around with in the north over the whole affair by the actions of a dodgy police force.

Er and again how? Your claim is that this was politicaly motivated. If it was politically motivated surely the crown prosecution charges wouldn't have been dropped

It is a disgrace to see the police force pass judgement on individuals while at the same time the judiciary calls them innocent.

You're right it is. However the police did not pass judgement. They talked about the IRA as an organisation, they did not mention these men specifically. In your fevoured rush to demonise the RUC you're ignoring the fact that they exactly do the opposite of what you say they're doing.

The PSNI have said they believe the IRA carried out the spy ring and expect the world to trust them at their word without as much as a shred of evidence! What a crock of ****.

Thats nice, but there had to evidence to start the investigation in the first place. All they are saying is the investigation is ongoing. I'm a little unclear what about this outrages you.

This has done untold damage to the chances of building trust between the divided communities and all you can say is 'who cares' ! Pity you feel that way!

This? This? I mean exaggerate much? A police investigation occurs, the Crown prosecution services dismiss the charges, I'd see that as an example that the criminal justice system is working, of all the events of the past few years is the one that causes untold damage?

Diorraing

Freelancer wrote:

Er and again how? Your claim is that this was politicaly motivated. If it was politically motivated surely the crown prosecution charges wouldn't have been dropped

Yes, politically motivated but as the op said by the PSNI and Unionist not the British Government or the Courts. The Brits want to see devolution as much as anyone else. The Crown Prosecution charges were dropped because there was simply no evidence and I think thats the point the op was making.
It is amazing the amount of people on this site who bash SF and the IRA for undermining the democratic process that don't say a word when it is the P.S.N.I/R.U.C (I'm convinced they are the same now) that undermine the democratic process.

Squaletto

Freelancer wrote:

Er and again how? Your claim is that this was politicaly motivated. If it was politically motivated surely the crown prosecution charges wouldn't have been dropped
Hello ...anybody home? The charges were dropped because there was no CASE, continuing on would have just shown that up!!!!


You're right it is. However the police did not pass judgement. They talked about the IRA as an organisation, they did not mention these men specifically. In your fevoured rush to demonise the RUC you're ignoring the fact that they exactly do the opposite of what you say they're doing.

Thank God you agree with me that the PSNI are in fact the same old RUC of old, thanks man!

Thats nice, but there had to evidence to start the investigation in the first place. All they are saying is the investigation is ongoing. I'm a little unclear what about this outrages you.
If the PSNI/RUC are the police force they have an advantage over the rest of us, they can make up the ****e and claim anything they want, we are to believe them on the basis that they are honest brokers in the whole arena. Hold on a sec...I'm beginning to retch! Honest and RUC brings that on in most normal people!


This? This? I mean exaggerate much? A police investigation occurs See my above comments re POLICE and NORMAL, the Crown prosecution services dismiss the charges, I'd see that as an example that the criminal justice system is working, of all the events of the past few years is the one that causes untold damage?

Thank you for you contribution but really as one poster said previously, some people only want to accept the anti Sinn Fein side of things and are as blinkered in their attitudes as the people they themselves criticise.

Lemming

Squaletto wrote:

Thank you for you contribution but really as one poster said previously, some people only want to accept the anti Sinn Fein side of things and are as blinkered in their attitudes as the people they themselves criticise.

Um ....

Pot. Kettle.

Anyone? :rolleyes:

Have you considered that the "anti-sinn fein side" of things, as you like to call it, might actually be somewhat more grounded in reality than say ... oh I don't know .... the usual SF fluff propoganda?

Squaletto

[
Have you considered that the "anti-sinn fein side" of things, as you like to call it, might actually be somewhat more grounded in reality than say ... oh I don't know .... the usual SF fluff propoganda?[/QUOTE]

I have considered it and I draw the conclusion that the usual propagando crap seeps from the Independent Newspaper group which thrives on filling up space with unfounded and sourceless sources.

As for the kettle calling ...... you could try and contribute to the thread in a constructive way rather than cheap shots at other posters.
Isn't true that even Bertie Ahern has shown his distaste for the whole affair. My God surely you could utter something constructive in our discussion.

Face facts the PSNI/RUC is a dodgy police force and are in league with the NIO to corrupt the principles of Democracy.

True Democrats are arguing that we need clarity rergarding the witheld evidence so as we can make up our own minds.

Was there political interference? Nationalists believe so, Unionists likewise. At least there is eqality there!!!
We must remember that the institutions fell on the basis of this unfounded crap! Democracy was undermined- simple as that.

This isn't just about Anti Sinn Fein agenda, it's about the tearing down of a democratic elected system of government in the north by rogue elements in the PSNI/RUC.

Whatever side of the fence you are on, the whole affair is undermining democracy and will only give voice to those who said all along that the way of violence is the road to take. I disagree totally but I feel that somewhere tonight in the north there are groups of men whispering ? Aye, I told ya so'

Remember Sinn Fein are trying to coax the men of violence along the peace path, isn't it time that the politicians of the Unionist/loyalist side do the same with the PSNI/RUC??

Nuttzz

Surely the ones to suffer in the long run were Trimble and the UUP?

Trimble was first minister and the leader of the majority unionist party in the north, this raid contributed to the fall of the institutions which lead to a loss in confidence in the UUP in the unionist community which lead to the rise of the DUP, somehow I cant see Blair and the NIO really wanted Dr Ian in a position of power/ having a decent mandate

A Dub in Glasgo

Lemming wrote:

Um ....

Pot. Kettle.

Anyone? :rolleyes:

Have you considered that the "anti-sinn fein side" of things, as you like to call it, might actually be somewhat more grounded in reality than say ... oh I don't know .... the usual SF fluff propoganda?

Are you one of the 'anti-sinn fein side of things'? Are you grounded in reality? Who are you saying is less grounded in reality?

In fact, do you have a view on the thread at all?

Squaletto

Lemming, please elaborate on what you mean. I haven't got a clue what you are trying to do in this thread. Please don't take cheap shots at me, try to look at the topic in an unbiased way.

That way we will get to hear your side of the whole Stormontgate affair.

Thanking you in advance!

Ps the PSNI/RUC are in a very sticky corner and the truth will out soon!

Ciao for now
Squaletto:rolleyes:

Squaletto

Nuttzz wrote:

Surely the ones to suffer in the long run were Trimble and the UUP?

Trimble was first minister and the leader of the majority unionist party in the north, this raid contributed to the fall of the institutions which lead to a loss in confidence in the UUP in the unionist community which lead to the rise of the DUP, somehow I cant see Blair and the NIO really wanted Dr Ian in a position of power/ having a decent mandate

No Nuttzz, the whole population of NI suffered the most. Unfortunately at the time Trimble was stringing out his threats to abandon the whole process due to untold pressure by the DUP within his party i.e. Jeffrey Donaldson. He was in a corner and when Unionists are in corners the first route to escape is to blame the Fenians. That way all will be happy in the north and bitterness is built upon over and over again.

It's a massive pity because of political manouvering and fear of change the institutions were abandoned. Trimble made a gamble when going on with the charade and ultimately lost the gamble. In the void moved the DUP including the bould Jeffrey!!!

The sad part of it all was that Peter Robinson and Martin Mc Guinness were actually doing great in their respective posts and appeared to be cooling down towards each other. All that was lost. Damn!!!

Regarding the NIO part of your post, the people in there are a law onto their own, comprized of an old bitter unionist/loyalist vanguard who have nothing but ill feeling towards the Peace Process. Ian Paisley is their GOD.

Hope this helps you Nuttzz.
Ciao;)

murphaph

The PSNI believed they had grounds to prosecute, the CPS didn't. Happens every single day all over the UK, happens with AGS and the DPP fairly regularly too. No big deal.

As for the notion that the PSNI is trying to undermine the democratic process, well as was pointed out by Donaldson (a man that generally really irritates me) on Let's Talk the other night, SFIRA attemted to murder the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government of the United Kingdom in Brighton, that's a tad worse than raiding a few offices even if the PSNI's actions were politically motivated (which they weren't IMO).

I won't listen to a SFIRA supporter lecture me on democracy, 'democracy' is only the latest tool at the disposal of SFIRA because the murder campaign didn't work.

A Dub in Glasgo

lol

For 3 years we have been told that there was irrefutable evidence that SF were involved in a spy ring at Stormont. This trumped up allegation and charge led to the direct collapse of a democratically elected institution. Now all the evidence and charges have apparantly disappeared and some folk still say so what? no big deal

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

lol

For 3 years we have been told that there was irrefutable evidence that SF were involved in a spy ring at Stormont. This trumped up allegation and charge led to the direct collapse of a democratically elected institution. Now all the evidence and charges have apparantly disappeared and some folk still say so what? no big deal

Hold on a second, if you want to blame the unionist parties for pulling the plug, fine, go ahead but claiming that the PSNI deliberately set out to bring down the assembly is a wholly different matter. The Gardai often fail to bring charges against someone they have thoroughly investigated because they have been unable to find sufficient admissable evidence that satisfies the DPP. Does that make every crime or alleged crime that is investigated by the Gardai but which where such investigations fail to bring about a conviction, 'trumped up'? Clearly not, so why must every arrest and/or investigation of a SF member(s) classed as 'politically motivated'???

It is not uncommon for either the Gardai or UK police forces to state; "we are not seeking anyone else in connection with x,y or z". I find it hard to believe the PSNI ever stated that there was "irrefutable" evidence that SF was involved in spying, any and all evidence can be refuted-it's up to the jury whether or not they are going to accept that the evidence is true or not.

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

Hold on a second, if you want to blame the unionist parties for pulling the plug, fine, go ahead but claiming that the PSNI deliberately set out to bring down the assembly is a wholly different matter.

Correct but you seem gloss over the possibility as something that is 'an appalling vista therefore it cannot be right'

The Gardai often fail to bring charges against someone they have thoroughly investigated because they have been unable to find sufficient admissable evidence that satisfies the DPP. Does that make every crime or alleged crime that is investigated by the Gardai but which where such investigations fail to bring about a conviction, 'trumped up'?

Correct me if I am wrong but charges were actually brought against these people for the spyring allegations. They dropped the charges 3 years and 2 months later. That is an entirely different scenerio to the one you are alluding to.

Clearly not, so why must every arrest and/or investigation of a SF member(s) classed as 'politically motivated'???

You will be pushed to find a clearer case for politically motivated raids, arrests, allegations and charges than this one. Do you remember the TV accompanied stage managed raids on the SF offices? and yet you still appear to do an ostrich act.

It is not uncommon for either the Gardai or UK police forces to state; "we are not seeking anyone else in connection with x,y or z". I find it hard to believe the PSNI ever stated that there was "irrefutable" evidence that SF was involved in spying, any and all evidence can be refuted-it's up to the jury whether or not they are going to accept that the evidence is true or not.

I was using the same language as An Taoisach. Jury? You are having a laugh.

breandan

murphaph wrote:

The PSNI believed they had grounds to prosecute, the CPS didn't. Happens every single day all over the UK, happens with AGS and the DPP fairly regularly too. No big deal.

Very big deal when it endangers a peace process I would have though!

murphaph wrote:

As for the notion that the PSNI is trying to undermine the democratic process, well as was pointed out by Donaldson (a man that generally really irritates me) on Let's Talk the other night, SFIRA attemted to murder the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government of the United Kingdom in Brighton,

That was during a time of war, the whole point of the good Friday agreement and events after that date was to consign events like the Brighton bombing ect. to history.
Elements of the PSNI/ British intelligence as well as elements of political Loyalism/Unionism as well as the majority of the Unionist population have and are anti powersharing power sharing with the nationalist/republican community in the six counties.

murphaph wrote:

that's a tad worse than raiding a few offices even if the PSNI's actions were politically motivated (which they weren't IMO).

Says you! they seem to me to be very politically motivated IMO as was their (RUC's) collusion in the murder of hundreds of nationalists during the troubles which you seem to be willing to overlook so you can blame all the worlds woes on SF.

breandan

breandan wrote:

Very big deal when it endangers a peace process I would have though!

Ah come on now-the republican leadership have their sights set on tasty Dáil seats which would probably be permanently gone , if there was a return to bombing-so thats a non issue regardless of what the story was with the charges

That was during a time of war, the whole point of the good Friday agreement and events after that date was to consign events like the Brighton bombing ect. to history.

You mean the illegal war now dont you.I in common with the Irish people never gave permission for it and actively opposed it.

Elements of the PSNI/ British intelligence as well as elements of political Loyalism/Unionism as well as the majority of the Unionist population have and are anti powersharing power sharing with the nationalist/republican community in the six counties.

Well we know that.I can certainly see the reasoning behind anyone thinking that because of this opposition, that they did a set up here.
However,I have to ask,besides hearsay-wheres the evidence of that in this particular case ? surely the shouts of innocent untill proven guilty works both ways? Or is that a card only played on one side?

Says you! they seem to me to be very politically motivated IMO as was their (RUC's) collusion in the murder of hundreds of nationalists during the troubles which you seem to be willing to overlook so you can blame all the worlds woes on SF.

I think its certain that theres a lot of distrust of republicans among non Republicans allright.
However thats very understandable given that we are only a decade into this and everything is fresh in a lot of peoples minds as to what went on and given that disarmament on the part of the IRA only happened in recent months.

That part Brendan, you're going to have to accept as a fact of life as reputations take time to build.

Diorraing

Earthman wrote:

You mean the illegal war now dont you.I in common with the Irish people never gave permission for it and actively opposed it.

An illegal war fought against an illegal treatment of catholics...there's two sides to the Northern trouble. Don't take the simple route of blaming it all on Republicans.
Yes, a lot of people opposed the actions of the IRA. The same people who burnt down the British Embassy, by any chance? Many of thw people criticising the IRA didn't actually live in the North and had no idea of they way catholics were being treated. I would be the first to admit that the IRA committed unnecessary and at times shocking attacks (c.f. Mountbatten), that doesn't mean I opposed their right to struggle. An attack on British Troops/RUC at the time was completely justified (period in question 1960s-late 1970s/early 1980s.)

Earthman wrote:

That part Brendan, you're going to have to accept as a fact of life as reputations take time to build.

Oh do they? Well I take it then you won't be pushing Sinn Fein into joining the policing board up north

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

An illegal war fought against an illegal treatment of catholics...there's two sides to the Northern trouble. Don't take the simple route of blaming it all on Republicans.

I see you accept it was illegal.It's a fact that it was and that it didnt have the authority of the Irish people as a whole either.
I'm on record here as understanding why the troubles up north started.
But theres absolutely no justification at all for why they went on so long.
Enniskillen ? Warrington? What had that to do with rights ? Try justify them and their timing.Thats my main truck with your justification before you get me wrong.
May be I've got you wrong? Maybe you think I dont understand rather than my actual position which is, I under stand, I disagree but most certainly I fervently disagree with all of the totally unnecessary tit for tat done without asking me or anyone like me for permission to do it and worse , done in my name as an Irishman.

Yes, a lot of people opposed the actions of the IRA. The same people who burnt down the British Embassy, by any chance? Many of thw people criticising the IRA didn't actually live in the North and had no idea of they way catholics were being treated. I would be the first to admit that the IRA committed unnecessary and at times shocking attacks (c.f. Mountbatten), that doesn't mean I opposed their right to struggle. An attack on British Troops/RUC at the time was completely justified (period in question 1960s-late 1970s/early 1980s.)

This is where , I think you have me misunderstood.I mean I recognise why there was such feeling at that time.
But later on do you not remember the masses coming out in protests nation wide asking the IRA to stop.
They had enough of the unjustified warringtons and Enniskillens.
Those activities had nothing to do with civil rights, they were simply a Brits and unionists out affair.
Most people in Ireland would have regarded them as repugnant

Oh do they? Well I take it then you won't be pushing Sinn Fein into joining the policing board up north

You might want to ask Chris Patten what he thinks of that-his name is often quoted-"fully impliment Patten" etc but he'd like to have SF on that board.
Thats the funny thing about politics though-We could argue all night here and take various stand points on this but at the end of the day Sinn Féin will eventually join that policing board.
I doubt there will be mass sackings of protestants in the police in the meantime-that after all would be the opposite of inclusion and a slap in the face to more than half of NI's electorate who arent going anywhere.

Freelancer

Squaletto wrote:

Thank you for you contribution but really as one poster said previously, some people only want to accept the anti Sinn Fein side of things and are as blinkered in their attitudes as the people they themselves criticise.

You know I was going to response to all this but as Lemming said, pot kettle black, I'll stick to responding to posters who want to raise the tone of debate, not lower it.