Ending of Artists' Tax Exemption

gaf1983

Should the current tax exemptions granted to creative artists in this country be done away with?

samb

Absolutely, I can't see any justification for millionaires not to pay tax whatever the profession.

SpittingImage

I disagree, Writers and Artists are contributing to the economy anyway by making Irelands artistic culture greater, so no need for taxes.

Imposter

SpittingImage wrote:

I disagree, Writers and Artists are contributing to the economy anyway by making Irelands artistic culture greater, so no need for taxes.

All professions contribute to the economy in some way. Surely footballers/programmers/engineers could be considered artists too! That would be fun.

Time Magazine

It just needs to be capped at €30-50,000 per annum.

Problem solved, methinks.

Hobbes

If they were real artists they wouldn't care about the money anyway :v:

edanto

Definitely should be capped. Scrapped for the high earners.

Cork

If a builder built an something like the syndey Opera House - He would be taxed.

It is about time these artiests began paying their fair share.

Mailman

There is already plenty of scope for high earners, regardless of whether they are artists or not to minimise their exposure to tax.
The tax exemption should be capped at a reasonable level and this will serve to protect those who create art. The very wealthy artists can use their tax advisers to minimise their tax exposure in the exact same way as wealthy businessmen do.

Were not living in Scandinavia here, it's not as though if the tax break was taken away that all their wealth would be taken from them.

Tazz T

The problem is many artists, writers for example, don't have regular income. They can recieve a large payment one year and lthen nothing the next. So they could end up being taxed too much.

As an example, say you got an advance on a book of 30k that you had to live on for three years, it wouldn't be realistic to tax you on the whole amount and expect you to live on the the 20k left for 3 years.

There is a need to tax their income over a period of say 5 years. In the above case no tax would be paid. When en artists start out they earn nothing at all and many would give up rather than persevere if it weren't for the artists allowance.

That said, there is absolutely no excuse for millionaire artists not to pay tax.

m1ke

Scrapping it completely would effect a few hundred small earners who if they relied on art as their income would have difficulty affording food/rent. It would wreck a few thousand peoples livelyhoods for the equivlant of a pittance in terms of what the exchequer could take back.

Capping it wouldn't make a difference as it would pretty much only effect less than 100 people who are rich enough to move their business elsewhere. In this way the economy would end up making a loss on the other forms of taxes they pay. However, society would loose a greater source of social/cultural capital that isn't easily quantified.

Now the farmers on the other hand..... there is a case for scrapping grants and funding for doing nothing.... but that's for another thread

Meh

SpittingImage wrote:

I disagree, Writers and Artists are contributing to the economy anyway by making Irelands artistic culture greater, so no need for taxes.

You could make a similar argument for just about every profession. Teachers are making a huge contribution to the economy through educating the next generation, let's exempt them from tax. Nurses and doctors are vital to the economy, they shouldn't be taxed. Without electricity, the economy would grind to a halt, let's give all ESB workers a tax exemption. Without food, we'd all starve, so farmers shouldn't pay any tax. Property developers are contributing to the economy by building new homes for people, they shouldn't pay tax either.

Tazz T

Actually I think he has a point there. Becoming an artist is a notoriously difficult profession to get into. A lot of people simply give up. In a way the tax break is just as valuable as the money we invest in art, culture and sports. We are promoting Irish art and culture on the world stage. That's a good thing.

Once upon a time, art was one of the few things we exported.

Mailman

I make a huge contribution as well.

I work for a multi-national based here in Ireland. We sell practically nothing in Ireland yet bring huge wealth and economic activity in to the country. can I have a tax break too.

I'm writing my great piece of literature at night and getting paid nothing for it.
can I get a tax break cos without the day job I can't afford to eat.

No.
Tax breaks should be capped.

Tazz T

Mailman wrote:

I make a huge contribution as well.

I work for a multi-national based here in Ireland. We sell practically nothing in Ireland yet bring huge wealth and economic activity in to the country. can I have a tax break too.

I suspect your company is getting it on your behalf.

Mailman wrote:

I'm writing my great piece of literature at night and getting paid nothing for it.
can I get a tax break cos without the day job I can't afford to eat.

Me too. Guess we're not good enough.

Meh

Tazz T wrote:

Actually I think he has a point there. Becoming an artist is a notoriously difficult profession to get into.

Plenty of other professions with high entry requirements (solicitor/barrister, medical consultant/surgeon) are taxed to the hilt

Tazz T

To be any of these all you need is a qualification.

Becoming an artist takes more than an degree in art.

Mailman

You have to ask yourself what benefit any of our dead artists would have got from the tax benefit as currently implemented when the majority of them achived next to no recognition during their lifetimes.
Doesn't seem to me to be the best way to incentivise artists.

the artists who did go abroad went abroad for mental stimulation amongst other things. The impoverished theocracy that was Ireland was a bit too constraining for many of them while it was the stimulation to create for others.

Patronage is a time tested system that works. tax breaks to people earning feck all are next to useless. A post thatcherite government couldn't possibly see this as everything must have a price or monetary value attached to it.

Hobbes

Tazz T wrote:

To be any of these all you need is a qualification.

Becoming an artist takes more than an degree in art.

That is not entirely true. qualifications will get you work experience but if your not any good to begin with your not going to go anywhere for it. Plus you get taxed.

That fact is there is no way to determine if someone is "an Artist". Some singers never had any qualifications so the fact they got away for so long not paying taxes is just taking the p!ss tbh.

Cork

Tazz T wrote:

There is a need to tax their income over a period of say 5 years. In the above case no tax would be paid. When en artists start out they earn nothing at all and many would give up rather than persevere if it weren't for the artists allowance.

Income Averaging for the self employed already exists.

Tazz T

Cork wrote:

Income Averaging for the self employed already exists.

It does????

Not according to my self-employed tax returns of the past three years.

luckat

One reason for tax breaks for artists is that they are unlikely to have continuous high earnings.

For instance, if you write a best-seller, you may get a great advance for it, and good royalties, and possibly you'll repeat this for the next book and the one after.

You're highly unlikely to continue this pattern through a career of 40 years, though.

If you want to become rich, don't become an artist; become a civil servant. Or a politician.

Mr Cowen's limit on the tax break has certainly driven out the consistent high earners, and the artists who've immigrated to Ireland - they'll take their spending power and join the other millionaires in Andorra or Monaco.

And if inflation continues to go the way it's been going, the limit will soon be one that people will reach without difficulty.

I'm saddened by this mealy-mouthed act. But then maybe Fianna Fail isn't a party of big art buyers.

lazydaisy

Its stupid that its creative artists but interpretive artists are excluded. So you have to be a writer or composer, but an actor or musician doesnt qualify. Also it seems that its really rich successfull ones who qualify, like Bono and Neil Jordan, and not the ones struggling to make ends meet who are working as waiters or other low end jobs and can barely afford supplies and or training. So, while its a nice idea in theory its actually grotesquely unjust.

ronbyrne2005

the new 5 year 250k tax free is ample tax free income for any artist. if your earning over 250k over every 5 years from artistic ventures your already a success. i think some millionaire artists will leave the country but they should be shunned by irish people for turning their backs on their country and failing to pay a fair share to the tax system,who wants those type of people here anyway? american artists all seem to live and pay tax in america.

with this new law no qualifying artist should be strugglin unless they've little ability which im afaid many do.
as for art being a difficult professsion to break into,i dont think having unlimited tax free income is gonna change that,if you have talent you will make it ,artists of the past didnt make it as often they were unknown by most of the world,with modern communications its far easier for anyone with talent to become known.i concede that some talented artists wont achive fame/financial success in their lifetime but this people usually wouldnt get recognition untill after death regardless of the tax free income status.true artists create art not for financial gain.no one will struggle to eat buy their art supplies etc under 50k every year tax free allowance.even an aerage artist can make money giving lessons/grinds/classes and other cash paying activiites or shock horror (im not a philistine) a day/part time job,most good artists can apply their creative abilities to another job to support thier artistic endevor

ronbyrne2005

im glad that the "artist" Cecelia Ahern will be getting taxed, its "artists" like her who gave the tax exemption a bad name, fine art like van goghs would be in the same category as miss aherns if van gogh was alive in ireland today,thats a joke

BrianD

Mailman wrote:

I make a huge contribution as well.

I work for a multi-national based here in Ireland. We sell practically nothing in Ireland yet bring huge wealth and economic activity in to the country. can I have a tax break too.

I'm writing my great piece of literature at night and getting paid nothing for it.
can I get a tax break cos without the day job I can't afford to eat.

No.
Tax breaks should be capped.

Well we all no some of the shenanigans that some of these companies get up to in terms of shifting money through this country with are low tax rates.

In regard to the artist tax exemption it is a cheap red herring to take attention to the the dozens over highly suspect tax breaks that others benefit from e.g. the tonnage tax on shipping and all the ridiculous property breaks that are available.

Only a few artists really benefit from the exemption and this only covers their earnings (royalties) from song writing and not merchandising, touring etc. I believe that this exemption has allowed Ireland punch above its weight on the worldwide stage. However, look at the annual list of those who benefit and most are hard pressed to get a song played on Irish radio never mind conquer the world. I would agree that a cap might be appropriate.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that a major software company has benefited from tax relief on royalties from software being classed as original material in this country.

ronbyrne2005

no software doesnt count,your thinking of microsoft paying 12.5% tax on licence revenue for software for all european sales when it should be paying at a higher rate as the software wasnt written in ireland or ssomething along those lines.

Cork

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

im glad that the "artist" Cecelia Ahern will be getting taxed, its "artists" like her who gave the tax exemption a bad name, fine art like van goghs would be in the same category as miss aherns if van gogh was alive in ireland today,thats a joke

Why single out Cecelia Ahern?

The cap has to be welcomed on the equity grounds. Some artiests will have to start paying tax or live elsewhere.

Their choice.

Hobbes

Detective: This is the home of Larry Mullen, the drummer for U2. Look. There’s Larry now, sitting by his pool crying.

Bertie: What’s the matter with him?

Detective: This month he was hoping to have a gold-plated shark tank bar installed right next to the pool, but thanks to Cowen, he must now wait a few months before he can afford it.

Come. There’s more.

Here’s Caroline Corrs’ private jet. Notice anything? Caroline used to have a Gulfstream IV. Now she’s had to sell it and get a Gulfstream III because people like Cowen won't give her a tax break. The Gulfstream III doesn’t even have a remote control for its surround-sound DVD system. Still think this budget was no big deal?

Bertie: We… didn’t realize what we were doing, eh…

Detective: That is the folly of man. Now look in this window. Here you see the loving family of Matt Molloy. Next week is his son’s birthday and, all he’s ever wanted was an island off the coast of Galway.

Bertie: So, he’s gonna get it, right?

Detective: I see an island without an owner. If things keep going the way they are, the child will not get his paradise.

Bertie: We’re sorry! We’ll, we’ll never make a budget like this again!

Detective: Man must learn to think of these horrible outcomes before he acts selfishly or else… I fear… recording artists will be forever doomed to a life of only semi-luxury.

(apologies to south park :v: )