is this 'fighting'?

john kavanagh

fighting?

i'm sure for some people this is a lot of fun, and as long as the intention is 'fun' then all good! but for some ma clubs this is the closest they ever get to putting their training in a 'realistic' sparring environment.

Roper

It sure didn't look like the guy in the headguard was having fun, he looked terrified.

Dave Reilly

Fedor might run into hiding if he sees this guy in action :-)

pma-ire

thats not even good semi-contact fighting!

the young lad was holding back way too much!!

or else he just was'int able?

the instructor was just playing tag?

dlofnep

It was pretty sad tbh. The young guy looked like he was holding back and scared. Also, he was twirling around like a ballerina.

dlofnep

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7788014624733110708&q=fights

Same guy again.

dlofnep

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3089521986531132267&q=fights

And again. Check at 42 seconds - His takedown defense sucks! Also, at the start he falls on the ground - Proving that he needs to also work on his ground game! And his stand up game.. I don't like his helmet neither. I think he should buy a new helmet.

Issus

Did he get his black belt I wonder? Cause if so.... *shudder*

The Grandmaster dude at the end seemed like he was about to laugh in despair at the guy.

Poor guy, wonder how is patterns were... Hmmmmmm

damo

the sooner karate is recognised as a 'game' or 'sport' and 'definately not real fighting' the better

Cabelo

Don't you think there are some decent Karate practitioners out there?

I don't doubt there are somewhere.

john kavanagh

of course there are! some of the toughest 'fighters' i know came from that style of play. its always bad to use anecdotal evidence regardless of what side of the argument you're on.

the question was really 'do you believe 'sparring' like this will help your self defence training?'

the reason i ask is that over the years i've had many many discussions with bb's of various martial arts about MMA style training/sparring and they say its unrealistic for SD training due to the fact that there's no multiple opponents, weapons etc etc and yet when i watch them 'spar' it looks like this.

now i'm not saying MMA is 'fighting' either, its a sport with rules BUT i do think its the closest thing you can get to replicating 'fighting' while still remaining safe as long as you train smart.

Colm_OReilly

the sooner karate is recognised as a 'game' or 'sport' and 'definately not real fighting' the better

Paradoxically, the 'realistic fighting arts* will often call themselves a sport and spend more time thinking about the competitive arena rather than the dreaded street.






*Note: Realistic IMO, containing but not limited to: Judo, MMA, Thai Boxing, etc.

Damo W

damo wrote:

the sooner karate is recognised as a 'game' or 'sport' and 'definately not real fighting' the better

Hi Damo,

I believe that most people can identify that competition is a 'game' and that possibly some attributes are developed through what is 'commonly' seen in karate competition.

But using the term Karate generally is not appropiate,

Kyokushin Kai, Seido etc. hold knockdown competitions.
(In 1966 Jon Bluming showed his style of mixed striking and grappling to Mas Oyama, as per interview with Graham Noble)
Ryukyu Kempo etc. engage in 'bogu kumite', full contact including throws with protective gear.
(Mabuni Kenwa (1889-1952) is pictured wearing armour for sparring to move away from the 'tag' style that was developing, to encourage contact and keep karate-ka safe.)
Koryu Uchinadi engage in MMA style format, striking and grapplining, 4-5oz gloves and shin pads.

You see this 'game of tag' problem has been around for a while and attempts have been made to introduce alternatives. So not all karate is equal.

I believe it is safe to assume that there are many other derivitives that engage in some format of sparring that is not so limited as 'shobu ippon' etc.

But your right it is a game, but when does it not become a game?

Damien

Naos

Dlofnep, Those vids were pitiful. That 'takedown' after 42 seconds..
/shakes head.

As for is this fighting?
I wouldnt be too convinced to join the club if that was their sparring..

damo

Sorry if my post came accross as being rude and all that...i jsut think that the 'fighting' in that clip is dangerous to be taught as actual fighting...you get kids learning that stuff and being given blackbelts and a huge false sense of security.

pma-ire

damo wrote:

Sorry if my post came accross as being rude and all that...i jsut think that the 'fighting' in that clip is dangerous to be taught as actual fighting...you get kids learning that stuff and being given blackbelts and a huge false sense of security.

spot on man!

dent

Just watched a few of those vids. Just hope none of them ever end up in a brawl. The lack of a guard alone is an unforgiveable offence. Just go's to prove that a belt is only good for holding your pants up.

Tim_Murphy

The first two clips are basically points fightings, done poorly. I'm not sure what to call the third clip.

In fairness, any points fighters I've meet who were actually good and competed at a high level at it never pretended that it was anything it wasn't. points is points. Saying 'ya but that won't work on the street' is a bit redundant IMO

Cake Fiend

These clips are pretty pathetic, but I doubt the guy actually believed he could use that kind of sparring in a real fight. Plus, if this was the 'final fight of the black belt test' as it says, the kid is probably so knackered he can barely stand. It certainly looks that way - he's probably gone through three or four rounds of sparring, after patterns and basics, and possibly a several-hours technical seminar.

Cake Fiend

damo wrote:

the sooner karate is recognised as a 'game' or 'sport' and 'definately not real fighting' the better

Walk into a Kyokushin dojo and say that. See how long you last.

Millionaire

if done of sport or fun only thats ok..but in this clip the standard was crap. both guys kept turning away.

MMA fighting is nearest. but also include drills that physc you out too that replicate actual street situations. do both and you on the way!

EPO_MAN

dent wrote:

Just watched a few of those vids. Just hope none of them ever end up in a brawl. The lack of a guard alone is an unforgiveable offence. Just go's to prove that a belt is only good for holding your pants up.

you're not much better though ...mr kettle.

Darth beefious will destroy you!

john kavanagh

"but also include drills that physc you out "

in my experience the ultimate 'phyche out' drill is competition...or public speaking. both great ways of getting you ready for that flood of adrenaline when something goes down

Roper

Ahem.....

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages. Thankyou for coming here today to ...

Yeah you're right John now I feel ready for anything....

Issus

Damo W and Sico I agree with you in the Karate styles ye've mentioned as having actual relevance to fighting, but if Damo was to say the sooner 70% of Karate out there

is recognised as a 'game' or 'sport' and 'definately not real fighting' the better

I come from a Karate background, Shotokan and Wado Ryu, and it's saddening at times to see the average blackbelt's real fighting skills. While I know that most of them do it for fun and the such, they still should be able to at least basically defend themselves. They are drilling punches and kicks at least 2-3 hours a week!!! You do that in Boxing or a Kickboxing style for 3 years and you'll at least know how to duck and weave until you can run the %^$£ outta there (the true ULTIMATE MA!!! RUNNING!!!)

The styles ye mentioned are great, and I have always seen them destroyed nearly everyone of the other styles I've seen in Karate. But sadly they're the minority Karates', most are the McDojo types that end up making Karate look bad and produce clips look these.

I think it say something of the other styles when someone comes in downing a roundhouse kick that's like Kyokushin's style, i.e. a powerful chopping kick, and their told their doing it wrong and must do it in a way that chamber's the kick and loses alot of the power, i.e. the slap kick that most people do, and this person is told by some of the top BBs in the country. Then explained to later that it's because the kick is to powerful for competition (the original kick was not that strong, caused some grimacing once in a while if it hit right) and would hurt people.

OK it's me, and it was in Japan. This, among other things, is what turned me off Karate and made me stop doing it. I still love Kyokushin and Seido etc but alot of the more 'traditional' Karate's have weakened their technique for competition. It just annoys me when they then claim it's a good SD when it's not.

Sorry... rant over... just had to get it off my chest... And I know that not ever school and BB in a style is the same, that just hit a nerve ages ago and needed releasing...

As they say in my line of work, Every Situation is Different, or ESID for short

damo

Walk into a Kyokushin dojo and say that. See how long you last.

only so long as im allowed to bring my trusty hurley!!

dent

EPO_MAN wrote:

you're not much better though ...mr kettle.

Darth beefious will destroy you!

Careful there EPO_MAN or I'll report you to Sheriff O’Reilly.

In regards to the video clips relecting on Karate as a whole I think you have to take it with a pinch of salt. Give BJJ a few years of politics and organisational splits and you will probably see some dodgy videos of it being executed poorly.

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

"but also include drills that physc you out "

in my experience the ultimate 'phyche out' drill is competition...or public speaking. both great ways of getting you ready for that flood of adrenaline when something goes down

Yes true. You must also train for "pre fight ritual" that is very important, the ranting, the pushing, swearing, getting you fence up etc. If you know how to deal with this, you are better prepared to calm the guy down and walk away or defend. Geoff Thompson type drills and similar . rememebr attacks come usually out of the blue when you least expecting and you often alone.

while with competition you have weeks to train both physically and mentally. visualise etc. and also its kinds of nice to have your coach in the corner!

so mix of all this me thinks.

Also Knife and weapons training very important.

Damo W

damo wrote:

Sorry if my post came accross as being rude and all that...i jsut think that the 'fighting' in that clip is dangerous to be taught as actual fighting...you get kids learning that stuff and being given blackbelts and a huge false sense of security.

I didn't percive it as 'being rude and all that...', its the popular common misconception that one becomes a 'fighter' when one gets a black belt, where as in many mainstream karate systems (hope thats not to general) its the ability to perform techniques - wheather single, in combination or throught the means of a predetermined set of movements (kata) - at a suitable level of proficiency for the grade being sought, and to the satisfaction of the examining panel, mainstream karate systems do engage in sparring for gradings but this is within the very restrictive rule bound tradition.

Cheers

Damo W

Issus wrote:

Damo W and Sico I agree with you in the Karate styles ye've mentioned as having actual relevance to fighting, but if Damo was to say the sooner 70% of Karate out there

I come from a Karate background, Shotokan and Wado Ryu, and it's saddening at times to see the average blackbelt's real fighting skills. While I know that most of them do it for fun and the such, they still should be able to at least basically defend themselves. They are drilling punches and kicks at least 2-3 hours a week!!! You do that in Boxing or a Kickboxing style for 3 years and you'll at least know how to duck and weave until you can run the %^$£ outta there (the true ULTIMATE MA!!! RUNNING!!!)

The styles ye mentioned are great, and I have always seen them destroyed nearly everyone of the other styles I've seen in Karate. But sadly they're the minority Karates', most are the McDojo types that end up making Karate look bad and produce clips look these.

I think it say something of the other styles when someone comes in downing a roundhouse kick that's like Kyokushin's style, i.e. a powerful chopping kick, and their told their doing it wrong and must do it in a way that chamber's the kick and loses alot of the power, i.e. the slap kick that most people do, and this person is told by some of the top BBs in the country. Then explained to later that it's because the kick is to powerful for competition (the original kick was not that strong, caused some grimacing once in a while if it hit right) and would hurt people.

OK it's me, and it was in Japan. This, among other things, is what turned me off Karate and made me stop doing it. I still love Kyokushin and Seido etc but alot of the more 'traditional' Karate's have weakened their technique for competition. It just annoys me when they then claim it's a good SD when it's not.

Sorry... rant over... just had to get it off my chest... And I know that not ever school and BB in a style is the same, that just hit a nerve ages ago and needed releasing...

As they say in my line of work, Every Situation is Different, or ESID for short

Issus,

Probably your right with 70% but I don't think there is any way to put a figure on it, I tried to put a figure on it during a discussion on a karate board and was beaten down

A good old rant is a great thing

We agree that false advertising is a bad thing espically when you see 'ultimate self defence' highlighted in their campaigns, but karate-ka do absorb some benefits in relation to self defence, even if it is only active participation in physical activity...

Once you examine the 'history' i.e. how popular 'modern traditions' were formed, what influenced the training, who were the main participants you clearly see what outcome was sought... and then we are back to 'Outcomes determines the means'...

This is one of the reasons for the movement to rekindle the 'koryu' practicises before the 'tag style' competition gained dominance.

What were the original intentions, what were the original practicises... will a study of these add 'teeth' to modern intrepertation of karate?

This is not for everyone and some may just pack it in and move for a more obvious approach (MMA etc.) and thats cool 2.

But for karate-ka that enjoy the journey outside of the specific function of fighting then its an excellent oppertunity for development.

Just my 2 cents

Damien

peterl

everybody seems to agree on the poor quality of these spars, I think it's a good idea for any martial artist to spend some time sparring in a good boxing club.

pma-ire

peterl wrote:

everybody seems to agree on the poor quality of these spars, I think it's a good idea for any martial artist to spend some time sparring in a good boxing club.

If they are left!!

john kavanagh

"I think it's a good idea for any martial artist to spend some time sparring in a good boxing club."

good idea - some find this a big wake up call, others go away muttering about 'multiple opponents', 'the street' etc etc

Millionaire

Learn a bit of Muay Thai...

I though kickboxing was intensive until I started Thai this year...man what a difference.

Roper

Ultimately lads, and I'm sorry if this offends, you can't polish a turd.
The reason most of these Karate styles become so.... well so like the clip, is because they stray awau from contact and into ever more contrived areas. Take Kyukoshinkai, simple. Kicks and punches trained hard. Produces, on the whole, very effective fighters. Then take turd brand. I'll stay away from naming styles as there's good and bad everywhere. The more complex it gets, the more "situations" they train for, the less effective it becomes. It ends up looking like the above.

Ger Healy

Roper wrote:

Ultimately lads, and I'm sorry if this offends, you can't polish a turd.
QUOTE]

You can if you dry it and then dip it into a varnish

A presto a shinny turd

True it's still a turd but it's shinny turd and after all isn’t that the most important thing.

You might even be able to sell it and make some money for yourself

john kavanagh

"The more complex it gets, the more "situations" they train for, the less effective it becomes"

well put!

Damo W

Roper wrote:

The reason most of these Karate styles become so.... well so like the clip, is because they stray awau from contact and into ever more contrived areas.

This is unfortunately a by-product of the schizophrenic nature of karates development. It changed (evolved is probably not the ideal word here) from a highly efficient defensive tradition to calisthenics for school children to a Japanese budo 'way', where the emphasis changed from practical efficiency, character development and finally to a sport (a very rule bound sport).

John wrote:

"The more complex it gets, the more "situations" they train for, the less effective it becomes"
well put!

In fact, I would say quiet the opposite to 'complexity' (miriad of techniques against a standing opponent) has occured in many styles.
Karate do is a Japanese Budo or 'martial way', therefore the emphasis is more on character development that practical efficiency. This rather more esoteric reason results in the (often mindnumbingly boring) endless repetitions of kihon that is a feature of all Japanese Martial Arts.
At each lesson you try and improve at every level, you try and overcome your weaknessess (this could be physical or spiritual - for instance fighting through the boredom of doing gyaku -zuki x infinity).

Cheers

Damien

Roper

Some good points there Damo. The esoteric training is not something I'm all that familiar with, however I would say that as long as character development and not self-defence is the stated aim, and that there's no confusion between it and the actual nature of fighting, then it's cool by me. The trouble, as I think we all know, is when these areas combine, and the person who has completed their character training now believes they have the ability to defend themselves.

In my last post I was specifically referring to those arts which claim to concentrate on STREET effectiveness. A funny thing that always strikes me is that the sparring alway tends to look like kickboxing. I think someone came on here and said before that "yeah but our self defence and sparring are seperate". This was never explained to a lad I know who tried his sparring moves on a guy who hopped on his mate outside a chipper. The results were less than impressive.

Dave Joyce

http://www.atienzakali.com/pages/videogallery2.html

Theres a new clip (as well as an old one) of Mass Attack or multiple opponents if you prefer and believe me this type of training (even at the lower levels) gives one a quite reasonable amount of adrenaline.

"everybody seems to agree on the poor quality of these spars, I think it's a good idea for any martial artist to spend some time sparring in a good boxing club".
Well yes maybe if you want to improve your sparring, but on the street you don't really want to spar an opponent (just take them out when you've no choice with the slyest, meanest and nastiest **** you can do) and I think this is where there is a totally different mindset to preparing to fight/spar and looking to "survive" a real encounter where there are no limits, rules or rounds.

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

I think someone came on here and said before that "yeah but our self defence and sparring are seperate". This was never explained to a lad I know who tried his sparring moves on a guy who hopped on his mate outside a chipper. The results were less than impressive.

This is the usual reason that people leave MA's and say that they don't work!

Millionaire

Dave Joyce wrote:

http://www.atienzakali.com/pages/videogallery2.html



Well yes maybe if you want to improve your sparring, but on the street you don't really want to spar an opponent (just take them out when you've no choice with the slyest, meanest and nastiest **** you can do) and I think this is where there is a totally different mindset to preparing to fight/spar and looking to "survive" a real encounter where there are no limits, rules or rounds.

Yes my thoughts exactly.
Those Kali drills look great. we did a good bit of similar stuff over past year.

And a bit of thai to back this up conditioning wise. and some ground just in case!

EPO_MAN

dent wrote:

Careful there EPO_MAN or I'll report you to Sheriff O’Reilly.

In regards to the video clips relecting on Karate as a whole I think you have to take it with a pinch of salt. Give BJJ a few years of politics and organisational splits and you will probably see some dodgy videos of it being executed poorly.

Oh I see DENT or is that DENTON.....
Hide behind somebody else...

But I agree with you - the discussion on "Ireland Ultimate fighter" proves that this gak is happening for Bjj too.....

damo

those kali drills are totally choreographed though....anyone have any footage of someone defending a real multiple attack?

Colm_OReilly

Slighty OT as the whole "why are you carrying a knife?" debate has been done, but this hit me a while ago, and it was an epiphany to me.

When "MMA" guys start talking, they usually have a problem understanding why someone is so worried about violent encounters, carry knifes. battons, etc. and for me I always thought "what sort of life are you living where this is a threat?"

I don't get into fights, I don't experience any aggro when I'm out on the mean streets of Dublin. And when I've tried to explain this to other people on here and other boards/discussions they can't comprehend exactly what I'm saying.

Anyway I was reading some other stuff about "your reality" and how you chose to define it, and then it hit me. Street fighting is totally incongruent with how I perceive the world, so it just doesn't happen with me. Anyone who's read on how the mind works (Pinker, Gladwell, etc) will know that when we hold a belief we only chose to recognise evidence that supports that belief and staunchy oppose any evidence presented to us that may refute it.

This may not sound like I've fully expressed myself but the basic premise is that if you focus on how savage attacks can and are likely to happen they will happen, whereas if you focus on healthy and positive aspects of your life and put your energy into that then they will grow.

This make sense to anyone?

Colm

Ger Healy

Nice post Colm.
It makes since to me.
I just don't understand people who only train for self-defense, Ok if you are in the security business i.e. guard, doormen or army their is a need for this type of training.

But for the average Joe soap what’s the point?
Why train for something when you can not cover all the variable in a violent attack IMO much better to train with a healthier outlook.
And if you are misfortunate enough to be in a street situation then these skills will help you as much if not more to survive as any SD training would.

judomick

I think what colm is saying is that, if you believe that Dublin is not a full of crime and fights in bars every night, then you will a experience ona whole a much nicer dublin, on the other hand if you walk round thinkin theres gonna be a fight theres gonna be a fight! well chances are theres gonna be a fight! personality has a lot to do with it also1

how was your childhood tortega?

joke

fianna.5u.com

Colm is 100% correct. And made that point very easy to understand, even for those who would have the most difficulty understanding it.

Colm's post resonated with me, I have experienced the same thing. I too don't get this whole mean streets of Dublin vibe that people seem to WANT to buy into.

While Colm made clear the phenemenal aspect of this mindset there is another point often made by people like Gladwell and other social philosophers. That is, you get what you expect from people. For example, you put up barriers and riot police and you incite a riot. You let a city turn into a ghetto, people behave like criminals, you build prisons and you fill them.

So if you expect fights and to be attacked there is a good chance you will be seen to invite them, wheather you like it or not.

I've made this point before: I train for Self Defence and street attacks all the time. It is a core part of my MMA training. It is called wind sprints.

Another point I'd like to make is this: I'm not a bad fighter, I dont know anyone, of the top of my head, who trains for street that I couldn't beat easily. Thats permitting them to bite, scratch, pull my hair or any other girly tactics Matt Furey like's to sell as down right dirty street tactics. So why oh why, aren't they doing wind sprints with me? Because they buy into there own nonsense.

Peace

Cake Fiend

Issus wrote:

This, among other things, is what turned me off Karate and made me stop doing it.

OK, but you can't blame karate for that; blame the instructor or club. I'm confident that my (Shotokan) instructor could kick bollix out of most people, so clearly karate itself is not the problem (or even the particular style). It's the people who teach/learn it badly.

And this is the problem I have with threads like these, where someone digs out some clip of someone CRAP and claims that this is indicative of Martial Art X. You wouldn't trot out some guy who does BJJ or whatever for a couple of hours a week and barely takes it seriously to show off the SD potential of the art, but for some reason it's become perfectly acceptable (if not downright fashionable) to take pot-shots like this at TMAs. :rolleyes:

fianna.5u.com

The above post (tortega) is a stunning example of what Colm is talking about.

"If you train in MMA, you're aiming to engage in a brawl."

That is completely wrong.

Peace

Roper

I'm going to weigh in somewhere in the middle of all this. Yes there is a harsh reality of street attacks and violence in Dublin, but it is nowhere near as prevalent as self defence "experts" would have you believe.

I understand some people wanting to be able to look after themselves should the need arise, indeed I think if you did a straw poll of many beginner martial artists you would probably find this somewhere near the top of the answers. I think where the mindset difference manifests itself is after this beginner phase. That is, I might start for self defence, but do I stay for self defence? This comes down to the attitude of the club or gym IMO. Lots of parents start their kid boxing so they'll be able to look after themselves, I think if you looked at these cases, after a couple of years this would be a secondary concern to competition, social, or fitness reasons.

Colm and Fianna have a good point. Much of our perception is governed by the concept of self-fulfilling prophecy. That is that when you think something is a certain way then you will perceive it that way.