Gay Marriage (same-sex civil partnerships) ahoy!

flogen

So Civil Unions for gay couples have come into effect in the UK, do you think that Ireland will follow suit any time soon?
I think the only reason they wouldn't isn't for any fear of controversy, but instead for economic reasons (more couples taking advantage of tax breaks etc.)

At the same time, there's always a chance that what remains of Catholic pressure would be great enough to make any party think twice when supporting gay civil unions, if anything just for the hassle it would cause them.

(I know this is a multi-layered topic, but bear in mind that this is the politics forum, and so the moral rights and wrongs of the unions is not part of this discussion, but instead the political likelihood, the effects any moves for or against would have on Irish politics and political parties)

Nuttzz

I think the catholic pressure might have less clout just at the moment, people can be justified in telling them to put their own house in order before commenting on others.

Was there / Is there not a court case were two women who were married in Canada took a case here to get their union recognised for tax reasons?

Uthur

The Minister for Justice Michael McDowell has said that legislation is being written for civil partnerships for same-sex couples here in Ireland but that it will not mimic marriage exactly, as that would be unconstitutional.
Mr McDowell said that the Republic is committed to recognising equality in the proposals, which will be enacted next year.

From today, same-sex couples can register their partnerships in the UK, including in the six counties.

Gay marriage ceremonies will be allowed, under the act, from December 19th in the North, Scotland on the 20th and England and Wales the following day.

Gay and Lesbian couples in the North will now have the same rights as married heterosexuals in terms of tax, pensions and state benefits.

http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=83388

samb

Why not?

Zombrex

Uthur wrote:

Gay and Lesbian couples in the North will now have the same rights as married heterosexuals in terms of tax, pensions and state benefits.

About time ... if they could get that here too that would be great

lostexpectation

will the civil union be ths same for couples of the same sex and the opposite sex?

Uthur

lostexpectation wrote:

will the civil union be ths same for couples of the same sex and the opposite sex?

As far as I can see, yes!

lostexpectation

Uthur wrote:

As far as I can see, yes!

does the current civil union for a man and a women in Ireland "not mimic marriage exactly"

bonkey

Uthur wrote:

The Minister for Justice Michael McDowell has said that legislation is being written for civil partnerships for same-sex couples here in Ireland but that it will not mimic marriage exactly, as that would be unconstitutional.

This might be a stupid question, but does anyone know why would it be unconstitutional?

I've done a cursory search through the text of the constitution and can't find anything which, for example, specifies that marriage is between a man and a woman.

Am I missing something?

I also wonder why the government aren't suggesting a constitutional amendment to make it constitutional in order to grant full equality.

Don't get me wrong...I think they're on the right track, but I'm just wondering what the whole constitutional slant is.

jc

Uthur

As far as I am aware, civil partnerships are fully equal in law to ordinary
marriages. The distinction must be some sort of 'moral' thingy because the
constitution says we're supposed to be a Christian country or some
****e. Basically it makes no material difference

bonkey

Uthur wrote:

As far as I am aware, civil partnerships are fully equal in law to ordinary marriages. The distinction must be some sort of 'moral' thingy because the
constitution says we're supposed to be a Christian country or some
****e. Basically it makes no material difference

But you said the minister claims it won't mimic it exactly. So there will have to be a material difference, surely? Small, perhaps, but if there is no material difference, it would be mimicing marriage exactly.

jc

spurious

Article 41:
3. 1° The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack.

Family = generally taken to be Man + woman + their children.
It's the linking of marriage with 'the family' that causes the trouble, since family is not formally defined.

Personally, I love the UN definition of family:
"The family is technically defined as ‘any combination of two or more persons who are bound together by ties of mutual consent, birth and/or adoption or placement and who, together, assume responsibility for, inter alia, the care and maintenance of group members, the addition of new members through procreation or adoption, the socialisation of children and the social control of members."

Now, THAT in our Constitution would be progress.

tbh

I don't know if anyone heard Michael Healy-Rae on The Right Hooke or The Last Word today. He was saying that the reason politicans don't come out against civil unions and other stuff is because they don't want to seem politically correct, but that in private they are all against it. I didn't catch the name of the two guys he was on with on TLW, think one was Simon Coveny, but it was ironic because he was obviously afraid to openly condemn homosexuality, even though it seemed pretty clear to me that he considered it sinful and immoral. Anyone who argues against change for change's sake is dodgy if you ask me. One of the panelists said "If you don't want a man to marry another man, then don't marry him". I thought that summed up my opionion perfectly.

dathi1

About time. Full 100% support for this.

murphaph

I too would be concerned that civil unions between same sex couples would be not quite marriage because of some sh!te in deValera's handbook. They should be allowed to 'marry' each other if they want, whose business is it but theirs afterall!

samb

Yes I think the Bill put foward by David Norris does not give gay couples full marriage rights. They will not be able to adopt.

One part of the rationale for giving tax breaks to married couple is that the government wants to encourage people to have more children to limit the "greying" that Ireland will undergo in the decades to come. I don't think gay couples will be adding all that much to the country's stock of childern. I think that tax breaks for gay couples could be a quite a contentious issue for that reason.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote:

One part of the rationale for giving tax breaks to married couple is that the government wants to encourage people to have more children to limit the "greying" that Ireland will undergo in the decades to come.

I dont think theres anything written in stone anywhere that says that.Most western if not all countries have their tax laws such that they favour married couples.Some if not many have them updated to reflect a society where people live together but arent formally married.

I don't think gay couples will be adding all that much to the country's stock of childern. I think that tax breaks for gay couples could be a quite a contentious issue for that reason.

With respect,I doubt it.Theres simple human rights involved.Two people living together regardless of being same sex and one of them dies-what happens to the assets of the other?
I'm sure theres loads of other issues too, like next of kin rights etc etc.
Putting it the way you have is more than a tad Halls pictorial weekly and develara-esque...
Those type of attitudes belong in the past in most free thinking modern societies.

Similar threads merged by the way.

tim3115

Wicknight wrote:

About time ... if they could get that here too that would be great

It was illegal up till 1992 you know? But then again, you're as liberal as half the board so I'm not surprised at you coming out with such embarrassing comments.


This country is suffering terribly at the moment with all this liberal bullsh*t. Never have I been more ashamed than in the last couple of years. I've realised now that the current generation has failed our ancestors time and time again, and will continue to by the looks of things.

A sad and pathetic day for our fellows up north.

tim3115

tim3115 wrote:

It was illegal up till 1992 you know? But then again, you're as liberal as half the board so I'm not surprised at you coming out with such embarrassing comments.

2 week Ban for attacking a poster and not the post.

samb

tim3115 wrote:

This country is suffering terribly at the moment with all this liberal bullsh*t. Never have I been more ashamed than in the last couple of years. I've realised now that the current generation has failed our ancestors time and time again, and will continue to by the looks of things.

A sad and pathetic day for our fellows up north.

Ok Tim, come on, what is your problem with gay marriage?, explain, argue your point.

I think you will see this country move further and further away from your idylic view of the past. I just hope you contain that irrational anger of yours.

How does gay people getting married affect you adversely?

patzer117

I've no problem with marraige, they should get the same rights in my opinion under the law.

However I am completely against gay couples being allowed to adopt... maybe that is for a different thread.

patzer

Freelancer

patzer117 wrote:

However I am completely against gay couples being allowed to adopt... maybe that is for a different thread.

That comment and your sig seem to be incompatible. Care to explain why (seeing as we're in a discussion on equal rights for gay couples )

Zombrex

samb wrote:

Ok Tim, come on, what is your problem with gay marriage?, explain, argue your point.

He can't he is banned. I would imagine his answer would be that it is sick and wrong. Not much point arguing with a position like that.

samb wrote:

However I am completely against gay couples being allowed to adopt... maybe that is for a different thread.

I am for married gay couples adopting but you are right its probably a different thread (the whole issue of how being raised by gay parents in an intolerant society will effect the child, bullying and such).

samb

That wasn't me, I think they could make great parents in general. Everyone is individual and should undergo the same adoption criteria

fly_agaric

tim3115 wrote:

This country is suffering terribly at the moment with all this liberal bullsh*t.

I have to say, that really made me LOL. Kudos.
Irish people always have to be suffering - be it of poverty or priests or "liberal bullshít"! I'll have a plate of the bullshít thanks. Please Sir! - can I have some more Sir?:D

samb

Let Tim back in I say, without right-wing big@t ars..holes this thread is no good.. I should be banned under the same criteria now:p

No I'll lock it instead.
As for you samb-behave yourself or you will get a banning.