BT Billing -it just gets worse

Rock Climber

Hi,

Some of you will remember a thread I had here(I cant find it) outlining how BT stuck my dad with a €1200 phone bill that they had never billed him for.
He set up a direct debit and they lost it.
He agreed to give them€300 a month untill its paid off.
He's done that twice now and this was by agreement with them.
The bill is now half paid.

Today he gets a letter from a Mr Tom Hill of BT credit control demanding payment in full or the matters to be handed over to a "third party" for persual.

I'm feeling bad about this tbh as I recommended BT in the first place.

What a shower of incompetants:mad:

irishgeo

they havent taken one direct debit out of my account since i signed up for anytime over a year ago.

Zena

Hi Rock Climber, those so and so's have fecked me about too.

I too received a letter from Tom Hill today - looking for €500 even though the service was terminated in July. BT accounts dept obviously don't realise the account has been closed. I have sent him a letter back by registered post informing him of the chain of events surrounding me terminating the service. I also sent a copy of the letter requesting the service to be terminated.

They need to get their accounts department sorted. They are really pissing me off.

OfflerCrocGod

irishgeo wrote:

they havent taken one direct debit out of my account since i signed up for anytime over a year ago.

Pay. THEY WILL catch you and you will end up facing a HUGE bill.

viking

Rock Climber wrote:

...a €1200 phone bill that they had never billed him for.
He set up a direct debit and they lost it.
He agreed to give them€300 a month untill its paid off.
He's done that twice now and this was by agreement with them.
The bill is now half paid.

Today he gets a letter from a Mr Tom Hill of BT credit control demanding payment in full or the matters to be handed over to a "third party" for persual.

As you say, BT and your dad reached an agreement for him to pay €300 a month until the debt was cleared. BT have now sent him a letter indicating payment in full immediately. BT have now broken their agreement with your father by demanding immediate payment in full.

Call the number on the Tom Hill letter (there should be one), tell them the brief background and since they have now decided to break the agreement your father made with them in good faith (its most important to use this phrase) that he has no alternative but to take legal advice on the matter.

Your dad doesn't have to go to a solicitor unless he wants to but he should simply call their bluff.

Also, I think I vaguely remember your previous thread and I suggested that your dad should seek a discount for the inconvience BT have caused him. did he get one? If not then he should insist on one now when your dad threatens legal action and they back down on the Tom Hill demand. (Which they will do)

I went through these exact same hoops myself for a bill of €600. I called BT every month to tell them they hadn't taken money from me, each month I was told it'll be taken next month. Went on for 5-6 months before I emailed good old Bill who managed to knock some heads together. I got a discount on the outstanding amount and agreed to pay €100 a month and like your dad I got a Tom Hill letter 2 months later.

Pay them no mercy for their accounting cockups and the inconvenience caused to your Dad.

Solair

Someone needs to give BT Ireland a SEVERE audit! That can't comply with normal accounting practices.

If you don't bill someone for a very long period of time it becomes a little legally questionable to attempt to collect on bills that you never sent out even if the person did use the services.

You simply can't do business like that it's just unacceptable.

Could you imagine if Tesco decided to charge your Laser card 6 months later because they'd gone back through your club card statements and realised that they hadn't charged you fully for all the groceries you'd consumed over the last while.

If BT can't manage their accounts they simply shouldn't be in business.

Sponge Bob

You have checked the "special" BT billing site Here have you ??

Solair

Find out which company audits BT Ireland's books and report them the Institute of Chartered Accountants or whoever it is regulates them!

jmcc

Solair wrote:

Find out which company audits BT Ireland's books and report them the Institute of Chartered Accountants or whoever it is regulates them!

I'm sure the Revenue Commissioners would be interested as well.

Regards...jmcc

cgarvey

I can't see any problem.. it's bad business practice, but nothing wrong in accounting (in terms of Revenue or for ICAI/ACCA auditing practice).. they, presumably, just have a large debtors figure. What's the illegal part? They've enough money / bigger fish to fry than to worry about some crumby residential bills (although, they must all add up, surely).

Solair

If they screw up a direct debit arrangement and then try to come after you for money / attempt to cut you off, I would take legal advice.

Surely when you enter into a direct debit agreement with a company you assume that they undertake to automatically take monthly/bimonthly payment via the direct debit scheme at regular intervals.

If they don't do this, I would regard it as a breech of contract / potential breech of contract as that is how you agreed to pay them and you, in good faith, went through all of the proceedures to establish the direct debit, making every reasonable effort to provide them with all necessary information.

Also, under the "postal rule" an item posted is deemed to have been received. So, if you post them anything (e.g. direct debit mandates) keep a proof of postage receipt (available for free from An Post) or, if you're willing to spend a few quid Swift Post it and you can have online tracking records proving delivery.

It's most irregular and unreasonable to expect to be able to rectify enormous billing errors in this arbitary way.

The first thing to do is to write them a letter explaining that ALL of the billing errors were caused by them. That you made every effort to set up direct debit / credit card payments. That you did not cancel/change these arrangements. That they provided no invoices etc etc.. and that you expect them to come to some sort of an arrangement (in writing) or you will be taking the matter to ComReg, The Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs, every media outlet in the country and BT's corporate HQ in London if a satisfactory sollution is not presented to you, in writing, within 10 working days.

Also, suggest that you will have to invoice them for any time wasted / administration or legal expenses incurred should this not be resolved in a timely manner.

dub45

cgarvey wrote:

I can't see any problem.. it's bad business practice, but nothing wrong in accounting (in terms of Revenue or for ICAI/ACCA auditing practice).. they, presumably, just have a large debtors figure. What's the illegal part? They've enough money / bigger fish to fry than to worry about some crumby residential bills (although, they must all add up, surely).

Surely though their auditors and shareholders should be concerned about the inevitable loss of revenue that will result from people not being billed on time?
Concerned about what must be one of the worst billing systems anywhere and the calibre of the management team that allows it to continue (incl Mr Murphy who surely got so many emails about bills he should have done something about it)

Concerned about the loss of staff and management time dealing with the consequences of the bad billing system.

concerned about the loss of customers which must result from the bad publicity arising from the bad billing.

Has anyone ever tried to interest any of the newspapers in the debacle that is the esat billing system or even good old Joe Duffy?

jmcc

cgarvey wrote:

I can't see any problem.. it's bad business practice, but nothing wrong in accounting (in terms of Revenue or for ICAI/ACCA auditing practice).. they, presumably, just have a large debtors figure. What's the illegal part? They've enough money / bigger fish to fry than to worry about some crumby residential bills (although, they must all add up, surely).

A potentially faulty accounting system as evidenced by the somewhat erratic billing practices? I think that that's a serious problem for any business.

Regards...jmcc

Solair

These residential billing errors have been going on for years. We were with Esat, EsatBT and BTIreland and stuck with them as they were cheaper (flat rate calls etc) but recently gave up and changed providers due to endless errors.

I get the impression that BT Ireland ended up with a bit of a messy system that was created out of the merger of Ocean, Esat Telecom, IOL etc into one billing structure.

I'd say, vote with your feet if your that unhappy with them.

BT plc should be more concerned about their brand image than to allow this kind of behaviour to be carried out in their name though.

Sponge Bob

Solair wrote:

These residential billing errors have been going on for years. We were with Esat, EsatBT and BTIreland and stuck with them as they were cheaper (flat rate calls etc) but recently gave up and changed providers due to endless errors.

I would go further and say that widespread bad experience of BT billing and the risible 'customer care' dept is the second greatest structural impediment to competition in the Irish Telecoms market after Eircom obduracy. This gross incompetence has been going on for years and years .

If Joe Duffy ever mentioned the words " Esat Billing BT Ireland " in the one sentence his entire inbound telephone system would crash from all the traffic.

fatherdougalmag

You could also let the Consumers Association of Ireland know with the new service they've launched.

dub45

Sponge Bob wrote:

I would go further and say that widespread bad experience of BT billing and the risible 'customer care' dept is the second greatest structural impediment to competition in the Irish Telecoms market after Eircom obduracy. This gross incompetence has been going on for years and years .

If Joe Duffy ever mentioned the words " Esat Billing BT Ireland " in the one sentence his entire inbound telephone system would crash from all the traffic.

What totally baffles me is how have they got away with it for so long? Has anyone in there ever been sacked over the billing system? Surely no CEO with any self respect could allow this to continue?

DonegalMan

Solair wrote:

These residential billing errors have been going on for years.

When Elana Kehoe and I first met ESAT on behlaf of IrelandOffline back in May 2001 (yes, over 4 years ago, it would depress you, wouldn't it? ), I offered tongue-in-check to do a consultancy project to sort out their internal systems.

Maybe I should go back to them less tongue-in-cheek.

Solair

To be fair to BT Ireland their products have been quite innovative and good for the market over the past few years. It seems a shame that they then let themselves down so badly with customer care / after sales service issues.

eircom on the otherhand tends to provide pretty decent service, once you get past their HAL 2000 automated customer care system! Unfortunately, eircom doesn't exactly provide any innovative products, well, unless the innovation creates a new way to milk their customers ... e.g. broadband timed!

cgarvey

I hear all the comments about it being bad practice .. and it is dire. The question I asked (and no one has answered) is how is it illegal? The only reason they've survived for so long with such a crap system is because of the heavier turnover dependency on commercial custom, not residential. Of course it's a concern to all shareholders, etc. It's nothing to do with the Revenue, at all, unless some illegal accounting is going on. It's nothing to do with their accountants or registered auditors (again, unless there is something illegal being done) .. I'm sure their accountants (amongst many others!) have more than highlighted the seriousness.

My point is, though, not that it's ok (it's not OK, of course), but that I don't see what exactly is illegal. I just see it as more of the ill-founded "go to the guards / sue them" nonsense that tends to crop up here a lot. Just because I don't see what's illegal, doesn't mean anything, of course.. which is why I asked the question.

jmcc

cgarvey wrote:

I hear all the comments about it being bad practice .. and it is dire. The question I asked (and no one has answered) is how is it illegal?

Go read some company law. A company has to keep accurate accounts. These billing problems show that there are problems with the system it is using for billing, and by extension with the accountancy framework. The only ones who know for definite are Esat/BT's accountants and auditors.

Regards...jmcc

Wertz

Oh a thread about this already...I was just going to make one about a strange billing demand I received from these imbeciles today as well.

Just as a background, I switched line provider from eircom to BT Ireland early in the summer due to their extensive ad campaign telling how we could avail of DSL and Line rental for an all in price of €57 inc VAT (2mb DSL "Plus" service)...that was gonna save me about 17 quid a month so I took the offer.

However my next bimonthly bill arrived and no discount had been applied as promised...sent off a polite mail asking why and got some reply telling me the issue had been escalated and the extra charge woulf be reversed next bill; it wasn't. That was almost 8 months ago....I've now been overcharged almost €110 and several emails have had cookie cutter replies using phrases like escalation and utmost apologies.
I decided to just dock the amount they owe ME out of my last bill and mailed them to tell them so; 2 days later I get a demand for the full amount owing or face disconnection and referral to a 3rd party collection company (that's right guys, call in the baliffs over a hundred quid that is mine in the first place).
The incompetence is astounding. I've been with them (as DSL provider) for over 2 yrs now and was supposed to have the amont debited to my CC every month...they couldn't even do that right and I ended up having to clear the bill every few months by CC over the phone....but even after a 6 month build up of outstanding fees, I never received nastily toned letters like this.
I;ve a mind to just pay them what they want, cancel by registered post and move over to Smart or someone.

BT Ireland: great product, shame about the rest of the company.

cgarvey

jmcc wrote:

A company has to keep accurate accounts. These billing problems show that there are problems with the system it is using for billing

Roger on having to keep the accurate accounts. However, as you admit, we are only speculating in whether or not that is happening. Let's assume it is, or the revenue investigations would have made national media (though it's possible that it's not, I accept). However there is nothing illegal, that I am aware of, of charging someone 6 months later for something. There's nothing illegal, that I know of, in supplying a service for 10 months, and then billing for those 10 months. The cusomter only becomes a debtor at the point of invoicing, not at the point of supply of service. BT seem to be able to track who owes them what (just that the invoicing/DD is a mess). So it appears to me that their accounting is more than likley accurate. Certainly there's nothing that I've hear to suggest they are doing anything illegal.

.cg

cgarvey

Wertz wrote:

BT Ireland: great product, shame about the rest of the company.

That sums ups most the thinking of most people alright, I think. Have you tried to escalate it on the phone (i.e. don't even explain to the CSR, just ask for a supervisor as you've had this problem for x months now). If not try it.. you'll probably get the "he'll call you back" lark, but it's worth a try. Keep insisting that you'll wait on the phone (CSR's call stats go through the roof, so s/he'll be interested in offloading you).

Failing that, ring the consumer line in ComReg (quiet, down the back!!), and ask if they can look into it. Don't just ask them will they, ask can they, so you don't waste your own time. If they can, ask for a reference so that you can follow it up with them every 2 or 3 days, and do just that.

Failing that send BT a registered letter with a full trace of the communications and saying that you refused to pay the amount from 10 working days onwards. If they don't reply, and (presumably) disconnect you, take them to the Small Claims Court (which is usually done by correspondance) for the amount in question, any reconnection fee, and any dialip/alternative access costs in the meantime.

That advice is assuming what you say is accurate!! It's a crying shame that you have to even consider any of those options, and that ComReg allow this to continue (whether or not they have the power to do anything about it is irrelevant IMO).

Let us know how you get on, whatever you do.
.cg

dub45

Do EsatBT (or indeed their predecessors) state on sign up that customers will be actually debited monthly as distinct from billed monthly?

Do monthly bills always issue? Either via mail or by being posted?

Surely there is wast of money internally in that expense is incurred in engaging debt collectors etc etc which arises almost totally from appalling billing system?

Surely there is damage being done to their ´brand´ through these systems?

Surely they are losing money by not optimising their own cash flow?

Surely any waste or cost which arises from bad systems which must be known internally is of concern to auditors?

Surely Comreg if it wishes to further competition and the spread of bb should be concerned at the incompetence of companies which may be putting customers off taking up bb?

cgarvey

Aye.. "surely" to all. I'd imagine that those make sense to most reasonably thinking people.

I'm not a BTIre customer, so I can't say, but usually it's a statement of intent to debit you at least a specified number of days after your bill (i.e. not before 7 days after your invoice has been issued, but open-ended), so even if they do post you the bill, they're under no obligation to DD you (as long as it's after when they say they will). If they do issue bills (and don't DD), then those customers should appear in the Debtors, which I'm sure they do, to make all accounting above board.

.cg

Solair

Cgarvey:

That's an interesting point actually. Many people never receive any sort of invoice, yet suddenly are classified as debtors.

If you expect to receive a monthly invoice it's at the very least breech of contract (verbal or written) to fail to provide a regular invoice.
If you haven't ever been invoiced it's ridiculous to then send the bill on to debt collectors.

In fact, I 'd think they might even be risking defaming / liabling someone by doing so as they're not actually in debt and the company made no reasonable attempt to collect the amount outstanding.

Just because BT Ireland are a utility company doesn't mean that customers should have to treat them like the revenue comissioners.

They clearly now have plans to be a big player in residential voice/data services even if initially they were primarily concerned with business customers. If they're going to do that they'd really want to get their act together or they'll soon find they loose a LOT of customers to Smart, UPC (the soon to be merged Chorus/NTL entity) and the likes.

I remember when Esat Telecom launched their domestic phone service first it was a total nightmare to get connected to them, but people persisted because it was a LOT cheaper than Telecom / Eircom alternatives. I remember forms having to be filled in at an agent's premisis in triplicate and then faxed and posted off. A serious lag time before you were connected to their service... etc etc

However, those days are long gone and if they don't bring their customer relations / billing practices into line with everyone else they'll suffer badly.

I think their products are excellent ... it's just a shame that they don't have "joined up thinking" and do something about their accounts dept!...

dub45

Solair wrote:

Cgarvey:

That's an interesting point actually. Many people never receive any sort of invoice, yet suddenly are classified as debtors.

....................

I think their products are excellent ... it's just a shame that they don't have "joined up thinking" and do something about their accounts dept!...

But should we regard the bb itself as the ´product´? Surely a product should involve reliable bb good customer support and most essentially a reliable billing system?

Signing up for Esat bb should not result in ´innocent´ people having to spend hours on the phone because Esat have refused to put in place the sort of billing system that any reputable company would regard as a basic necessity for day to day operation. And signing up for bb should not result in having to deal with solicitors and debt collectors through the ongoing incompetence of a company that must surely know for years that its billing system is inadequate and fails to address the problem?

amp

I've always found Esat's accounting somewhat... what's the word... imaginary. I used to have a bill mobile with them and somehow they thought I owed them 900 for a phone I rarely used. Even their letters of demand didn't tie up with the bills they'd sent me. So I stood my ground and asked very firmly that a full list of calls and other charges be sent to me for review.

I think BT have inherited some very, very good engineers, probably some half decent to excellent managers and a whole zoo full of retarded monkeys doing the accounts.

PROTIP FOR BT: RETARDED MONKEYS ARE NOT GOOD AT ACCOUNTANCY!

dub45

amp wrote:

I've always found Esat's accounting somewhat... what's the word... imaginary. I used to have a bill mobile with them and somehow they thought I owed them 900 for a phone I rarely used. Even their letters of demand didn't tie up with the bills they'd sent me. So I stood my ground and asked very firmly that a full list of calls and other charges be sent to me for review.

I think BT have inherited some very, very good engineers, probably some half decent to excellent managers and a whole zoo full of retarded monkeys doing the accounts.

PROTIP FOR BT: RETARDED MONKEYS ARE NOT GOOD AT ACCOUNTANCY!

I think you are probably being unfair to the ordinary staff in Esat they would have no say at all over the actual system. Managers at a high leveli in Esat must be aware of how bad the situation is and yet they choose to persist with it. Think of all the emails that the former CEO got from people on boards alone and yet nothing happened!!!!

damien

Anyone spot the special clause in the draft Telecoms Bill about providers who mess up billing?