Weights for Running

mor

Hi all,
I’ve started running a few months ago & now I’ve set my sights on the Belfast marathon in May (I think). Up till now I focused just on the running. But I was considering adding some light gym work, maybe once or twice a week to compliment my running. I’ve never really used a gym before so I would probably use just machine weights. My gym has a good selection of machine weights but I’m not too sure where to start. I want to further develop my running, so leg work seems obvious but I’ve never really worked on my upper body before, so you can guess what sort of state that’s in.

As I’m not too familiar with gym training, could anyone suggest a routine? Should I focus on leg work or should I start with my upper body? Or both? What sort of weight machine rotation should I do?

Thanks,
mor

ronbyrne2005

running isnt just legs,work on core stabilty
lower back and abdominals are very important, and increase upper body strength a bit but not too much as you will have to carry extra muscle around in the marathon!
"A strong upper body helps minimizes fatigue and stiffness in the arms, shoulders, and neck areas that in turn, enables a runner to maintain form late in a marathon or long run. Legs move only as fast as the arms swing. The runner with a strong upper body will find more power for the sprint to the finish line, an easier crank up a hill, and better balance when running on trails. In short, all of these add up to an ability to run faster and more efficiently. "
do a google search and you will find many programmes for marathon runners

copacetic

as above, your running will look after your legs but some weights won't hurt, concentrate on upper body and core, high reps low weights to avoid putting on any bulk..

p.pete

Wouldn't advise weights for lower body if you're running long distances, as above you're upper body could probably do with the attention there'd be the chance that you'd make your legs less prepared for long distances, I'm not too well up on the mechanics of it though.

Bam Bam

Maybe wear a small pack while running.
Consider what your goal is before you go to the gym.
You want to be able to run a marathon. Have you seen any muscle bound marathon runners?

Instead consider increasing the distance and duration of your run, your goal here such be that you're able to run the distance of the marathon at least once before the marathon

And swimming will work you out cardio wise and increase your upper body strength as well as making the muscle's longer and stronger instead of bulkier.

Transform

couldn't disagree any more than all the previous posts - high reps and light weight? Wear a pack?

If any of the previous posters did an actual marathon they would know that most of the best marathon runners in the world are actually doing more weight training (upper and lower body). The guy who came first in the dublin marathon was actually quite muscular and by no means skinny.

I personally did the dublin marathon and will be doing it or the New York (maybe both) next year and regularly lift weights to a respectable enough level

e.g. session in gym today was a mix of upper back (seated cable row two hands and single arm 4sets of 8-10reps 70kg, tricep dips 4 sets of 20reps with body weight, leg curl 4 sets 8 reps 180lbs etc..........)

Finished with ab work e.g. weighted crunches and reverse hypers.

I think all those wanting to build up their body should use a properly laid out and balanced program and NOT your usual machine based high rep low weight junk.

You have loads of time and should enter a few 10km or half marathons if possible before then. What time you aiming for?

Easygainer

Transform wrote:

couldn't disagree any more than all the previous posts - high reps and light weight? Wear a pack?

If any of the previous posters did an actual marathon they would know that most of the best marathon runners in the world are actually doing more weight training (upper and lower body). The guy who came first in the dublin marathon was actually quite muscular and by no means skinny.

I personally did the dublin marathon and will be doing it or the New York (maybe both) next year and regularly lift weights to a respectable enough level

e.g. session in gym today was a mix of upper back (seated cable row two hands and single arm 4sets of 8-10reps 70kg, tricep dips 4 sets of 20reps with body weight, leg curl 4 sets 8 reps 180lbs etc..........)

Finished with ab work e.g. weighted crunches and reverse hypers.

I think all those wanting to build up their body should use a properly laid out and balanced program and NOT your usual machine based high rep low weight junk.

You have loads of time and should enter a few 10km or half marathons if possible before then. What time you aiming for?

I agree. High reps low weight = low intensity, no results. It's the fat middle aged woman's excuse for why her diet isn't working ..."...but I go to they gym..."

I don't know much about weight lifting for long distance running but the amount of muscle you put on is determined by your diet and the stress you apply to your muscles in training. If you have a calorie restricted diet you can gain strength without excessive size - this is what many weightlifters do to make weight categories.

Just don't eat like I do (I'm now 16 stone) and you'll be fine! I can sprint fast but if I ran long distance I've a hell of a lot more leg muscle to get sore and feed, and a lot more stress on the erector spinae!

copacetic

Transform wrote:

couldn't disagree any more than all the previous posts - high reps and light weight? Wear a pack?

If any of the previous posters did an actual marathon they would know that most of the best marathon runners in the world are actually doing more weight training (upper and lower body). The guy who came first in the dublin marathon was actually quite muscular and by no means skinny.

I personally did the dublin marathon and will be doing it or the New York (maybe both) next year and regularly lift weights to a respectable enough level

e.g. session in gym today was a mix of upper back (seated cable row two hands and single arm 4sets of 8-10reps 70kg, tricep dips 4 sets of 20reps with body weight, leg curl 4 sets 8 reps 180lbs etc..........)

Finished with ab work e.g. weighted crunches and reverse hypers.

I think all those wanting to build up their body should use a properly laid out and balanced program and NOT your usual machine based high rep low weight junk.

You have loads of time and should enter a few 10km or half marathons if possible before then. What time you aiming for?

i've done the marathon and my advice above was based on training with a lot of elite and experienced runners. Using the heaviest looking winner in decades as an example to 'prove' your point is ridiculous...

Transform

ok fair point and my point still relates to the fact that there are alot more distance runners availing of weight training and as has been stated before some people will choose NOT to weight train and i think thats a shame.

I am putting forward my opinion from my sports science background and as someone who trains clients and myself every day and have done for over 10 years.

I also spoke to Padraig (he came second in the marathon this year - of the irish) and in my opinion there are certain aspects of both his diet and training that i would not agree with, however who am i to argue with a sub 2hr 20min marathoner when i have not broke even 3hrs yet?

All i do know is that i focus on keeping up the muscular shape i have developed over the years while aiming for a sub 3 hr marathon this year. all this helps to keep me looking fit without that gaunt look that distance runners can get if their training is totally based on aerobic sessions without any weights.

Finally MOR have you applied any of the above as it is you who needs to make the choice now not the contributors?

copacetic

Transform wrote:

ok fair point and my point still relates to the fact that there are alot more distance runners availing of weight training and as has been stated before some people will choose NOT to weight train and i think thats a shame.

I am putting forward my opinion from my sports science background and as someone who trains clients and myself every day and have done for over 10 years.

I also spoke to Padraig (he came second in the marathon this year - of the irish) and in my opinion there are certain aspects of both his diet and training that i would not agree with, however who am i to argue with a sub 2hr 20min marathoner when i have not broke even 3hrs yet?

All i do know is that i focus on keeping up the muscular shape i have developed over the years while aiming for a sub 3 hr marathon this year. all this helps to keep me looking fit without that gaunt look that distance runners can get if their training is totally based on aerobic sessions without any weights.

Finally MOR have you applied any of the above as it is you who needs to make the choice now not the contributors?

certainly not saying that weights aren't a good idea, they are great and I would recomend them too, but just that avoiding the build up of any bulk at all should be the overiding concern to be as fast a runner as possible.
This is obviously not the same as 'looking good'. I know when I am reaching full fitness as my mam starts to worry and trying to feed me up whenever I make a visit home..

I actually know gerry who came in third of the irish and he does some weights but only very light ones by your standards I would guess. His weight would be 10% below the 'ideal' range and he wants to keep it there as any added strength is negated by a loss in his power to weight ratio..

Would be interested in any insight you have into padraig's program, I understand he trains with Gary Crossan as they are from the same club?
He came close to beating him this year too...

joc_06

daveym wrote:

1 - concentrate on upper body

2 -high reps low weights to avoid putting on any bulk..

Oh my god.

copacetic

joc_06 wrote:

Oh my god.

ffs if you have any information to give from a good source that disagrees please let us all know otherwise don't bother posting, here are some links from 100s on weight training for running that I have:
http://www.runningonline.com/zine/Weight_Training/
http://owlsac.org.uk/Training/weight_training.htm
http://www.marathontraining.com/marathon/m_wt.html
http://www.halhigdon.com/halfmarathon/novice.htm
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/advice/coach/fh51.php


read some of them and do a google and they come back and let us know how you know better than all runners and coaches..

joc_06

Man im sick of you now.
You're a fvcking pr!rk with your head up your arse that listens to no one, knows more than everyone and is fairly abusive too.
You just told a runner to concentrate on upper body work. Wheres the logic in that? Please explain?
Also you say high reps low weight to keep off bulk. Explain that too? Explain to me the different forms of Hypertrophy?
I have no interest in looking at your stupid links. The first one i read said 1 - leg press - What the fvck is that for you clown? It also said many reps with light weights. This is Bodybuilder sh!te.

You havent a clue what you are talking about.
Easygainer told you, Transform told you and now im telling you.
You're wrong and to make it even worse you dont even realise.

Now hows that for a reply you idiot.

WhiteWashMan

joc_06 wrote:

Man im sick of you now.
You're a fvcking pr!rk with your head up your arse that listens to no one, knows more than everyone and is fairly abusive too.
You just told a runner to concentrate on upper body work. Wheres the logic in that? Please explain?
Also you say high reps low weight to keep off bulk. Explain that too? Explain to me the different forms of Hypertrophy?
I have no interest in looking at your stupid links. The first one i read said 1 - leg press - What the fvck is that for you clown? It also said many reps with light weights. This is Bodybuilder sh!te.

You havent a clue what you are talking about.
Easygainer told you, Transform told you and now im telling you.
You're wrong and to make it even worse you dont even realise.

Now hows that for a reply you idiot.

low reps...
high banned....

p.pete

joc_06 wrote:

Man im sick of you now.
You're a fvcking pr!rk with your head up your arse that listens to no one, knows more than everyone and is fairly abusive too.
You just told a runner to concentrate on upper body work. Wheres the logic in that? Please explain?
Also you say high reps low weight to keep off bulk. Explain that too? Explain to me the different forms of Hypertrophy?

Well I'm no expert but I do see logic to it. Runners generally run (it's what they do ) so that'll be the main form of excercise. The original poster says he's aiming to do a marathon but is trying to mix up his training a bit. Running in itself will already be providing conditioning and training for the legs but the upper body can generally tend to get ignored by runners - so if a long distance runner is going to introduce weights to their training it'd be the upper body where they're likely to be ignoring training.

I've read something previously to do with bone density/strength and long distance runners who ignore the upper body. As it's more in use the lower body gets more of a buildup in strength at the sacrifice of the upper. So for this reason alone I'd personally recommend weights for the upper body and not the lower.

In terms of bulk - if your aim is to bulk up, then bulk is good. If your aim is to have big impressive muscles then bulk is good. If your aim is to run for 40km then how much of an advantage is it?

Easygainer

I also think I should pipe in now on the importance of diet to the size you gain from weightlifting.

Regardless of high reps or low reps, it is the relative intensity experienced by your muscle that matter. Ideally, lower rep ranges should be used as they activate the more powerful fast twitch muscles. Show me a top long distance runner without a good finishing sprint - this comes from this type of muscular development.

BUT - all the training in the world won't put on any muscle if you don't eat enough. The fringe benefit of this is that a runner could train more intensely for periods and restric calories to increase strength during this time.

I don't know how you could fit these into a running regimen but I could tell you anything you want about dieting and training to build muscle or strength.

p.pete

Easygainer wrote:

I also think I should pipe in now on the importance of diet to the size you gain from weightlifting.

Why? Original poster suggests doing "light gym work" with the intention of developing their running, aiming to do a marathon. There must be hundreds of threads on this forum about muscle building, bulking up and size gain - they're not really relevant on this one though.

Easygainer wrote:

Regardless of high reps or low reps, it is the relative intensity experienced by your muscle that matter. Ideally, lower rep ranges should be used as they activate the more powerful fast twitch muscles. Show me a top long distance runner without a good finishing sprint - this comes from this type of muscular development.

The "sprint" finish that a long distance runner has is still going to be blown out of the water by a proper sprinter. I run long distances but I can still put in a strong finish after a 20km run and believe it or not I do some light upper body weights occasionally and absolutely none for my legs. For a faster finish I'd recommend cross-training e.g. soccer or football training and also running shorter distances at faster speeds.

Easygainer wrote:

BUT - all the training in the world won't put on any muscle if you don't eat enough. The fringe benefit of this is that a runner could train more intensely for periods and restric calories to increase strength during this time.

AGAIN - the original poster hasn't expressed an interest in putting on muscle, why presume it's what he wants? Definitely diet is important but for a long distance runner I'd suggest it's more likely to include lots of low fat carbs / starchy foods as opposed to high protein type foods which would be more useful for muscle growth.

Easygainer wrote:

I don't know how you could fit these into a running regimen but I could tell you anything you want about dieting and training to build muscle or strength.

very good:rolleyes:

thirtyfoot

Easygainer wrote:

Regardless of high reps or low reps, it is the relative intensity experienced by your muscle that matter. Ideally, lower rep ranges should be used as they activate the more powerful fast twitch muscles. Show me a top long distance runner without a good finishing sprint - this comes from this type of muscular development.

Paula Radcliffe, the greatest marathon runner of our generation, is renowned for her poor kick. Yet she probably spends more time in the gym than any other long distance athlete, working on the muscles that make her the best - slow twitch. She does huge core work and a general conditioning programme. There is no point struggling through a marathon and having a glorious kick at the end, good marathon times are run and marathons are won in the hard miles 1-26, not the couple of hundred yards at the end. Good kicks and good sprinting isn't always achieved by lifting heavy weights. Sprinter Michael Johnson did very little heavy weightlifting, would spend max of 1 hour in the gym and did overall conditioning as opposed to isolated work, with the lunge being the most specific drill he did.

If I was the original poster, I'd get the miles on the clock by pounding the roads and do some complimentary work in the gym, get a simple core programme, maybe 4-5 exercises, so that its easy to fit in, like when you come back from a run, spend 20 mins on your core before having your shower.

In the gym, work the main muscle groups, 3 sets of 15-20 reps with short recoverys (30 secs). Depending on your gym you could ask staff for advice and even use machines until you build up your confidence.

Easygainer

...

p.pete wrote:

Why? Original poster suggests doing "light gym work" with the intention of developing their running, aiming to do a marathon. There must be hundreds of threads on this forum about muscle building, bulking up and size gain - they're not really relevant on this one though.

Clearly you're not getting the point I made. Weightlifting doesn't build muscle, it is merely a stimulus. Eating builds muscle. How you eat determines the size you gain, not the training you do.


The "sprint" finish that a long distance runner has is still going to be blown out of the water by a proper sprinter. I run long distances but I can still put in a strong finish after a 20km run and believe it or not I do some light upper body weights occasionally and absolutely none for my legs. For a faster finish I'd recommend cross-training e.g. soccer or football training and also running shorter distances at faster speeds.

Yeah it counts for very little but he's asking about doing weights to help with lifting. I don't see a set of 15 reps helping with endurance or strength, so if he weants to lift weights he might as well achieve something.



AGAIN - the original poster hasn't expressed an interest in putting on muscle, why presume it's what he wants? Definitely diet is important but for a long distance runner I'd suggest it's more likely to include lots of low fat carbs / starchy foods as opposed to high protein type foods which would be more useful for muscle growth.
Wrong again. By controlling the diet you determine how much or how little muscle you carry. My obvious point was, if you understood it, that by controlling the diet correctly you can lift yet not carry excessive size and still gain strength if desired

very good:rolleyes:
very clever indeed - for what would strength have to do with running. Indeed who needs muscle? How clever you are indeed.

Easygainer

Tingle wrote:

Paula Radcliffe, the greatest marathon runner of our generation, is renowned for her poor kick..

Does that include her Olympic legacy? You've been watching too much BBC

But seriously, I understand your point, but the exception doesn't define the norm. Take the men's 5k and 10k (maybe only 10k if you want long distance) - that Aussie guy keeps being left for dirt by the Ethipians to whom it comes down to a question of who the best sprinter is.

Again, on the Michael Johnson point, 1 hour is plenty in the gym - that's all I do, but again, he was a genetic freak - I don't see many people that muscular who lift for size.

I still don't know why upper body weights would be useful though as the first reply indicated... This is what the thread should be answering.

thirtyfoot

Having thought about it, Radcliffe is probably a bad example. She has a bad kick but probably works more than anyone on improving it. She does lift heavy weights and does a very strenous plyometrics regime, I read an article by Ger Hartmann once and he said they began working on strength to ensure she wasn't left for dead at races like she used to be. While her kick doesn't seem to have improved, everything else has so maybe her strength program is the way forward for marathoners?

I still believe for a debut marathoner that running is the key and that should be the focus. If you are going to do gym work let it be overall conditioning work and low/medium weights, if weights are to be used. If speed is a target, do that on the track or grass.

On the fast finishing Ethiopians, I doubt they got their kick from working out at Total Fitness in downtown Addis Ababa!! Though the Aussie guy, Craig Mottram, changed his training program a while back that included a lot of strength work and that has helped him be competitive with the africans, its probably genetics that stops him from beating the best of them.

mor

Hi all,
Thanks for all the advice…

Just some additional background…
I was never the sporty/fit type. I had hoped to run Dublin recently but events conspired against me back in April, so I took it easy during the summer but ran regularly. The last long race I’ve done was Cork-Cobh (15 miles) at the start of Oct. I think I did it in 2hr 5min. Also clocked up 20 miles on a few occasions. Since then I’ve taken it easy… So last week I decided I wanted to run Edinburgh in June… Belfast might be slightly early for me.

My current schedule is something like this…
Monday 5 miles – easy pace
Tuesday Speed – [1000m in 4 min + 3 min light jog] x 4.
Wednesday - 5 miles – easy pace
Thursday - 4 miles – fast pace + swimming
Friday - Long run +8 miles – reasonable pace
Saturday Rest
Sunday - 4 miles – good pace + 1 hr soccer

So last week I ran about 30 miles. I plan to increase than about 2 or so miles during the coming weeks mainly on the long run… I try to do a lot of mileage on track or grass. As for cross training, starting swimming tonight & play soccer maybe twice a week. I plan to enter a number of 10 milers and half during the coming months.

Just thought a session or so in the gym might be of additional benefit…
Also makes a change from running

Again thanks all
mor

Transform

Excellent excellent excellent!!!

Brillaint work and i am sure you will run a sub 3.30-3.45hr marathon when it comes around!

copacetic

looks good, keep an eye on the rest of your mileage as you up your long run, you want to increase everything in relative proportion and don't let your long run get to more that 50% of your mileage.

On your speed day, maybe try a few variations, anything from shorter harder intervals with more reps, yasso 800s, to hill running.
Hill running and long repeats like the ones you are doing are generally considered best for marathon training though.

You are looking in great shape with that schedule though, best of luck..

Good link from serpentine club about speedwork, those yasso 800s are really good, lot of info on web on them...
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/advice/karen/kh07.php

mor

Thanks for the link and the advice…

Also with speed work: every third Tuesday from now on I’ll be running a 3km race. I might remove one 1000’s session for hill work in the coming few weeks. Its just the initial thoughts of hill work didn’t appeal to me!

daveirl

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