Karma and God Intervening in everyday life

patzer117

Hi, I'm not sure if this is suited in the Christianity thread, but I'm a Christain and it's a question I have so...

Do you believe in Karma? Simple as. I never used to, but recently i've noticed people who aren't nice having bad luck and other people who are really nice having really good luck.

I guess the question could boil down to whether you believe God interferes/intervenes in our everyday lives, whether we have our own free will, or if any external force is at play.

My opinion is that God doesn't and hasn't ever, since Jesus, interfered with life on earth, but that there is some external force, something to do with nature that manages to balance out good and bad.

Anyway just wanted some opinions.

Patzer

Asiaprod

patzer117 wrote:

Do you believe in Karma? Simple as. I never used to, but recently i've noticed people who aren't nice having bad luck and other people who are really nice having really good luck.

Yes I do believe in Karma, but I understand it from a different perspective. Karma is a very deep subject and applies to previous lives, cause and effect, and good fortune in this life. It does not generally switch on and off. It is more viewed as under a given set of conditions, a person will react/receive in a predefined manner.

I guess the question could boil down to whether you believe God interferes/intervenes in our everyday lives, whether we have our own free will, or if any external force is at play.

If you believe in God, I am sure he does indeed intervene in your life. No matter what religion you follow, you always have free will.

My opinion is that God doesn't and hasn't ever, since Jesus, interfered with life on earth, but that there is some external force, something to do with nature that manages to balance out good and bad.

Well we have heard it said that only good people get good things. I trust my esteemed colleague Excelsior will be able to answer for you in a manner far more better than I could.

Excelsior

Esteemed by you alone Peter!

Panzer, Christianity and Karma can not be reconciled. I don't offer that as the biased prejudice of an evangelical Christian, but as something evident for all to see if we take a look at how the two systems work.

Karma, as Peter the expert on Buddhism has already alluded to, is a very deep subject. But for the rough purposes of opening remarks I think it fair to define it very crudely as "What goes around, comes around (Eventually)".

As Karma is to Buddhism, Grace is to Christianity. It is the engine that drives the belief forward. To understand Grace in fact, is to understand Christianity. It is supremely profound but as I've bludgeoned Buddhism, now I'll bludgeon my own faith by defining Grace as "You can't make the grade, so God makes it for you".

Karma is a system where you are rewarded or reprimanded based on your conduct in life. Grace is a system where everyone is rewarded in total contradiction to our failed lives. A Christian, by claiming to be a Christian, is rejecting implicitly the idea of Karma. Christianity says, "you do not get what you deserve. We can all get what we don't deserve- liberation from the continuing mistakes of our life and restored relationship with our Creator."

So I don't believe in Karma. I believe in Grace. If a Christian were to believe in Karma, it would look something like this:

"My relationship with God has been restored because of what I have done."

But that is totally opposed to the Grace of Christianity which goes:

"God loves you, not because of something you have done (or can be) but because of what he has done (and who he is)."

Christianity does believe that God intervenes in life. Actually, Christianity teaches that the whole of the universe is kept in existence ultimately (behind all the science bits ) by Jesus. And Jesus left us his counsellor, the Holy Spirit, who dwells in every Christian and walks in solidarity with them.

I don't think good and bad are kept in balance. I think that there are massive discrepancies between good and bad from place to place, time to time and person to person. A worse word than balance I couldn't imagine for the way evil affects the world. What cold comfort to the Tsunami victims who are preparing to commemerate the 1st anniversary of the death of their loved ones, "Sure life is tough for you, but it all balances out globally".

As I see it, good is stronger than bad and is going to come out victorious. The world is not hung in balance between dark and light but rather that because of Jesus and God's love for us, dark's back has been broken, the war has been won but isn't yet over. Battles still break out but victory is secured. And in the new regime of liberation, we are all welcome as citizens.

Man, I'm getting carried away with myself! It must be the cold. I'm off to have a cup of coffee. Proceed to take my silly thoughts apart! I hope they helped Panzer.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

I think it fair to define it very crudely as "What goes around, comes around (Eventually)".

I like that Ecelsior, I will use that definition myself. Thanks:)

pbsuxok1znja4r

"I don't believe in an interventionist God".
Or, I could put it this way - if someone has built a car, and then you go around driving that car, does the indicator flash because the creator has "intervened"? Not really. Does the low petrol light flash because he has "intervened"? It's all his doing to begin with, so he can't really "intervene" in the same sense some people believe.
It's not a great analogy, but that's what I believe.

Rev Hellfire

Depends on what you mean by intervene, if some force magically took control of the steering wheel then yes thats one form.
But there is another form of intervention, a passive one. Maybe its more like to use your example, god is on a radio station giving out traffic warnings. You have the choice to tune in and pick up those messages. And then if you so wish take steps to avoid a road issue.
You have free will, you can use that to free will to 'tune in' and then decide if you wish to act upon the message you receive. At least thats my understanding.

wolfsbane

Patzer117 said:

Do you believe in Karma? Simple as. I never used to, but recently i've noticed people who aren't nice having bad luck and other people who are really nice having really good luck.

I believe in the Biblical sort, Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. That often comes in this life, but not always. Sometimes the vilest of people spend their lives in ease and die peacefully in bed. And the kindest of peole suffer throughout their lives and are murdered by oppressors. But the Scripture is sure, for it speaks primarily of ultimate justice. God has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness. Every one will receive their just deserts. God says, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, Romans 12:20.

I guess the question could boil down to whether you believe God interferes/intervenes in our everyday lives, whether we have our own free will, or if any external force is at play.

My opinion is that God doesn't and hasn't ever, since Jesus, interfered with life on earth, but that there is some external force, something to do with nature that manages to balance out good and bad.

As to this life, the Bible is absolutely clear - God presently upholds all things by the word of His power; nothing happens without His permission; He is not the god of Deists, who starts it all off but does not intervene. He is the God of Theism, the God of the Bible, who works all things according to the counsel of His will, Ephesians 1:11.

Examples:

Birth of Christ
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Resurrection of Christ
Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.
5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Coming of the Spirit
Acts 2: 1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Conversion of Saul
Acts 9:3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

Death of Herod
Acts 12:21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them. 22 And the people kept shouting, “The voice of a god and not of a man!” 23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.

solas

excelsior wrote:

As Karma is to Buddhism, Grace is to Christianity.

I think it would be better phrased as "Dharma is to buddhism, as grace is to christianity."

Asiaprod

solas wrote:

I think it would be better phrased as "Dharma is to buddhism, as grace is to christianity."

Thats a tough call, Dharma as a meaning encompasses a lot more, Its more common meaning is "The Law" or "The Way". The word Karma more directly relates to ones condition in this life as a result of past actions. In other words Karma is a part of Dharma.
I have seen them both used. There are also many flavors of Bhuddism, from the very orthadox to the very new. I have found that Dharma tends to be used more in the orthadox branches, while Karma is used more frequently in the newer branches.

Asiaprod

Wolfsbane, please leave it at one bible quote will you.
Surly you can find a single quote that will get your point across. Its painfull being bombarded with so much heavy bold typing. I'm getting dizzy looking at it all. A single quote, if selected carefully. will have much more impact than an entire chapter of the Bible. Thanks.:)

wolfsbane

Apologies for the dizzy spells, Asiaprod.

I just didn't want anyone thinking I was depending on an isolated text snatched out of context. Perhaps I'll stick with one quotation and give refs. for any more.

Asiaprod

wolfsbane wrote:

Apologies for the dizzy spells, Asiaprod.

I just didn't want anyone thinking I was depending on an isolated text snatched out of context. Perhaps I'll stick with one quotation and give refs. for any more.

No problem, that would be cool. I poped an Asprin so dizzy spells are now down to too much hot whiskey:)

solas

asiaprod wrote:

Thats a tough call, Dharma as a meaning encompasses a lot more, Its more common meaning is "The Law" or "The Way".

which is why I think its more suitable in the context, especially in relation to the christian concept of grace.

Asiaprod

solas wrote:

which is why I think its more suitable in the context, especially in relation to the christian concept of grace.

Understood, I agree with your choice:)

bubonicus

Karma is simple.

If somebody does something bad, something bad will happen.

It is not a very deep or hard thing to understand. I think people don't want to accept it is that simple.

hairyheretic

How does karma come in if someone takes steps to make ammends for the bad they did?

Does karma effectviely cancel on a bad / good set of actions? Or would you receive bad followed by good in return?

Excelsior

Can I ask a really basic question? Who administers Karma?

bubonicus

To answer your basic question with a basic answer...

Nobody or nothing.

Karma is a word for action = reaction.

solas

while I'm sure its something your already aware of but for the purpose of this thread, Karma ([Sanskrit, deed, action that has consequences, karma. See kwer- in Indo-European Roots.]) is not administered insomuch as it is accrued (come about as a result of growth).

Asiaprod

solas wrote:

while I'm sure its something your already aware of but for the purpose of this thread, Karma ([Sanskrit, deed, action that has consequences, karma. See kwer- in Indo-European Roots.]) is not administered insomuch as it is accrued (come about as a result of growth).

Solas, I am impressed, you know a lot:) . It is indeed accrued, there is nobody to administer but oneself. That is why I said in the post earlier to a thread by Excelsior that I was draw to my belief because it gave me responsibility over my own life.

bubonicus; it is far from simple, it is very complex, I have studied it for 20 years and I only know a little about it:o You simplify it to much.:)

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

How does karma come in if someone takes steps to make ammends for the bad they did?

Does karma effectviely cancel on a bad / good set of actions? Or would you receive bad followed by good in return?

You must suffer for bad Karma, but recognising its bad Karma and realizing you did something bad to encounter it should then encourages you to do good, which in turn creates good Karma. The bad Karma only stays with you till you recognise it for what it is and take steps to change what ever that bad influence is you carry in you life. Then it dissipates. The key element to remember in this belief system is everything is cyclical. Hence, as Excelsior pointed out "What goes around comes around, eventually.

Excelsior

Call me all kinds of names because of my cultural background, but it sounds like a philosophical blank wall.

But I digress (into a topic that should be on Buddhism, not Christianity)...

LORDOFDOOM

I don't believe in God. I'm Agnostic. Yet for some reason, especially when I smoke weed, I believe in karma.
I wont kill a spider or a fly or anything because I'll be afraid that the karma will come back around and get me. It's a simple outlook, and it doesn't rule my life or anything, but it's always in the back of my head.

solas

I think christianity and buddhism are close in many respects, it shouldn't be too difficult to find a common understanding. Similar concepts, the words are just different.

[I'm catholic]

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

Call me all kinds of names because of my cultural background, but it sounds like a philosophical blank wall.

But I digress (into a topic that should be on Buddhism, not Christianity)...

Aw, would I call you names:)

bubonicus

Asiaprod: Life must be complex to make it worthwhile I guess.

quote:
"You must suffer for bad Karma, but recognising its bad Karma and realizing you did something bad to encounter it should then encourages you to do good, which in turn creates good Karma"

That's what I said!!!!

if you don't do anything bad in the first place there will alway's be good Karma..

Excelsior

I think Christianity bears similarities to any of the authentic and sincere spiritualities out there but I don't believe it can be "reconciled" with any of them. The heart of Christianity is in Grace which is a concept utterly absent from other religions.

Bono may not be the most accurate Christian theologian around, but he makes a lot of Christianity very easily understood for me. Here is his thoughts on Grace over Karma.

Rev Hellfire

bubonicus wrote:

if you don't do anything bad in the first place there will alway's be good Karma..

Would you not have to do some good to earn (if thats the correct idea) good karma. Not doing evil does not equal doing good, I would it imagine its the act coupled with intent which shifts the scales.

bubonicus

Karma is a notion. There are no scales. It's a guide to life in itself. The message of Karma is do no wrong and no wrong will be done to you. As long as everybody gets on board. that's the important part.

Imagine a world where everybody lived in peace. There would be no need for the word Karma

hairyheretic

And in a similar vein .. wyrd

DEFINITIONS

Wyrd: The word "Wyrd" is of Anglo-Saxon origin, and roughly corresponds to the concept of "karma" in Hinduism. Although wyrd can be personal it is often linked to whole families, tribes, and even races. Unlike Karma, it is not totally fixed. One can move within one's individual web of Wyrd in accord with the amount of consciousness one commands. The less conscious one is, the more one is subject to the seemingly random workings of Wyrd, in contrast to "orlog" which is impersonal and cannot be manipulated.
source: Northern Mysteries & Magick - Freya Aswynn

Rev Hellfire

Karma is a notion. There are no scales. It's a guide to life in itself. The message of Karma is do no wrong and no wrong will be done to you.

Interesting bubonicus I'd always assumed it was a carrot and stick thing.
Assuming what you say is true and I've reason to doubt you mind you, what motivation is there to actually do good, it strikes me as somewhat amoral philosophy which leads me to suspect I’m missing a key principle here.

Inaction is the key to a pleasant existence.

This surely I would have thought is at odds with Christian beliefs to reference the original topics point of reference.

bubonicus

As long as everybody gets on board. that's the important part.

You missed the above part of the post in my quote.....

Quote
" what motivation is there to actually do good, it strikes me as somewhat amoral philosophy which leads me to suspect I’m missing a key principle here. "

Why do you need motivation to do good?

Quote
"Inaction is the key to a pleasant existence."

How is not doing harm/evil(whatever you want to call it) equal to inaction.
A pleasent existence is what you make of it.

Quote
"This surely I would have thought is at odds with Christian beliefs to reference the original topics point of reference."

Yes it probably is.

Rev Hellfire

bubonicus wrote:

Why do you need motivation to do good?

You are ofcourse correct. I am perhaps to quick to assume at times that the nature of man is to do harm, yours is the better view. Something for me to reflect on I think.

Charis

patzer117 wrote:

Hi, I'm not sure if this is suited in the Christianity thread, but I'm a Christain and it's a question I have so...

I guess the question could boil down to whether you believe God interferes/intervenes in our everyday lives, whether we have our own free will, or if any external force is at play.

My opinion is that God doesn't and hasn't ever, since Jesus, interfered with life on earth, but that there is some external force, something to do with nature that manages to balance out good and bad.

Anyway just wanted some opinions.

Patzer

Patzer
You are asking a lot of good questions! Some that theologians continue to wrestle with. There are many varying viewpoints on the issue of free will. I personally believe in free will and I believe in God. I can say from personal experience and experiences of those close to me that I very much believe that God answers prayers and is directly involved with my life. I believe that He is an external force that is very present and were it not for him I would not be writing this note. I would say that my relationship with Him is a very spiritual one that is often hard to explain if a person has not ever experienced it.

I must ask though, if the above is your opinion why do you claim Christianity? If God just created the world, saw the problems, hen sent Jesus, and now has left it alone again I would be asking what kind of God is that? I would also be asking is God going to be involved again?

Well some more food for thought.

robindch

> If God just created the world, saw the problems, hen sent
> Jesus, and now has left it alone again I would be asking what
> kind of God is that?

A good question which was asked in a longer way a while back in an interview with Christian Voice, the outfit which threatened a cancer charity earlier in the year:

The deity which you worship appears to have deliberately created a universe in which He knew His crown of creation would upset Him in such a way as to necessitate His sacrificing Himself to Himself in order for a proportion of humanity to reconcile themselves with Him while the remainder suffer in His absence for eternity. How would you go about convincing people who find this scenario unlikely to be true?

Asiaprod

For me this conversation is missing one important ingredient. Karma goes hand in hand with the reincarnation, which puts it completely at odds with Christianity. Quite frankly, to view Karma without looking at this question of reincarnation really makes Karma hard to understand. Karma is also has an accumulation component. I think Grace in Christianity also has? When we (believers in what I follow) look at karma we see a reflection of our past lives, not just the one directly before this one, but stretching back who knows how far to when the original action (good or bad) caused the Karma. Karma is in direct consequence to Cause and Effect, the underlying principle behind Hinduism, Buddhism and a lot of other -isims. Thanks to my belief in Karma, I can actually live in the past, present and future. How? Easy, my current life condition or Karma is a reflection of my past life condition, My current life condition is also an indicator of what my life condition in my next reincarnation will be like. This gives me the power to change the future, my personal future, for the better by making changes now in this life.

bubonicus, my apologies, I did in deed misunderstand what you said

Hairyheretic, thanks for that lead "And in a similar vein .. wyrd" I will deffo check that one out.

bubonicus

Rev. Hellfire :

Quote
"You are ofcourse correct. I am perhaps to quick to assume at times that the nature of man is to do harm, yours is the better view. Something for me to reflect on I think. "

That is the spirit. Always reflect, Humanity is a developing creature. they still have a long way to go before everybody can understand that good(god) is inside us. People need to look inside them selves I think to find the inner good(god). Having an external Good(god) I find, gives people an excuse to do evil(devil)


Asiaprod:

No need to apologies. We are having a discussion. You are right with your point on reincarnation. The religions that believe in Karma is based on reincarnation. But I still think my idea stands.

I think that all the "isms" religions put living a good life at the fore front of their belief systems. Karma is a way to understand and project a way of life for people to follow. So in the end everybody will be good and we could all live in harmony.

Asiaprod

bubonicus wrote:

I think that all the "isms" religions put living a good life at the fore front of their belief systems. Karma is a way to understand and project a way of life for people to follow. So in the end everybody will be good and we could all live in harmony.

I can agree 100% with that sentiment

Asiaprod

Excelsior, as Solas pointed out "I think christianity and buddhism are close in many respects, it shouldn't be too difficult to find a common understanding. Similar concepts, the words are just different.

THis is exactly the the comment my Sensei keeps making. If he were to pick the religion that most emulates our belief it would be Christianity. We have a lot more in common than you think. I grant you grace is a different concept which we do not have, but we do have many similarities and a lot in common

Excelsior

Absolutely Asiaprod. But while there are many similarities I think the core of the 2 belief systems are at odds. That doesn't mean that Christians can't learn from Buddhism, or any arrogant nonsense like that but rather that Grace (which doesn't accumulate because it is entirely sufficient from the first moment you accept it) is facing Karma down and Karma Grace.

They offer 2 competing views of the world. One says that your actions determine your outcome in a world without a God and the other says that there is a God who personally created and loves you and his action can determine your outcome. Reincarnation, the flawed nature in Man, the approach to the Arts, all these large differences flow out of this core disagreement.

I am not saying that Buddhism is worthless and that Christianity has every truth wrapped up. I am not saying that Buddhists and Christians don't have common cause on many issues. What I am suggesting however is that there is no path that leaves you half Buddhist and half Christian.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

They offer 2 competing views of the world.

Agreed

What I am suggesting however is that there is no path that leaves you half Buddhist and half Christian.

Again, agreed, but don"t be too surprised if you meet on path:)