[PR] M4 Kinnegad-Enfield-Kilcock open 12 December

Victor

The M4 Kinnegad-Enfield-Kilcock Motorway is due to open on the 12th December.

http://www.nra.ie/

Maskhadov

only a few days now. The project was estimated to be completed in 2006. :):)

Mailman

may be open on 12th but eazypass won't work until second quarter of next year at least.

Maskhadov

Still better than no motorway Is the kinegad / Kilbeggan / Athlone phase still set to open 2007 ?

SeanW

Timetabled to open the day after Irish Rail fux up the Sligo/Longford service beyond repair. Nice.

Lord Nikon

A toll on the motorway, bah humbug. i though I was paying RoadTax to pay for new roads and the repair of old ones?

cullenswood

neuromancer wrote:

A toll on the motorway, bah humbug. i though I was paying RoadTax to pay for new roads and the repair of old ones?

Use the N4 then, if you don't want to pay the toll. No one is forcing you to use it.

D'Peoples Voice

Mailman wrote:

may be open on 12th but eazypass won't work until second quarter of next year at least.

I know, I got an email from Easypass this morning, I'm gutted.:(

it reminds me of the hassle CIE have in adopting the smart card used by mortons coaches/LUAS.
Why could they not have been wonking on this technology while the road was being built? They started building that road when?

ad hoc

Well, according to the Irish Times today, Eurolink have fitted the new toll plaza with the latest equipment which meets European interoperability standards for electronic toll payments.

NTR (M1, EastLink, Westlink) use outdated, and non-interoperable, software.

Tom Dunne

cullenswood wrote:

Use the N4 then, if you don't want to pay the toll. No one is forcing you to use it.

Toll grumbling aside, most people seem to be paying it. There is a noticable drop in the traffic through Enfield this afternoon.

murphaph

tom dunne wrote:

Toll grumbling aside, most people seem to be paying it. There is a noticable drop in the traffic through Enfield this afternoon.

I thought it was free for the first 2 weeks to get people used to it (that's what a bloke in work told me so may not be true!).

Lord Nikon

cullenswood wrote:

Use the N4 then, if you don't want to pay the toll. No one is forcing you to use it.

Did I say i wasn't going to pay it. I'm merely highlighting the fact that our "RoadTax" is spend on something other than our roads. If it was, we wouldn't have to pay for new roads, since their getting my money already.

KeithMur

Firstly I am totally against tolling roads. They design them for maximum profits rather than traffic distribution (only the enfield slip-roads off this motorway(with tolls on them aswell)) But I drove home through the toll paid my 2.40 and kept driving all the way to Mullingar. No slow down on the 5k stretch, enfield lights, clonard or through kinnegad. It actually annoys me how great it is, now when i'm on the way home i'll be checking my pockets for loose change that i think i won't miss. It is a pity the country is heading towards complete PPP road networks, but how much would this have cost to build ourselves with loans from europe 600m over 30 years isn't that much considering this toll will undoubtably increase year on year.

But over all getting in twenty minutes early everyday could well be worth it.

Metrobest

I don't get why people are so against tolls. Most other countries in Europe have them and the charges are sustantially higher than Ireland's. It takes six euro to get across the newly-opened Milaeu viaduct in France. A 30-minute trip from Barcelona to Sitges costs €4.75. In terms of distance covered, the toll prices in Ireland represent good value for money.There is no justification for objecting to a €2.40 toll which will take you all the way from Dublin to Ballinasloe when the other sections of the route are opened. Demanding "free" motorways is the same as demanding free public transport - it defies logic!

And don't forget there is a choice: if you have some ideological objection to road tolls then use the the old N4. You'll have plenty of time to ponder the evils of capitalism while stuck behind a tractor on a dangerous country road.

Maskhadov

Im in favour of tolls as well. I know people will be still paying for them in years to come but its a good way to deliver infastructure quickly. it will also be a bit of a stick to get people on to public transport

icdg

Did I see on the news tonight... Enfield is junction 8 (should it not be 5)??? The saga of the crazy Irish junction number continues, where are Js5-7?

Is the short section of N6 included in the scheme actually classified as M6, incidently?

Nice to see they are using regular motorway signage rather than the crazyness we've seen on the M50 South Eastern Motorway recently...

Tom Dunne

icdg wrote:

Did I see on the news tonight... Enfield is junction 8 (should it not be 5)???

I'll have a look in the morning.

Mailman

If you buy in bulk the cost to commute is 10% lower - how generous.

Route numbering might be correct once the grade seperated interchanges at lucan, palmerstown etc... are built and then the road will be motorway most of way in to the city centre.

And now for the rant:
Is anyone here arguing that the M50 charge of €1.80 to get from Palmerstown to Tallaght is good value.
The prices are pitched low to begin with to get consumer buy-in to the initiative; there are no promises that they'll be kept low. They haven't been kept low so far. The initial figure quoted was €1.75 before VAT was even mentioned as being made obligatory even though the government knew it was coming. End Consumers don't get the VAT back either.
It would have been nice to know about VAT at the time they were looking for public submissions and that it would cost €2.50 within three weeks of opening.

The villages of Moyvalley, Longwood and the town of Edenderry aren't well served by it as they are a good distance away from the nearest junction.

The €2.50 is only giving you the extra 16 miles of motorway as the crow flys according to my map.

The N4 alternate route will not be a viable alternative in the long term now that it is a road of lesser importance; planning permission for further construction of housing and business along the N4 route will now be allowed.

I travelled from Heidelberg to Paris last year for the Ireland\France match - as far as I remember the toll cost was €13 each way and that was for hundreds of kilometres of top class autoroute not 16 miles of motorway with one junction in the middle.
Germany do motorway but they don't do tolling - the public simply won't accept it and they won't accept being told that "everyone else is doing it".

I know when I'm being conned and tolling is a con. No new taxes!
It's the disingenuousness of the current regime that irks me most.

TheBigLebowski

Mailman wrote:

And now for the rant:
Is anyone here arguing that the M50 charge of €1.80 to get from Palmerstown to Tallaght is good value.

You don't go over the toll bridge to get from Palmerstown to Tallaght.

TheBigLebowski

Surely tolling is a good idea as it's the people who will actually use the road are the ones who will pay for it, rather than people who live nowhere near a motorway and will probably never use one paying it through road tax. If the government takes on more big jobs like this, then road tax will inevitably go up for everyone. So I say toll them all!

Mailman

"Demanding "free" motorways is the same as demanding free public transport - it defies logic! "

Who said anything about them being free:
We pay to use roads; Motor Tax, Insurance levy, VRT, VAT, VAT on VRT, VAT on all consumables. VAT on NCT, higher purchase prices because of the presence of VRT and higher BIK payments because of VRT too.
The roads are far from free.

Who said we demanded motorway:
I'm personally of the opinion that the amounts of motorway proposed may be excessive and runs counter to our spatial strategy.
Upgrading the existing roads to dual carraigway or double lane with ocassional overtaking lanes may be better in many cases - that's the opinion formed from the roads need survey anyway.
But whether we want it or not we've got motorway with practically no junctions because the PPP scheme is geared to generate revenue for the private company and the government.

spacetweek

icdg wrote:

Did I see on the news tonight... Enfield is junction 8 (should it not be 5)??? The saga of the crazy Irish junction number continues, where are Js5-7?

Perhaps they're planning on a whole load of new junctions in the future? Can't see why though, there's not much between Kilcock and Enfield.

icdg wrote:

Is the short section of N6 included in the scheme actually classified as M6, incidently?

Yea, the RTE article kept referring to the "M6", which doesn't exist. Odd.

Mailman

Palmerstown, no and you are correct.
Undermined my owned reasoned arguement with that freudian slip there.
Insert Blanchardstown for Palmerstown
Or Blanchardstown to Liffey Valley.
Or Castleknock to Clondalkin
Or palmerstown to Blanchardstown.

Friday morning last saw a crash at Polly Hops between a peugeot 306 and 307.
This morning saw a crashed Octavia at same junction at the Polly Hops. These accidents wouldn't be happening if the M50 wasn't being tolled and the back road to Lucan wasn't being used as a rat run to avoid the M50 queues.

Did I mention the back of my car was driven in to at the toll plaza at the M50.
Do I blame the driver who crashed in to me or the toll booth - I blame the toll booth.

murphaph

spacetweek wrote:

Yea, the RTE article kept referring to the "M6", which doesn't exist. Odd.

It does exist. It's even signposted as M6 heading eastbound from the N6 where the new scheme leads inescapably to the M4 so it has to be M6.

thatkindofgirl

I felt exactly the same way as I zipped home in no time flat, from Maynooth to Mullingar. Happily for my wallet, I'm being transferred shortly to our Mullingar office (yipppee!) and will no longer need the motorway for workstuff.

I most certainly won't miss the suicide junction from Kilcock out onto the n4.

KeithMur wrote:

No slow down on the 5k stretch, enfield lights, clonard or through kinnegad. It actually annoys me how great it is,
...
But over all getting in twenty minutes early everyday could well be worth it.

Lord Nikon

KeithMur wrote:

But over all getting in twenty minutes early everyday could well be worth it.

If you do a 5-day return journey week, every week, is it worth the 100euro that could be used to pay your rent or mortgage?

impr0v

The 'M6' bit refers to a roughly 2km stretch between the M4/M6 diverge to the point where it will tie in to the Kinnegad to Athlone Scheme, which will be dual carraigeway rather than motorway.

There were 1600 vehicles through the plaza in the first two hours.

Lord Nikon

TheBigLebowski wrote:

then road tax will inevitably go up for everyone.

Doesn't road tax go up every year, regardless?

Lord Nikon

Metrobest wrote:

Demanding "free" motorways is the same as demanding free public transport - it defies logic!

Public transport should be free in this country, well the bus services should be. They should should charge for it if it works, not if it doesn't.

mysterious

The M4/n6 slips can anyone send a pic or what kind of a junction is it?

Like is the N6 mainline bound with N4 off ramps

or N4 mainline bound and exit for the N6?

Lord Nikon

Metrobest wrote:

In terms of distance covered, the toll prices in Ireland represent good value for money..

You obviously don't use the Westlink toll bridge. The distance covered to cross the Liffey Valley is less than half a kilometre, and it costs more than the Dundalk bypass Motorway, which covers a greater distance.

More vehicals use the Westlink than the Dundalk toll road, and it's more expensive BECAUSE more people use it.

murphaph

mysterious wrote:

The M4/n6 slips can anyone send a pic or what kind of a junction is it?

Like is the N6 mainline bound with N4 off ramps

or N4 mainline bound and exit for the N6?

The mainline is the M4 and the 'diverge' is the N6. Pics courtessy of CSD over on SABRE.

Signage for N6 split
Gantry at the M4/N6 split

mysterious

Great pics thanks a mill murphaph.

D'Peoples Voice

Can we make the debate about PPP's a sticky,
and then delete every post complaining about tolls from every other post and put them there.
Just for once, I'd love if people would stop bringing up the tired argument over tolls once a new road is built. It's as if people believe that if they complain about it enough, things will change.

Just like Junction 8 on the M50, things don't change.
PPP's will remain as long as the Government uses up over €12bn on health, over €10bn on education and over €12bn on social welfare and gives only €1-€1.5 bn to transport, including wages to the people in the DOT!

Maskhadov

Here D'Peoples Voice. Any economy growing only spends a certain amount on infastructure no matter what country your in. Its usually a lot less than health or education and if it were the other way around it would be all wrong.

icdg

So judging from the pictures above, the M6 only exists in the eastbound direction...we've just invented the concept of a motorway that only goes in one direction. At least the similar M9 goes in both directions...

I'm guessing if there are missing junction numbers they might take the opportuinity of renumbering the existing 2a, 3, and 4 junctions. Or maybe not..

murphaph

icdg wrote:

So judging from the pictures above, the M6 only exists in the eastbound direction...we've just invented the concept of a motorway that only goes in one direction.

Yes, it's our very own pathetic motorway, alng with the M32 (which only appears on documentation and is not even signed).

icdg wrote:

I'm guessing if there are missing junction numbers they might take the opportuinity of renumbering the existing 2a, 3, and 4 junctions. Or maybe not..

It seems they are going to renumber the road to begin at the M50 and they will need new junction numbers for the M50 interchange, maybe the deadman's Inn/Liffey Valley exit, Woodies interchange and Nexcastle Road interchange (when built).

Bogger77

icdg wrote:

So judging from the pictures above, the M6 only exists in the eastbound direction...we've just invented the concept of a motorway that only goes in one direction. At least the similar M9 goes in both directions...

Not really that strange, or unusual.

There ceases to be a motorway, once you leave the M4, so this is correct. On joining the new road, you are on a motorway, about to join another, hence the designation. This occurs in multiple locations in the UK.

Sounds like knocking for the sake of knocking.

BrianD

murphaph wrote:

The mainline is the M4 and the 'diverge' is the N6. Pics courtessy of CSD over on SABRE.

Signage for N6 split
Gantry at the M4/N6 split

Will they ever learn how to do overhead signage?? Again this one gives the impression that traffic to one destination must use the overtaking lane. Then there's the signage for the N6 in green. I dunno, who pays these guys? Oh, that will be me ...

murphaph

Bogger77 wrote:

There ceases to be a motorway, once you leave the M4, so this is correct. On joining the new road, you are on a motorway, about to join another, hence the designation.

You're only leaving a motorway because the stretch of motorway grade N6 between the M4/N6 split and the next interchange (current N6 dual section teminus) is not legally a motorway but seeing as it is built to m-way spec and can only be reached by driving along the M4 (another m-way) then the logical thing would have been to sign the short stretch in both diections as far as the next interchange (the current terminus of the newly dualled N6) should be M6.

murphaph

BrianD wrote:

Will they ever learn how to do overhead signage?? Again this one gives the impression that traffic to one destination must use the overtaking lane. Then there's the signage for the N6 in green. I dunno, who pays these guys? Oh, that will be me ...

Erm, the sign is fine apart from the green patching for the N6 Brian. It doesn't tell you to move into the overtaking lane for Westport, it says both Sligo and Westport can be reached in either lane.

Bogger77

murphaph wrote:

You're only leaving a motorway because the stretch of motorway grade N6 between the M4/N6 split and the next interchange (current N6 dual section teminus) is not legally a motorway but seeing as it is built to m-way spec and can only be reached by driving along the M4 (another m-way) then the logical thing would have been to sign the short stretch in both diections as far as the next interchange (the current terminus of the newly dualled N6) should be M6.

But it's not legally a m-way, then it can't be blue sign. QED

BrianD

murphaph wrote:

Erm, the sign is fine apart from the green patching for the N6 Brian. It doesn't tell you to move into the overtaking lane for Westport, it says both Sligo and Westport can be reached in either lane.

Motorway signs are always blue in colur even if they are indicating a non m-way road.

The signage lacks clarity. For Joe Bloggs sitting in the outside lane at 100K's he'll see the sign and say "I'm off to westport" and stay in that lane. The text should run horizontally eg.:

M4 Sligo, ...
(N5) Westport ....


It seems that the NRA are unwilling to use the signage used by are near neighbours. They want to create their own designs and badly I might add.

Metrobest

Mailman wrote:

I travelled from Heidelberg to Paris last year for the Ireland\France match - as far as I remember the toll cost was €13 each way and that was for hundreds of kilometres of top class autoroute not 16 miles of motorway with one junction in the middle.
Germany do motorway but they don't do tolling - the public simply won't accept it and they won't accept being told that "everyone else is doing it".
.

I'm not sure which route you took, but I don't think there would have been zero tolls on the Dutch, German or Belgian section of that autoroute - correct me if I'm wrong. The €13 would have been from the French border to Paris. On a price per kilometre basis, you pay *a lot* more in France and Spain on tolled roads. And furthermore, you're tolled to discourage unneccessary car use, something we should all bear in mind given the declining environment.

Okay, so Germany doesn't do tolling. But the autobahns were built during the reign of ADOLF HITLER. If Germany were building a network of motorways today, do you think Merkel & Co would be funding it out of the exchequer? I doubt it.

Mailman

Reply to metrobest
Heidelberg is on the west side of germany and borders France.
border of Germany to Paris is a long, long way. Four hours at 130kmph most of the way. 543km.

During my stay in Germany in travelled all around the place and saw hundreds of kilometres of Motorway being rebuilt.
Motorway everywhere: north south east and west, climbing mountain ranges with your ears popping as you climb and spanning valleys.

Hitler may have built them over 60 years ago but the motorways he built have been improved upon greatly in the intervening period and are a modern wonder but still are not tolled. Is this done at the expense of public transport - no, the tram system in heidelberg was brilliant and the train system in Germany especially around Frankfurt is state of the art.

impr0v

icdg wrote:

So judging from the pictures above, the M6 only exists in the eastbound direction...we've just invented the concept of a motorway that only goes in one direction.

It exists in both directions.

murphaph wrote:

You're only leaving a motorway because the stretch of motorway grade N6 between the M4/N6 split and the next interchange (current N6 dual section teminus) is not legally a motorway but seeing as it is built to m-way spec and can only be reached by driving along the M4 (another m-way) then the logical thing would have been to sign the short stretch in both diections as far as the next interchange (the current terminus of the newly dualled N6) should be M6.

It is legally a motorway.

Tom Dunne

Metrobest wrote:

And furthermore, you're tolled to discourage unneccessary car use, something we should all bear in mind given the declining environment.

This really annoys me. If we are to be discouraged from using cars, what option have we? I live in Enfield. If I am going into the city center, I have the choice of one train a day. If I choose the bus, I have slightly more choice. However, I don't work in the city center, therefore public transport will only get me to where I work if I don't mind getting in around 11:00am.

I have no option.

/end rant

Slightly OT, but from casual observation, commuters appear to be avoiding the new M4/M6 motorway. I was on the road at 6:30am and there was the usual stream of traffic.

murphaph

Bogger77 wrote:

But it's not legally a m-way, then it can't be blue sign. QED

Ok, answer me this, why is it not legally a motorway? (as it is built to m-way spec and cannot be accessed except by driving from another m-way, namely the M4 westbound). And in any case, patching should never be used on m-way signage so the N6 sign should still be blue.

murphaph

BrianD wrote:

Motorway signs are always blue in colur even if they are indicating a non m-way road.

Agreed, that's the bit I originally agreed with you about btw

BrianD wrote:

The signage lacks clarity. For Joe Bloggs sitting in the outside lane at 100K's he'll see the sign and say "I'm off to westport" and stay in that lane.

Personally I'd disagree and say the sign is quite clear that either lane will brig you to either Sligo or Westport, but people in this country are rubbish at diving, reading signs etc. so maybe you're right.

BrianD wrote:

The text should run horizontally eg.:

M4 Sligo, ...
(N5) Westport ....


It seems that the NRA are unwilling to use the signage used by are near neighbours. They want to create their own designs and badly I might add.

Our near neighbours do it exactly as the NRA have done it in this instance (apart from the dodgy green patching). See here for an example. You can clearly see in that shot from th M1 that the destinations read horizontally until space runs out and then a new line is begun underneath. The only improvement they might have made on the M4 sign is to leave the (N5) out of it altogether as it is superfluous to your needs as if you are foreign you should have a map and know the N5 branches off the N4 and if you know the road you don't need to be told this.

murphaph

impr0v wrote:

It exists in both directions.



It is legally a motorway.

Maybe you could expand a little? For example, if it exists as a m-way in both directions, why is it signed N6 at the split and has a 100km/h limit like any national route?

Are you claiming it's only legally a m-way because the end of m-way restrictions sign is absent at the split or something?

impr0v

murphaph wrote:

Maybe you could expand a little? For example, if it exists as a m-way in both directions, why is it signed N6 at the split and has a 100km/h limit like any national route?

Are you claiming it's only legally a m-way because the end of m-way restrictions sign is absent at the split or something?

Go here and download map number 4, you'll see that the land acquired for the section in question was acquired under a motorway order (the blue hatching) rather than the more common compulsory purchase order (grey).

It's built to motorway spec, the speed limit is imposed because of the junction. There are two lower speed limits around the toll plaza, 50kph and 80kph though it's still legally a motorway.