Smith machine - Squats?

homerjk

hi,

I've always been told that squats are one of the best excercises to do for an overall compound excercise. I have always used the smith machine for doing them.
however i really badly did the ligaments in my ankle and was out for quite a while. i was finally back in the gym last night doing my weights session for the first time since my ankle felt better. The smith machine was being used by some dude who was taking serious recovery time in between lifts so i said bugger it ill just do free squats. however i then realised (mid lift!) that i cannot go as far down without my ankle getting quite sore so my back tended to bend a bit to try and compensate and get down far enough. by the time i had finished the set my back was killing me and still was after the session until today it doesnt feel too bad.
I didnt pass much remarks on it as i knew i had been bending my back a bit so i just said to myself ill make sure and do it on the smiths machine the next time. however i just did a quick search of the boards archives and i see loads of people saying to NEVER use the smiths machine for squats as it gives you bad form and here was me thinking the exact opposite by thinking it gave me good form!

is it really that bad or is this just something that everyone has latched onto?
if it is, has anyone any recommendations for another compound excercise for me, because with the way my ankle is, free weight squats are out the window, which is a pity because i like squats. I've been to physio as many times as he wants and he said we're finished now and has bascially given my ankle the all clear and just said its a matter of letting it get back to full strength.
if anyone knows any decent sets im already doing bench press, lat pull downs and leg presses in the session, so ideally i would like another lower body excercise to substitute the squat.

sorry for the long post!

poobum

look there realy is no compound exercise like the bench! maby deadlifts but that to uses ur back! if its a lack of strength in you back then id say use the free rack! just lower the weight! you will build it all back up! also id throw some deadlifts in there to! just next few times you go have someone there who knows the correct technique to make sure you do it right! if you dont have right technique you could realy hurt yourself! have sumone there like a spotter! and lower the weight! best thing to do in my opinion! also i find you can always lift more on machines then free! for example on machines my 6 rep max bench is 100 with the normal bar ist 90 and with dumbells its 35's which total to 70! big dirrerences! and free weights are better! they build up stabaliser muscles!

Mr E

poobum - Is the full stop key broken on your keyboard?
Either that, or you are very excitable.....

hardtrainer

poobum wrote:

look there realy is no compound exercise like the bench! maby deadlifts but that to uses ur back! if its a lack of strength in you back then id say use the free rack! just lower the weight! you will build it all back up! also id throw some deadlifts in there to! just next few times you go have someone there who knows the correct technique to make sure you do it right! if you dont have right technique you could realy hurt yourself! have sumone there like a spotter! and lower the weight! best thing to do in my opinion! also i find you can always lift more on machines then free! for example on machines my 6 rep max bench is 100 with the normal bar ist 90 and with dumbells its 35's which total to 70! big dirrerences! and free weights are better! they build up stabaliser muscles!

Did this answer the original question at all? It doesn't look like it to me...

Squatting is best done in a squat cage, but since it seems like a lot of the gyms in dublin don't have these, a squat rack is the next best option. The smith has it's uses, but they are limited. Some people advocate them for some exercises, particularly if you are recovering from injury and want the added safety and confidence. The problem with your ankle should go, but you should really concentrate on lots of stretching for it to regain it's full range of motion. Also, perhaps try squatting just the bar, or even nothing at all until you build up the full use of your ankle.

It's possible that if you've only ever used the smith machine for squats that you don't actually know how to get the form right without the added support of the smith. Get someone who knows what they're doing to go through the form with you and perfect that, without any weight, before trying to push you ankle into handling a weight that you think you can handle.

As for substituting the squats, there really is no good substitute for them. Leg press, leg extension and all the other machines really don't come close to the squat.

Hope that helps

kazzer

Do not use the smith machine for squats. Reason? The smith machine works in a fixed line of movement, which puts your body into a fixed groove which may not be natural to you and cause injury over the long term. Intead as mentioned use the squat rack or power rack if available. Leg press is no squat, but a decent substitute.

look there realy is no compound exercise like the bench!

The bench is no squat and never will be.

PJG

hardtrainer wrote:

The problem with your ankle should go, but you should really concentrate on lots of stretching for it to regain it's full range of motion. Also, perhaps try squatting just the bar, or even nothing at all until you build up the full use of your ankle.

Get someone who knows what they're doing to go through the form with you and perfect that, without any weight, before trying to push you ankle into handling a weight that you think you can handle.

As for substituting the squats, there really is no good substitute for them. Leg press, leg extension and all the other machines really don't come close to the squat.

Exactly.

Squats are one of the best exercises but only when done right. Form is so import. I have seen lots people injure their knees and backs with this one. All because they sacrifice form for getting extra weight on the bar or pushing out a few extra reps.

As mentioned above I always perform my first set with no weight to get my form 100%. This is very import for you as you need to build up your full range of movement.

Form is king ….

RPGGAMER

i would advice against using the smith machine for most movements. for all aforementioned reasons and more. However, in my experience and knowledge strength is needed in the lower back and entire posterior chain for squatting. The most common problem i see is the pelvis and lumbar/ssacral spine flexing or rounding when the trainee hits a good depth. now depth is needed in the squat for longterm knee stability and for max thigh muscle work. reverse hyperextension, back extensions, good mornings, romanian deadlifts should be staples for any squatter. there are books written on these subjects so if you want more detail on any aspect let me know.

RPGGAMER

two coaching points for squatting



With the bar on the traps sit back into squat position to appropriate depth*
this keeps the heels down,
minimises knee shear forces
Allows recruitment of all thigh musculature
*based on needs/capabilities of athlete

Keep Chest up and eyes focused at upward angle
This keeps optimal and safest posture with proper lumbar curve

incisor71

kazzer wrote:

Do not use the smith machine for squats. Reason? The smith machine works in a fixed line of movement, which puts your body into a fixed groove which may not be natural to you and cause injury over the long term. Intead as mentioned use the squat rack or power rack if available. Leg press is no squat, but a decent substitute.

So if a Smith Machine is the only thing available, it's time to find a new gym?

(Even on a Smith Machine the squat is scary enough - I couldn't imagine using a free barbell, especially not when training alone, which is 90% of the time.) {Edit: I can only attribute this fear to inexperience, it is not my intention to cast aspersions on the exercise itself.}

RPGGAMER

incisor71 wrote:

So if a Smith Machine is the only thing available, it's time to find a new gym?

(Even on a Smith Machine the squat is scary enough - I couldn't imagine using a free barbell, especially not when training alone, which is 90% of the time.) {Edit: I can only attribute this fear to inexperience, it is not my intention to cast aspersions on the exercise itself.}

i'd say definately yes. what area are you in and i think i could direct you to a good one.

RPGGAMER

incisor71 wrote:

So if a Smith Machine is the only thing available, it's time to find a new gym?

(Even on a Smith Machine the squat is scary enough - I couldn't imagine using a free barbell, especially not when training alone, which is 90% of the time.) {Edit: I can only attribute this fear to inexperience, it is not my intention to cast aspersions on the exercise itself.}

UL gym or Tommy dillons in southhill for funtional training or maybe jjbs if fancy lights, pretty machines and shaping take your fancy..

incisor71

RPGGAMER wrote:

UL gym or Tommy dillons in southhill for funtional training or maybe jjbs if fancy lights, pretty machines and shaping take your fancy..

Hmmmh, I'm currently going to Grove Island in Corbally and I live on the Ennis Rd (highly convenient as work is in Shannon) so I guess that leaves either JJB or UL Arena.

Getting through the town to Shannon after a morning session is going to be a bitch, but I can't have it every way! But I shouldn't disasterise ahead of time, I won't be starting to go to either place until March, due to poor cash flow.

Many thanks for that RPGGAMER.

homerjk

thanks for all the replies guys.
think i will just take the advice of lowering the weights and try and get my ankle back to scratch.

incisor71

homerjk wrote:

thanks for all the replies guys.
think i will just take the advice of lowering the weights and try and get my ankle back to scratch.

I didn't mean to commandeer the thread, btw, apologies if it seemed otherwise.

dudara

The Smith Machine is quite dangerous and should be avoided. It uses an unnatural range of movement, and quite frankly if that was all a gym had to offer, I'd leave and look for a new one.

kazzer

So if a Smith Machine is the only thing available, it's time to find a new gym?

(Even on a Smith Machine the squat is scary enough - I couldn't imagine using a free barbell, especially not when training alone, which is 90% of the time.) {Edit: I can only attribute this fear to inexperience, it is not my intention to cast aspersions on the exercise itself.}

Thats a pity. Alot of gyms these days lack the best equipment like power racks, squat racks, etc. The gym I use only has a smith and one squat rack. If you cannot get to another gym, the leg press and deadlift could be your best solution for leg/lower back work. But do not use the smith machine for squats

poobum

kazzer wrote:

Do not use the smith machine for squats. Reason? The smith machine works in a fixed line of movement, which puts your body into a fixed groove which may not be natural to you and cause injury over the long term. Intead as mentioned use the squat rack or power rack if available. Leg press is no squat, but a decent substitute.



The bench is no squat and never will be.

ok i ment to type squat and bench!! or else this statement makes no sense! lol sorry! and yeh there is a full stop button i just like those better!!!!(not to you some other guy didnt like my exclamation marks)
ok and i wouldnt use the smith machine as you can use it without auctually doing the proper technique! you can use a similar one but it isnt always right! if you dont know the right one and try to use a rack you could realy hurt yourself! plus the rack builds up more stabaliser muscles! so its hitting more muscles!
as for my origional post i can see flaws in it myself...i wrote it in a bit of a rush! sorry!
squats are the best compound exercise i know of! cage is best!(my opinion) all decent gyms should have one!
but my origional post does answer his querys about is the smith machine can be awful for technique!!

joc_06

if you're serious about training in anything you have to squat with a free bar with good technique. Stay away from machines full stop.

As a note i hit a new PR in squat last week. 210kg raw squat to parallel @ 81.3kg BW. 3x BW coming soon, then its bar bending time. ha ha

RPGGAMER

joc_06 wrote:

if you're serious about training in anything you have to squat with a free bar with good technique. Stay away from machines full stop.

As a note i hit a new PR in squat last week. 210kg raw squat to parallel @ 81.3kg BW. 3x BW coming soon, then its bar bending time. ha ha

that is a great squat at that bodyweight! i'm going doing a 230kg raw now and getting a titan squat suit soon and hopefully hit 250-260 in it. Do you train suited ever to bring your raw no.s up? also i hope you're competing with those stats as its such a waste if you're not.

joc_06

compete in what? i didnt even know there was comps in ireland. plus my dead is only about 180 (kills my back so i never do it) and bench is a measly 115kg if even that as i rarely do it (never have a spotter)
suits? I dont think so. im not a powerlifter. I only did the squat for a laugh to see how much i could do. normally i do a2g squats. still havent broken 175kg with those...
whats you bw?

incisor71

RPGGAMER wrote:

that is a great squat at that bodyweight! i'm going doing a 230kg raw now

I was going to ask if I could observe your technique (in person) for sustaining such a huge mass, but I think I'll refrain for, ummh, another two years - you're eons ahead of my game!!

RPGGAMER

my bodyweight is 115kg! so i am just about at double bodyweight:( you are closing at three time bodyweight! your deadlift has major potensial i'd say. if you are interested in fixing the back problem let me know. by pm.

RPGGAMER

incisor71 wrote:

I was going to ask if I could observe your technique (in person) for sustaining such a huge mass, but I think I'll refrain for, ummh, another two years - you're eons ahead of my game!!

oh my technique is very good. i'm a powerlifter you see with a modern philosophy to it too. (and drug free too which is bloody rare nowadays!) i do my max effort squat every monday in UL if you want to see:( i know what you mean about technique though. 99% of squats are not squats they are horrendous form and rarely break paralell. criteria for SQUAT is hip crease going below knee. powerlifting rules.


john anderson is the man. ever seen him squat the two train wheels???
that was before all the drugs and gear came in too!!!!
so to all the sceptics out there: i say look to the preww2 times before steroids came in and see that there were some very very strong men around....inspiring to the likes of me...

RPGGAMER

irish drug free powerlifting association.
i'm joining up this jan. its only 40e for the year. competed in 'ordinary fed' before but it did not suit my clean ways. remember too that you can do single lift comps! bench only and pull only etc. check it out. didnt your mom ever tell you the story of the ten talents? if you have a gift you should use it. if you don't i think you burn in hell or somesuch...

RPGGAMER

You asked for a substitute for the squat.


bulgarian squat( one leg squat variation - could be called a 'static lunge'

its a one leg squat with split stance like when you genaflect at mass on sunday. Range of motion is increased by placing rear leg on a 8-10" step and squatting fully until knee lightly (not bounce) touches the floor. great at developing the glutes, hams, quads, inner thighs and hip/pelvis stability also core and ankle cos o balance requirements etc. summary : great exercise and thats why its called a bulgarian squat.

keep front heel down. push through heel not toes
pm if you want pictures/more details of it etc

incisor71

RPGGAMER wrote:

didnt your mom ever tell you the story of the ten talents? if you have a gift you should use it. if you don't i think you burn in hell or somesuch...

Can't say she did, but she did talk about bushels and lights hidden underneath.

joc_06

well i've been through the mill for a year or more with my back. My first ever deadlift was 150kg about 12 months ago. I thought it was great but my back didnt agree and i was basically laid up for a week after every deadlifting session. I was stupid enough to think that the pain would go after a while as i got stronger.
It all meant no running/sprinting for a week after a deadlifting session which is what i terrible for me as thats what i do (although not too well)...
After much trial and error i realised i can do SLDLs and 1 leg sldls with no back pain so now i pretty much refuse to deadlift straight off the ground unless maybe as part of a clean or snatch and even those aggravate my back and dont give me as much bang for my buck as other forms of squats.
Id be interested in hearing you solution though.

Re my squatting weight. i just think im a natural good squatter because im no good at many other things really.

incisor71

incisor71 wrote:

Can't say she did, but she did talk about bushels and lights hidden underneath.

And now I realise she should've told me not to hide my light under a bowl, not a bushel.

Slightly more back on topic, though, may I ask both you guys (RPGGAMER and joc_06) how many years you've been training (respectively) with the raw squat technique?

joc_06

12 months ago i was parallel squatting 80kg @ 90kg BW.
Nothing or almost nothing before then.
Since then i improved a bit til this february but was still @ 100kg to parallel and then i really changed my ways. Changed everything and pretty much became a full time amateur athlete.
I dont train for the squat. I just use it as a means to an end

RPGGAMER

incisor71 wrote:

And now I realise she should've told me not to hide my light under a bowl, not a bushel.

Slightly more back on topic, though, may I ask both you guys (RPGGAMER and joc_06) how many years you been training (respectively) with the raw squat technique?

i started training at 19. now just turned 26. first few years a leg pressing etc just screwed me up. a few years squatting but technique not great. then started powerlifting and things came together. (lower reps +better technique and knowledge) My biggest gains however are in the last 2years(westside system - based on russian conjugate periodisation ) when i started box squatting. doesnt take as much out of you and is safer and i think it has trained me better for squatting than squatting itself!

RPGGAMER

RPGGAMER wrote:

i started training at 19. now just turned 26. first few years a leg pressing etc just screwed me up. a few years squatting but technique not great. then started powerlifting and things came together. (lower reps +better technique and knowledge) My biggest gains however are in the last 2years(westside system - based on russian conjugate periodisation ) when i started box squatting. doesnt take as much out of you and is safer and i think it has trained me better for squatting than squatting itself!

i test the raw squat then in a 3 week cycle every 4-5 months or a comp of course..