Casinos illegal?

jimbling

was just reading the Independent at lunch and there was an article on the legality of the Casinos around the country. Basically it was saying that they are pretty much all illegal, and the minister is going to have to either demand they close, or amend the legislation.



what are your reckonings on this situation?

jacQues

jimbling wrote:

was just reading the Independent at lunch and there was an article on the legality of the Casinos around the country. Basically it was saying that they are pretty much all illegal, and the minister is going to have to either demand they close, or amend the legislation.

what are your reckonings on this situation?

To my knowledge, which may not be correct. There is a legislation that 'works'. Just a licence for gambling has never been issued. Therefore, all casinos are indeed illegal (since they have no valid licence).

Having said that, note that all tournaments without top-ops and without add-ons are not considered gambling since all players have equal odds. Therefore, a lot of home games and organised tournaments are perfectly legal, as they don't require a licence.

jacQues

LegacyUser

jacQues wrote:

To my knowledge, which may not be correct. There is a legislation that 'works'. Just a licence for gambling has never been issued. Therefore, all casinos are indeed illegal (since they have no valid licence).

Having said that, note that all tournaments without top-ops and without add-ons are not considered gambling since all players have equal odds. Therefore, a lot of home games and organised tournaments are perfectly legal, as they don't require a licence.

jacQues

I think also that the membership requirements for the "casinos" around town exploit a loophole in the law for them to operate.

jacQues

bruachain wrote:

I think also that the membership requirements for the "casinos" around town exploit a loophole in the law for them to operate.

A member only club is indeed what they use. However, I do not think it holds up. If that were true I could (in theory) open up a member only brothel club. That would be closed down immediately.

Its probably more because they don't harm anyone, don't do anything illegal (*) and are not disallowed to run their business. Meaning; legaly they can be shut down but luckily common sense prevails with the law-enforcement.

jacQues

* = Running an unlicenced business is against the law alright and a legal offence. But its not their fault.
Disclaimer: I am not familiar with the legal system and its implications. Above are my thoughts and/or belief rather than a factual representatation.

roryc

Yeh I filmed a documentary on this last year. Im pretty sure that its legal once they are registered as 'card clubs' and not 'casinos'. Lot of legal crap too that I won't get into.


All the same I think we should go the way of England and actually have at least ONE large casino. The Sporting Emporium is a start..... It will just have to be done slowly and quietly so as not to enrage the rest of the country, a lot of who would be opposed to any 'Casinos' due to still being a fcuking backward country in some ways....

I'm pretty sure if a vote was taken now whether to allow Casinos in Ireland it would probably fail.

jacQues

roryc wrote:

Im pretty sure that its legal once they are registered as 'card clubs' and not 'casinos'.

That by itself doesn't make it legal! It would be legal if:

• They didn't have roulete.
• They didn't have player vs. house games (like Black Jack).
• They didn't run cash games.

Above are considered "gambling" according to the law and a "card club" licence does not allow for gambling activities. As simple as that.

Not a single gambling licence was ever issued in ROI for a casino.

jacQues

Same disclaimer as above.

roryc

Yeh the roulette and house games are illegal, but the poker tournamnets are legal if held right.


And you don't need a disclaimer...we won't sue

NickyOD

If gambling is illegal why is the planning permission allowed? You have to apply for planning permission if you want to have gambling on your premises no?

jacQues

roryc wrote:

Yeh the roulette and house games are illegal, but the poker tournamnets are legal if held right.

And you don't need a disclaimer...we won't sue

Hehe

Well I just wanted to make sure noone is taking my word as "final". Always consult an experts' advice on those matters!

The law works funny. First of all its written in a different language (although they claim its English). Then the "real" law is not the written one but rather the interpretation of it (the spirit of the law supersedes the actual written words of that same law). It can be very confusing. Then, to add insult to injury (got a headeache now!), lawsuits done in the past can add exceptions to each (interpreted) law.

See, I'm making huge typos because its so very damn complicated! Lawyers must be masochists or something.

jacQues

jacQues

NickyOD wrote:

If gambling is illegal why is the planning permission allowed? You have to apply for planning permission if you want to have gambling on your premises no?

Gambling is legal. (Think of all the bookies for example, and the horse- and greyhound tracks etc.)

Just the gambling licence isn't given to casinos. I don't know why.

jacQues

Daithio

I'd imagine that the opening of the Sporting Emporium has ensured that the authorities will continue to ignore the casinos and leave them be. There's no way that Dermot Desmond would have opened up that place without assurance from the people in power that it would be legit, and there's no way that Fianna Fail will compromise one of its biggest donator's newest business ventures.

5starpool

But McDowell like p1ssing Fianna Fail off. Bertie might have to get him in line. Damn PD's.

jtsuited

Is it just me or is anyone else getting annoyed by the Government's lack of initiative on this topic.
A state run casino would generate colossal revenue, which could in turn be used to provide for decent education and health systems.
It's an absolute joke to hear any sort of political outcry about gambling in a country that has the 'national lottery' - the finest example of collective dumb gambling anyone will ever bear witness to.

nicryan

roryc wrote:

Yeh I filmed a documentary on this last year. Im pretty sure that its legal once they are registered as 'card clubs' and not 'casinos'. Lot of legal crap too that I won't get into.

no not registered as card club...just as a private members club


Nic

roryc

yeh thats what I meant 'members' club Thats why you have to become a member before you can get in. Pointless really, its just the wording of the law.

hotspur

jtsuited wrote:

Is it just me or is anyone else getting annoyed by the Government's lack of initiative on this topic.

Nope it is not just you. Look we all know that these private member clubs pretend they are operating in a loophole when in fact what they "actually" engage in is strictly illegal. Being a private members club doesn't just mean that you need to be a member - the point is that any gambling that goes on in the club is *between* individual members!

The dogs in the street know that that's not what goes on and these are profit making clubs, they are de facto casinos, and if anyone evers bothers to make an issue out of their actual behaviour then they would be judged de jure casinos and thus be deemed illegal under the legislation. Also most of the poker tournaments held around the country would be judged illegal under the legislation which I printed here before.

But the government will do absolutely nothing about it, and there will not be prosecutions I can assure you. Liberalisation of gambling laws in Ireland was judged to be such a huge political hot potato after the record number of public complaints about the proposed big casino in phoenix park some years ago that it will not be touched, and the government ignored all of the advice of the committee they set up to look into the area.

In my opinion this political cowardice is actually, and I mean this genuinely, killing people in this country. We are in the midst of a gambling epidemic both in Ireland and the Western world both offline and online. Previous research on proximity to gambling venues in America has shown that living within 50 miles of a casino doubles the risk of being a problem gambler, and living within 10 miles of one increases the risk by 90%. Well now they're all over Dublin and in our bedrooms too.

Ireland has a gambling culture and we have many problem gamblers who's lives have been ruined by the problem, but we are almost unique as a country in that we don't have any publically funded organisation to help problem gamblers. All we have is Gamblers Anonymous which while they do a certain job are not sufficient and not to everyone's taste.

I said it was killing people. The suicide rate among problem gamblers is obscene. In one famous study of GA members by Lesieur (1998) he suggested that 12-18% had attempted suicide, 45-49% had made plans to, and 80% have contemplated it.

Other countries have help organisations (we have to ring England for a helpline), have models of promoting responsible gaming in conjunction with key industry players like casinos which we can't have because they exist in a legal grey area. Ireland has a very high suicide rate among young males, which is also the the most usual demographic of the problem gambler, I have no doubt that at least *some* of these deaths are from problem gamblers with tons of debt, no hope, and thanks to our governement no help. These are avoidable, but the issue is being ignored for the sake of not risking political unpopularity. As a pyschologist this p*sses me off.

Sorry for the long ramble, I blame you Jacques ye mad Belgian, stick to the Magic cards

jacQues

hotspur wrote:

Sorry for the long ramble, I blame you Jacques ye mad Belgian, stick to the Magic cards

LOL

First of all, I'm of Dutch nationality (my wife is Irish).

Secondly, I'm a gamer. This means that I play for fun and yes - to win. Google my full name to find out (if you didn't already knew). With regards to poker. Its very popular right now, so I organise some events for that. If snap were popular, you'd find me on the snap-board Organizing to me is the one step further than just playing, something I've been playing games all my life and always will, but organizing just gives me that extra something.

Magic (that is, Magic: the gathering, not magic tricks) is a fun game too, with way more gameplay than poker. Not that hard actually, 10,000+ cards vs. 52 cards! I cut down on Magic simply because it costed me too much money. Keeping up with new sets is simply very expensive. I found with poker I make money (on average that is, and only for real-life poker). With me low on cash and a wedding to pay for (and other 'things' soonish that are very expensive), it was a logical descision.

Gambling is certainly legal here in Ireland. So much so that bookies pay way less taxes than me. I haven't been around all that much, but to my perception, Ireland is the country with the most gambling offices. So you can accept it or not, gambling is in the Irish culture... Now, why casinos don't get a gambling licence I don't know. But they are kinda allowed, since they're not being closed down. I reckon' that this implies that somewhere down the line they will be issued gaming licences. But politics are always slow, so it could take a few decenia or so...

In regards to gamblin addiction. Its very easy to point a finger and/or to push responsability away. The bottom line is that if you spend too much money and/or time on poker, you should consider cutting down. The fact that there is no good help for gamblin addicts simply means that noone bothered setting something up in that area. If you want a change, you have to start it. Don't expect it to change all by itself (it sometimes happens, granted). This goes for "nowhere to go" as well as the "responsibility" matter. In a sense, we poker-players are all responsible for both our own behaviour and fellow players who "go to far". I consider myself a gaming-addict, no doubt about it. But I do budget myself (see Magic above) and don't alienate from my environment. If I see someone do such a "problem", I'll offer him/her help. If you feel that there should be a national help-centre, start one?

jacQues

P.S. "mad" I can agree to.