Vodafone Rip Off Their Irish 3G customers.

spongebob

In an analysis in todays Irish Times business section it is demonstrated clearly that Vodafone have a deliberate Ripoff policy in place in Ireland for their 3G customers. The article compares like for like packages and phones from Voda IE and Voda UK .

• Monthly Packages are more expensive , eg Footie Goals cost €7 in england and €10 here
• Handset Subsidies are far greater in the UK , up to €240 in one specific case.

Wonder if our dim regulator will do anything about it

M

aidan_walsh

Vodafone will call it recouping their costs from installing the new equipment needed to put the service out there, the rest of us will call it taking advantage of their temporary monopoly in the Irish 3G sector. This is half the reason that I won't be getting a 3G phone for about another year.

spongebob

Vodafone paid €9 Billion for their UK licence. They paid €100 Million for their Irish licence. What exactly are they recouping from the Irish customers...their network only functions in Dublin / Cork/ Limerick and Galway IIRC .......100 Base stations or so .

Its simply a ripoff , pick a number and round it up (way up) in Ireland .

M

TCP/IP

I think its a case of if you dont want it dont buy it.
But i personally can not wait

JTMan

Vodafone and O2 have been involved in systamaticly ripping off Irish customers for years. I have previously heard a guy in O2 say that O2 often refer to Ireland as the "land of gold" ...Their profit margins are several times that here than they are elsewhere

Vodafone customers in UK can get 1,000 any network anytime minutes for just over 30 quid with a great free handset through their direct channels. The same here costs several times that.

The more pople up sticks to Meteor and 3 (when they arrive) the better.

jesus_thats_gre

Its an interesting viewpoint Muck but its drastically over simplified and you know it..

Big Nelly

Fungus wrote:

The more pople up sticks to Meteor and 3 (when they arrive) the better.

Gave Vodafone the 2 fingers yesterday! was with on contract with them more than 5 years but sick of them!! see how Meteor contract goes!

ven0m

Like anyone is suprised by this - all telcos in this country are engaged in the systematic rip-off of their customers, even when their operations in other countries charge THEIR customers less....

the best one is how they tell you in the UK, Vodafone Ireland has NOTHING to do with them..... really.... so what, are they a franchise now instead of being all part of the Mannesman group???

See - they'll do what they want because they KNOW how important mobiles phones are to people & how much as a society 'we' depend on them..... BASTARDS!!!!

::: ven0mous :::

v10

ven0m wrote:

Like anyone is suprised by this - all telcos in this country are engaged in the systematic rip-off of their customers ....

:rolleyes: .. as ven0m said, like anyone is suprised

Also I don't think that Ireland's Rip Off policy is limited to telco companys ...

Maybe the Irish Times should tell us whats being done about it rather than state the obvious.

Horeb

The UK Network "3" is currently in a pilot stage here in Dublin for Coporate users, but will be online some time next year hence bringing a little more competition between them and Vodafone.

I will wait a year or som to see how the work out.

But at the moment it is well over priced and the handsets and not the best either :mad:

jesus_thats_gre

ven0m wrote:

so what, are they a franchise now instead of being all part of the Mannesman group???

[/x-files music...]

Mannesman group......??

spongebob

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Its an interesting viewpoint Muck but its drastically over simplified and you know it..

It is Deliberately KEPT simple JTG as a like for like comparison should be.

UK 60,000,000 people , Licence €9Bn, cost €150 per capita or so.
Ireland 4,000,000 people Licence €120m cost €30 per capita or so.

We Irish are being ripped off to subsidise the UK. The sooner 802.16e burns the arse off those greedy pricks in Voodoofone AND Oh Pooh the better, except that Oh Poooh have not launched 3G yet ...have they That will unfortunately merit its own thread I fear and I will be equitable .

M

Blackjack

ARPU (Average Revenue Per User) is higher in Ireland than every other country (with perhaps the exception of Japan) for the Mobile companies.
The charges are ridiculous, but there is bugger all competition, and all 3 companies know that people will still pay whatever tariff they set regardless.

RicardoSmith

I don't understand why phones that are sold in their millions all over the world, for example the 6310i, and in production for a few years are still €200 here. Thats pure profit at this stage. It has to cost very little to make that phone in such large numbers. Same with the more common phones. :mad:

jesus_thats_gre

Muck wrote:

It is Deliberately KEPT simple JTG as a like for like comparison should be.

UK 60,000,000 people , Licence €9Bn, cost €150 per capita or so.
Ireland 4,000,000 people Licence €120m cost €30 per capita or so.
M

Yes but you also know that the licensing process in Ireland was done very differently to that of the UK and other parts of Europe, i.e. the British choose to auction their licenses to the highest bidder while what is now Comreg choose to allocate the licenses by means of a beauty parade.

So to compare the cost of the licenses directly mean absolutely nothing.



ARPU for operators in this country is higher for one main reason.. On Vodafone Ireland for example, customers spend 45% more time on their phone than the groups average. A similar situation applies to 02

http://www.sbpost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-182092734-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FThe-Market-2FMarkets.asp

Average revenue per user (ARPU), the industry standard measure, at Vodafone in Ireland grew by 8.2 per cent to €576 per year. The return is about 60 per cent higher than other markets. In Britain, the ARPU was €362, in Germany €353 and New Zealand €355.

Vodafone argues that Irish customers use their phones on average 45 per cent more than the group average. Furthermore, Irish users are on the phone for an average of 183 minutes a month. However, the group does not break down minute usage in any of its other markets.Without this transparency, protestations by the company simply lack credibility.

The average monthly talktime at 02 was 192 minutes in the first half.With annual average ARPUs at €551, it implies an average per minute charge of 24 cent. This is broadly in line with the implied European experience for 02 - in Britain the average per minute charge is 25 cent while in Germany it is 24 cent.

Stick to facts lads and stop twisting stuff to suit arguments..

RicardoSmith

I think theres a cultural problem of being not very savvy consumers. Most people couldn't tell you which shop sells the cheapest pint of milk or bread.
Consumers need to start being coming more active in pursuing cheaper prices and better value for money. The regulators need to force clearer price comparisions to enpower the consumer to make better choices. Its all smoke and mirrors at the moment.

jesus_thats_gre

There is far too much attention given to the larger companies while private or small businesses also charge what they like without anyone saying boo..

For all the people who moan about O2, Vodafone or Eircom, how many still remain with them?

sceptre

ven0m wrote:

so what, are they a franchise now instead of being all part of the Mannesman group???

Didn't they continue to just call the whole thing Vodafone when they took over Mannesmann Mobilfunk?

jesus_thats_gre

sceptre wrote:

Didn't they continue to just call the whole thing Vodafone when they took over Mannesmann Mobilfunk?

Finally..

[/...x-files music]

spongebob

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Yes but you also know that the licensing process in Ireland was done very differently to that of the UK and other parts of Europe, i.e. the British choose to auction their licenses to the highest bidder while what is now Comreg choose to allocate the licenses by means of a beauty parade.

So to compare the cost of the licenses directly mean absolutely nothing.

Yes it does. The cost incurred pre rollout in the UK was 5 times greater than in Ireland.

In Ireland the Vodafone coverage requirement is c. 2 Million people by end 2007. Vodafone will comply fully with their licence by covering the cities Dublin Galway Limerick Cork Waterford and the roads in between. Once you go 5km off a National road there will be no coverage. The Irish coverage requirement will allow Voda to cherrypick their markets. The UK licence is more onerous.

Voda got a better deal here . This will dramatically reduce their startup costs ! Yet we are being ripped off rotten by Vodafone Ireland by the pricing of the service and the handsets.

ARPU for operators in this country is higher for one main reason.. On Vodafone Ireland for example, customers spend 45% more time on their phone than the groups average. A similar situation applies to 02

http://www.sbpost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-182092734-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FThe-Market-2FMarkets.asp

Arse! A package to package comparison clearly shows that for a given postpaid spend of ...say 100 minutes.....Voda UK is always cheaper than Voda Ireland. Show one direct tariff comparison that proves otherwise JTG .....2g or 3g .

Stick to facts lads and stop twisting stuff to suit arguments..

I started the thread with facts ...and only facts so YOU answer this lot for me please .

1. Why is the same handset more expensive in Ireland, by far, than in the UK.

2. Why is the tariff package also cheaper in the UK despite the cheaper handset (eg higher subsidy) . Take about 100 mins and do like for like there.

3. Why are NO 3G handsets cheaper in Ireland than in the UK , allow for 17.5% VAT there and 21% VAT here .

4. Why do we pay far more per month for a like for like package such as as premiership goals .

M

jesus_thats_gre

I attempted to compare them before but was unable to get a two packages similar enough to directly compare them.. You are ignoring that the Irish do spend more time on their phone still too..






I accept you are on the ball regarding handset prices being more expensive here but that boils down to competition in the market. You are directly comparing a market with 3 operators (2 dominant) and 4 million potentiol customers with the UK, 4 networks (ultra competitive), god knows how many MVNOs and near 60 million potential customers. The fact the Three offers directly competing services is a major factor.. I am giving you possible reasons for the difference, does not mean I agree but you got to accept reality..

jesus_thats_gre

For arguments sake:

http://www.vodafone.ie/myvodafone/phonesandtariffs/postpaid/rd_tariff.jsp?pageid=1101395170533

Light

Cost per month: ______________€20
Inclusive minutes:______________10 peak, 50 off, 50 CAFF
Standard calls (day):______________50c
Standard calls (eve/wkd):______________30c
Calls to Vodafone mobiles (day):______________30c
Calls to Vodafone mobiles (eve/wkd):______________15c
Calls to other mobiles (day):______________50c
Calls to other mobiles (eve/wkd):______________30c
Voicemail (day):______________Free
Voicemail (eve/wkd):______________Free
Text messages (per message):______________13c
Picture messages (per message):______________29c
Video messages (per message):______________50c
Data usage per KB:______________.2cent after 0.5mb (2 cent before)


http://www.vodafone.co.uk/cgi-bin/COUK/portal/ep/browse.do?channelPath=%2FVodafone+Portal%2FGet+more+from+your+mobile%2FCoverage+and+price+plans%2FPay+monthly%2FCurrent+price+plans&BV_SessionID=@@@@1484354202.1101394781@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccceadddegldflicflgcegjdgnfdffn.0

Anytime 30

Cost per month______________£15 - €21.41
Inclusive minutes:______________30 minutes anytime
Standard calls (day):______________15p - 21c
Standard calls (eve/wkd):______________15p - 21c
Calls to UK Vodafone mobiles (day):______________15p - 21c
Calls to UK Vodafone mobiles (eve/wkd):______________15p - 21c
Calls to other mobiles (day):______________40p - 57c
Calls to other mobiles (eve/wkd):______________40p - 57c
Voicemail (day):______________15p - 21c
Voicemail (eve/wkd):______________15p - 21c
Text messages (per message):______________12p - 17c
Picture messages (per message):______________36p - 51c
Video messages (per message):______________60p - 85cent
Data usage per KB:______________0.235p



Not exactly a massive differences.

spongebob

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

For arguments sake:

http://www.vodafone.ie/myvodafone/phonesandtariffs/postpaid/rd_tariff.jsp?pageid=1101395170533

IRELAND

Light

Cost per month: ______________€20
Inclusive minutes:______________10 peak, 50 off, 50 CAFF
Standard calls (day):______________50c
Standard calls (eve/wkd):______________30c
Calls to Vodafone mobiles (day):______________30c
Calls to Vodafone mobiles (eve/wkd):______________15c
Calls to other mobiles (day):______________50c
Calls to other mobiles (eve/wkd):______________30c
Voicemail (day):______________Free
Voicemail (eve/wkd):______________Free
Text messages (per message):______________13c
Picture messages (per message):______________29c
Video messages (per message):______________50c
Data usage per KB:______________.2cent after 0.5mb (2 cent before)


UK

Anytime 30

Cost per month______________£15 - €21.41
Inclusive minutes:______________30 minutes anytime

Ok so far...allowing for price points like 19.99 in both countries.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Standard calls (day):______________15p - 21c
Standard calls (eve/wkd):______________15p - 21c

And we pay 50c day and 30c night , our cheapest call differential , once we have used up the bundled minutes , is 50% More that the UK . During the day we can pay Almost 150% more , thats 50c where they pay 21c . Yet these calls to landlines terminate for 2c a minute nowadays .

As we spend 'more time' on the phone we should qualify for a step discount somewhere but it appears not does it The 50c is flat rate irrespective of minutes or spend.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Calls to UK Vodafone mobiles (day):______________15p - 21c
Calls to UK Vodafone mobiles (eve/wkd):______________15p - 21c
Calls to other mobiles (day):______________40p - 57c
Calls to other mobiles (eve/wkd):______________40p - 57c

Calls to MOBILES are broadly the same, Ireland may be a netch cheaper even in the eves to O2 and Meteor, its a netch though.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Voicemail (day):______________15p - 21c
Voicemail (eve/wkd):______________15p - 21c

Voicemail is FREE in Ireland I note. Not in the UK.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Text messages (per message):______________12p - 17c
Picture messages (per message):______________36p - 51c
Video messages (per message):______________60p - 85cent
Data usage per KB:______________0.235p

TEXT and GPRS is Broadly similar.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Not exactly a massive differences.

A massive difference calling landlines . Must abolish them and save some money Free voicemail in Ireland . Much of a muchness elsewhere , eg calls to mobiles and txt and picture me4ssaging , some of it for simplicity sake.

M

jesus_thats_gre

Rental

Ireland - €20 with 50 free off peak mins, 10 peak mins and 50 CAFF mins
UK - €21.41 with 30 mins for use at anytime

Messaging:

SMS:
Ireland - 13c
UK - 17

MMS:
Ireland - 29c
UK - 51c

Video Messaging:
Ireland - 49c
UK - 85c


Calls to Landlines:

Ireland - Peak: 50c / Off Peak: 15c
UK - Peak: 21c / Off Peak: 21c

Off Net Calls:

Ireland - Peak: 50c / Off Peak: 30c
UK - Peak 57c / Off Peak: 57c

On Net Calls:

Ireland - Peak: 30c / Off Peak: 15c
UK - Peak: 21c / Off Peak: 21c

Data
Ireland - 2c/kb up to 512kb then 0.2c/kb
UK - 0.3c/kb


I have no doubt that it will not be so clear cut when comparing other tariffs but the above is pretty conclusive.

An important point to note is that tariffs are normally replaced every 2 years from experience. The UK options were only introduced recently while the Irish options are over 2 years old at least and are probably going to be re-jigged soon enough. The exchange rate is also drastically in favour of your argument.

jesus_thats_gre

Muck wrote:

OAnd we pay 50c day and 30c night , our cheapest call differential , once we have used up the bundled minutes , is 50% More that the UK . During the day we can pay Almost 150% more , thats 50c where they pay 21c . Yet these calls to landlines terminate for 2c a minute nowadays .


M

I actually entered the call charges for landlines in correctly.

It is correct in the post above this..

JTMan

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

UK - €21.41 with 30 mins for use at anytime

You arer comparing the worst value tarrif in the UK with a typical Irish tarrif. In stores you can get 1,000 minutes for £36 a year. The Tarrifs on the website do not reflect what offers consumers usually get through other channels in the UK.

jesus_thats_gre

Fungus wrote:

You arer comparing the worst value tarrif in the UK with a typical Irish tarrif. In stores you can get 1,000 minutes for £36 a year. The Tarrifs on the website do not reflect what offers consumers usually get through other channels in the UK.

I compared to the two base tariffs..

spongebob

2 base tariffs will do for starters , I am currently examining another 'pair' . Thanks for the clear up JTG.

M

jesus_thats_gre

Was hoping you would just let it go.. doh..

jesus_thats_gre

I have taken the highest Vodafone Ireland Tariff and compared it directly to the second highest Vodafone UK Tariff. Its close but its not an exact science.


Rental

Ireland: Vodafone Super Time 500 - €99 incl 500 anytime mins and 200 CAFF
UK - Anytime 400 - €71 - 400 anytime mins

Messaging:

SMS:
Ireland - 13c
UK - 17.1c

MMS:
Ireland - 29c
UK - 51.3c

Calls to Landlines:

Ireland - Peak: 20c / Off Peak: 20c
UK - Peak: 17.1c / Off Peak: 17.1c

Off Net Calls:

Ireland - Peak: 20c / Off Peak: 20c
UK - Peak 49c / Off Peak: 49c

On Net Calls:

Ireland - Peak: 20c / Off Peak: 20c
UK - Peak: 17.1c / Off Peak: 17.1c

Data
Ireland - 2c/kb up to 512kb then 0.5c/kb
UK - 0.3c/kb


The current exchange rate is a big factor once again. There is also a blatantly obvious attempt to make the Irish tariff as simple as possible, i.e. 20c across the board..

jesus_thats_gre

Just as a final point on this thread...


Usage statistics on New Years in Ireland and the UK:

Ireland:

22 million SMS and MMS messages sent : 3 - 3.5 million customers

A ratio of between 6.3 and 7.1 messages per person


UK:

150 million SMS and MMS messages sent : 50 - 55million customers

A ratio of between 2.7 and 3 messages per person




Pretty conclusive proof that us Irish just use our phone considerably more!!

jesus_thats_gre

Irish people send near 3.7 billion messages a year..


25 billion text messages were send in the UK last year..

UK : Ireland SMS Ratio (billions)
25 : 3.7

UK : Ireland Population Ratio (millions)

60 : 4


Once again, pretty conclusive proof that us Irish just use our phone considerably more!!

flywheel

Ireland:
NYE 22 million SMS and MMS messages sent : 3 - 3.5 million customers

anyone got a breakout of those figures for actual number of MMS sent

jesus_thats_gre

I have been trying to get it myself.. Mind you, can't imagine it being near 10%..

spongebob

JTG , you just made a very good case why TXT Messages in Ireland should cost a lot less than in the UK , about half in fact.

Thoughts

M

jesus_thats_gre

I am not getting into the economics of it..

However, it does prove that we do use our phones more..

Ironically, if you check the tariff tables in this very thread, you will see that SMSs are cheaper here!

The Clown Man

JTG you should do a thesis with all you know on tariffs at this stage.

And aren't landline calls more expensive because of call termination charges? Imposed by your favourite crowd Muck? I suppose it all comes back to Eircom. Let's just stick to Eircom bashing - they are much easier targets!

jesus_thats_gre

The Clown Man wrote:

I suppose it all comes back to Eircom. Let's just stick to Eircom bashing - they are much easier targets!

Works for me

Capt'n Midnight

Let's not forget that Eircom have priced land lines such that mobile phones don't seem all that more expensive, if they had to drop line rental/rates to EU/OECD norms would it stop people leaving land lines ?

ESB had record years for new connections in the last two years
Depsite the numbers of new houses the number of residential land lines is dropping.

spongebob

The Clown Man wrote:

And aren't landline calls more expensive because of call termination charges? Imposed by your favourite crowd Muck? I suppose it all comes back to Eircom. Let's just stick to Eircom bashing - they are much easier targets!

Voodoofone are indisputably less scummy than Eircom o amusing one.

Landline calls are dearer than the difference between BT terminaton in the UK and Eircom termination here and the added differences in VAT (17.5% UK and 21% Ireland) when both factors are aggregated.

M

d-j-k

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Finally..

[/...x-files music]

Mannesman Group never had anything to do with Vodafone Ireland (formerly eircell). It was sold by eircom directly to Vodafone PLC (UK) and is 100% owned by them and operated as a subsiduary company.

Mannesman's mobile phone operations in Germany were taken over by Vodafone PLC shortly after they purchased eircell while they were on their aquisitional rampage across Europe.

Vodafone also has "Associates" e.g. SFR in France which are usually partially owned by Vodafone PLC and sell vodafone's products e.g. "Vodafone Live!"

jesus_thats_gre

d-j-k wrote:

Mannesman Group never had anything to do with Vodafone Ireland (formerly eircell). It was sold by eircom directly to Vodafone PLC (UK) and is 100% owned by them and operated as a subsiduary company.

Mannesman's mobile phone operations in Germany were taken over by Vodafone PLC shortly after they purchased eircell while they were on their aquisitional rampage across Europe.

Vodafone also has "Associates" e.g. SFR in France which are usually partially owned by Vodafone PLC and sell vodafone's products e.g. "Vodafone Live!"

I am fully aware of who Mannesman were.. I am also aware that Vodafone have partner networks around the world, SFR for example..

Why are you telling me this though :-/

jesus_thats_gre

Thinking back, I may have been trying to be sarcastic.. Cannot even remember..

parsi

sceptre wrote:

Didn't they continue to just call the whole thing Vodafone when they took over Mannesmann Mobilfunk?

Ah yes the Mannesmann takeover - the directors went ahead despite vociferous shareholder disapproval. Wasn't there subsequent court action ?

Over here eircon sold off eircell to vodafone almost like they were trying to sell a suppurating sore - " here you take it, yeah whatever you want to offer is grand,ah no we won't try and see if anyone wants to buy it..."

The fastest selloff in the history of the State - or so it appeared to this disgruntled eircon shareholder...

flywheel

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Thinking back, I may have been trying to be sarcastic..

that sounds pretty true to form alright...

anyhow this thread is going off topic and more suited to the Business / Economy / Finance forum and can be continued there if those taking part want to do so.