Unarmed Civilans Gunned Down

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

therecklessone

Another story that stayed under the radar so far...

Evidence of sex abuse by UN staff in Congo

Again, replace UN with US and Congo with Iraq, and this would be front page news.

mike65

At last the fightback!

I saw that UN story and had intended to post about it. The French in the Ivory Coast are having a terrible time on all fronts but you'd never guess
from the media that anything much was happening.

Mike.

shotamoose

I've been reading quite a lot about it, guess I must know how to get past the anti-American liberal media bias or something. Obscure sites like the BBC and New York Times seem to have quite a lot of coverage.

For what it's worth, my take on what I've read is that the Ivorian President Gbagbo has stoked up popular anti-French resentment in order to consolidate power and deflect attention from his failure to deliver peace. The French have responded by bombing his entire airforce, which to this uninformed observer does not seem the best way to defuse the situation. Haven't seen that video yet, but mowing down civilians is likewise not a good way to win hearts and minds, as the Americans have discovered in Iraq.

By the way, I find this trend of people starting up threads with comments like "I can't believe there's nothing on boards about this (except for this thread obviously), just goes to show people don't really care unless it's the Americans doing something etc etc" quite annoying. Someone has to be the first one to post on a particular topic - can't you do it without simultaneously attacking other people for not doing so?

sovtek

Yup looks like the French government still have a little bit o knee jerk imperialism left in em yet.
I expected the "ah ha what about the French! what about the French!"about a month ago.
What can I say about it...as far as I'm concerned there is little I, as an American, can do about it.
My government is a different story though.

SkepticOne

sovtek wrote:

What can I say about it...as far as I'm concerned there is little I, as an American, can do about it.
My government is a different story though.

I agree. The less Yanks involved the better. Both the French and the Ivorians have quite enough on their hands already.

mike65

shotamoose wrote:

I've been reading quite a lot about it, guess I must know how to get past the anti-American liberal media bias or something. Obscure sites like the BBC and New York Times seem to have quite a lot of coverage....

....By the way, I find this trend of people starting up threads with comments like "I can't believe there's nothing on boards about this (except for this thread obviously), just goes to show people don't really care unless it's the Americans doing something etc etc" quite annoying. Someone has to be the first one to post on a particular topic - can't you do it without simultaneously attacking other people for not doing so?

On the first point, you're right as far as you go, but you and I both know that the coverage on the main news programmes on TV has been scant and thats where the "unwashed" get thier world opinion from.

Secondly if you want to see the effect of NOT having a pop at the anti-US brigade check this thread. Note the posting dates. Its been viewed 115 times as of now.

Mike.

Sand

Im wondering why the French started shooting in the first place - there was a large crowd alright, but they mainly seemed to be standing around shouting stuff - there wasnt even the missles youd expect from "peaceful protestors". Surely the French/UN soldiers must have had good cause?

That said though, Im now convinced that the U.N. is the best option for Iraq. Lets introduce slavery, sexual exploitation of minors and shooting protestors into the mix.

Now I'm not exusing the American's crimes, I'm just pointing out a disgusting incident that's not getting the coverage it disturbs because people are too occupied with the evil Americans killing Margret Hassan, or whatever tinfoil hat theory they have.

Yup - It reminds me of the way middle eastern regimes saturate their media with stories about Israel/Palestine and now Iraq to divert their peoples anger to external targets rather than to their own domestic failings. At this stage, the same could maybe be said about the European media which will devote page after page to Americas failings, disasters and problems which can only help European leaders gloss over their own.

Redleslie2

The French are beheading terrorists apparently. Link.

Cardinal Bernard Agre said last week he had seen young girls decapitated by the French army - a charge President Gbagbo said he believed to be true.

sceptre

therecklessone wrote:

Another story that stayed under the radar so far...

Evidence of sex abuse by UN staff in Congo

Wasn't it on the news months ago? I know I heard about it months ago.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

passive

it said protestors, not terrorists. i dunno about beheading, which sounds like a pretty random and absurd acusation really but there was a skull blown apart in that video anyway. that was pretty screwed up and harrowing...

I don't see how they could justify those deaths, apart from the complete denial... but i'd like to know why they opened fire as they did. the camera man wasn't watching the troops when the shooting started and was running while it was taking place so the actual cause is very unclear.

I dunno why people aren't talking about it. but i suppose it is proportionally a lot smaller than the war in iraq, which has more of a back story that the whole world has been following so there's less interest in this situation.

Redleslie2

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Stinks of rabble-rousing hate-mongering propaganda to me actually, a bit like booby trapped corpses and jessica lynch's rape.

shotamoose

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Having watched the video, can I just say that I missed the bit where it shows French Soldiers Machine-gunning Civilians. I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that you can't tell from that video. At the start, a big crowd is standing around in front of some tanks and other military equipment that as far as I can see are not identifiably French. Then there's shooting. Then we see lots of injured and dead people. Then we see some French troops.

To repeat, I'm not simply taking the French side, and I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm just not sure that video shows what you're saying it's showing.

therecklessone

sceptre wrote:

Wasn't it on the news months ago? I know I heard about it months ago.

About 30 cases of abuse, including the sexual abuse of minors, involving both military and U.N. civilian staff, were reported in the spring in the northeastern town of Bunia.

T'would appear you're right. First I heard of it was during the week on RTE's Aertel. I do recall other cases of sexual abuse in Africa countries from two years ago, and UN affiliated Police officers involved in prostitute trafficking in Kosovo in 2001.

Original point remains the same TBH. Put in a US/Iraqi context, heads would be expected to roll and there'd be some claiming that the buck should stop with Donald Rumsfeld...

boomdogman

The French destroyed the Ivorian Air Force as an act of retalitation for an attack.

Yes they are very knee jerk and very imperial, especially concerning French speaking countries, the former colonies. They never could forgive the Americans for not rescuing the situation at Diem Bien Phu either.

Sparks

sceptre wrote:

Wasn't it on the news months ago? I know I heard about it months ago.

Was that the report where those accused were Irish soldiers?

Nuttzz

No, I'd say you are thinking of the Irish solider caught with a prostitute in Eritrea.

OfflerCrocGod

First of all there has been media coverage, it doesn't get that much coverage because it's frankly not that big a deal Ivory Coast does not have oil and France isn't doing this unilaterally like the US - those UN cars going up in flames aren't there for a vacation! - also the fact that this is mainly an internal matter with rebels trying to attack a goverment and not an outside force trying to conquer a whole country based on some obvious lies about WMD makes this a lot less interesting to the media. The number of casualties is far smaller as is the peace keeping force - the US isn't a peace kepping force but I'll gloss over that.

Secondly - where are the French troops killing all these people I was promised in this video? All I see is a lot of green blurring some gunfire in the background and then lots of people lying on the ground - a few injured - but noticeably no French troops shooting people. There are troops though - if you click on my first attachment you will see them. They do seem a bit black for French people but maybe the just got a really good tan? Those troops are UN troops as you can see here that means that quite a few countries are involved:

Bangladesh, Benin, Bolivia, Brazil, Burkina Faso, China, Congo, Croatia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, France, Gambia, Ghana, Guatemala, Guinea, India, Ireland, Jordan, Kenya, Moldova, Morocco, Namibia, Nepal, Niger, Nigeria, Pakistan, Paraguay, Peru, Phillipines, Poland, Republic of Korea, Romania, Russian Federation, Senegal, Serbia and Montenegro, Togo, Tunisia, Uruguay, Yemen and Zambia

The French troops are well trained they most likely won't be stupid enough to fire on Civs for no reason, the other nations though.......who knows? The second attachment is what looks like French troops and they are show in-between shots of a headless corpse......the camera never pans to the troops, so you can't be sure they are even in the same place, it just lets the viewer make up it's own mind as to cause of death. Really odd that maybe the cameraman didn't want to stress his back by lifting the camera up and showing us who was around and where he actually was, it must be a heavy camera.

Thirdly the website that hosts that file is nothing but an Ivory Coast Goverment Radio website - not what you would call impartial now is it? There are good reasons why I don't trust that website and they are pretty much linked with the reasons why the UN troops were attacked and had to defend themselves. I think this BBC article sums them well.

National television and radio has been broadcasting fervent, not to say feverish, messages calling on people to take to the streets.

On occasions, the messages have strayed from the motivational to the incendiary.

United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan demanded what he called "hate media" be stopped immediately.

Sorry but I don't like the taste of propaganda - it's very sour, not my sort of thing at all. In the end people were stirred up by hate propaganda and decided to attack the UN troops, the troops defended themselves which is only expected and 10 or so people got killed. Now why is this in even the remotest sense like what is happening in Iraq with the Americans? 100'000 >> 10 The troops have been there for over two years keeping the peace between the goverment and the rebels, with little trouble. It's just suddenly the goverment has gotten tired of this and decided to try and launch some air strikes againts the rebels, somehow they blew up French troops instead. The French bitch-smacked the air-forces planes into pieces and frankly I couldn't agree more and so does the UN. This not like Iraq at all.

Redleslie2

Bomb kills Venezuela prosecutor.
Five killed in Brazil land clash.

There's two more stories that are being conveniently ignored by the anti-american tin foil hat crazies. But I bet some wacko will still attempt to smear the CIA over the Venezuela thing at least. :rolleyes:

the_syco

Redleslie2 wrote:

The French are beheading terrorists apparently. Link.

President Gbagbo wrote:

"I wasn't in the hospitals but everyone who went there said it. We can assume this testimony repeated by several people is true."

He wasn't there, but someone told him that it happened. Notice that no-one has claimed to have seen it, but that someone else has :rolleyes:
Seemingly, even though he didn't see it happen, it did.

BBC wrote:

On 6 November the Ivorian air force killed nine French peacekeepers while attacking the rebel stronghold of Bouake in the north of the country.

Mr Gbagbo suggested that, as he had not seen the bodies of the French soldiers, they may not exist.

Seemingly, if he didn't see it it didn't happen.

Redleslie2 wrote:

jessica lynch's rape.

Even the soldiers who "rescued" her doubt the story. As for "empting all her magazine's", that'd be kind of hard, as seemingly they wouldn't work due to the sand in them. The amount of current and ex military that nit-picked the entire story says something in its self, about how "true" it was.

=-=

[url=http://au.news.yahoo.com/041113/21/rpvy.html]Yahoo.com[/url] wrote:

More than 4,000 foreigners have been evacuated from the country, with civilians and United Nations staff being flown from Abidjan.

French patrols are still looking for foreigners who may be hiding in their homes.

The French military is coordinating the evacuation in Ivory Coast and other nations are also sending aircraft to the international airport in Abidjan.

The Royal Air Force has evacuated more than 200 British nationals to nearby Ghana.

The foreigners were forced to flee after more than five days of violent demonstrations and looting.

Get your people out, and let the country blow itself up, or is it a case of get your people out, and concentrate all your power on the conflict, so that you don't have to spare 25% of your army protecting your people?

=-=

But this wouldn't be the first time the president, or Liberian mercenaries allied to President Laurent Gbagbo's army, killed civilians;

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/03/09/ivorycoast.reut/]CNN.com[/url] wrote:

Rebel commander Ousmane Coulibaly said he believed more than 200 civilians were killed in Friday's attack on Bangolo. He blamed the deaths on Liberian mercenaries allied to President Laurent Gbagbo's army.

[url=http://www.usafricaonline.com/ivorycoasty2k.massacre.html]usafricaonline.com[/url] wrote:

120 civilians massacred in Ivory Coast by government forces
Survivors say government forces killed villagers, unarmed civilians

=-=

Finally, as Mr Gbagbo had 2 Sukhoi Fighter Jets, I'd say he has a few other nice toys. They may have been used in the bombing which killed the French, as they drop cluster bombs (they don't have air to surface missile's).

France has since sent over a few Mirage jets, which are pretty damn good, but may have not been much of a match to the Sukhoi's, so the airbase being bombed may have just being a tactial bombing, using the killings as a justification.

Hobbes

therecklessone wrote:

Another story that stayed under the radar so far...

Evidence of sex abuse by UN staff in Congo

Again, replace UN with US and Congo with Iraq, and this would be front page news.

Too early in the morning for me to go reading up on it. But I do recall the last comment in that news story before. It was spun as "Anti-UN" news around the the time of the US case for war and I did go looking up on it. It was actually a US contracting company that was running the prostitution. It also disappeared under the radar after this was found out.

Still yet to see the French video.

Hobbes

Redleslie2 wrote:

Bomb kills Venezuela prosecutor.

But I bet some wacko will still attempt to smear the CIA over the Venezuela thing at least. :rolleyes:

Hardly, but you did read the story right and not just title and made up your own opinion?

Let me quote...
He had been preparing a case against about 400 opposition members, including politicians, lawyers and businessmen, accused of supporting a short-lived coup against Mr Chavez in 2002.

I would be intrested how the media in Venezuela spin to say that Chavez killed him. :rolleyes:

Lemming

I downloaded and watched that large 103mb file of french troops apparently gunning down civilians and all I have to say is ...

"ummm. Where exactly was that in the video?"

The footage was *heavily* edited with lots of different scenes and I suspect, locations, meshed together. The french troops are only seen at the end, as opposed to the rather coloured looking troops at the start and middle of the footage when all the violence occurs.

The Corinthian

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Well... at least they didn't surrender this time...

sovtek

Sand wrote:

That said though, Im now convinced that the U.N. is the best option for Iraq. Lets introduce slavery, sexual exploitation of minors and shooting protestors into the mix.

Unlike what's going on now in Iraq, of course.

Yup - It reminds me of the way middle eastern regimes saturate their media with stories about Israel/Palestine and now Iraq to divert their peoples anger to external targets rather than to their own domestic failings.

Those failed Middle East regimes that had no amount of help from "us" you mean?
Of course we can throw Al Hurra (spelling) into that mix now.

At this stage, the same could maybe be said about the European media which will devote page after page to Americas failings, disasters and problems which can only help European leaders gloss over their own.

Yup, European leaders are no different there.
Luckily in Europe you have very mainstream access to various adversarial media as well as foreign media so as to be able to tell whose probably telling the truth.

sovtek

Redleslie2 wrote:

Stinks of rabble-rousing hate-mongering propaganda to me actually, a bit like booby trapped corpses and jessica lynch's rape.

Now red....take off your tin foil hat.

:rolleyes:

sovtek

therecklessone wrote:

Original point remains the same TBH. Put in a US/Iraqi context, heads would be expected to roll and there'd be some claiming that the buck should stop with Donald Rumsfeld...

Show us memo's that the equivalent of Donald or hell even Chirac either ordered or knew about these crimes and then I'd be doing the same...actually I'm already convinced Bush, Chirac and Martin should answer for supporting the overthrow of Aristide.

Redleslie2

sovtek wrote:

Now red....take off your tin foil hat.

:rolleyes:

I think I'll open a shop selling the bloody things.

Hairy Homer

The Corinthian wrote:

Well... at least they didn't surrender this time...

Now now Corinthian. In my experience, labelling an entire country as being prone to retreat and surrender can cause rancour and upset.

(With a little help from Google's translation tools)

Casseruola, Caldaia, Nero.

The Corinthian

Hairy Homer wrote:

Casseruola, Caldaia, Nero.

I was wondering how long it would take you to comment

Memnoch

i agree about the comments made regarding the video... doesn't really show what it says on the box. Also it does seem like the site is that of the ivory coast government.

All that being said, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to the history of the place and I haven't been following events there, or even know what was going on, maybe because it hasn't really been covered by any media here? :P

so I'll refrain from further comments on the topic. no love for "france" here from me but i'd like to point out that france doing or not doing something wrong, does not change or alter in any way what the US has done in iraq. Nor does it somehow invalidate all the arguements made by people on boards opposing the US's actions.

Maybe I can borrow the tin hat for a while?

Christian_H

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Wht is is Robert Fisk saying about "Troops & civilians never mixing..."... oh yea they doon't mix.

Histroy Proves this (excuse the use of the all proving catch phrase of the BB)

Sand

France admits Ivory Coast deaths

France has acknowledged that its troops in Ivory Coast killed about 20 people in early November during clashes with supporters of President Laurent Gbagbo.
A French defence ministry spokesman said the victims included both civilians and Ivorian soldiers.

The Ivory Coast government has put the number of Ivorians killed at 60 and condemned the French actions.

The deaths came during protests after France destroyed the Ivorian air force following attacks on its peacekeepers.

Nine French peacekeepers were killed as the loyalist army attacked rebel positions, breaking an 18-month ceasefire.

'Restrained force'

Defence ministry spokesman Jean-Francois Bureau said that French troops had acted in self-defence in the clashes, in which some 80 French troops had been injured.

The Ivorian police accused the French troops of firing without giving any warning at a crowd of protesters near a hotel in Abidjan; the French say they gave warning shots.

"There were phases of clashes that were extremely difficult and during which we maintain that our soldiers used force in a very moderate, very restrained way," Mr Bureau said.

Following anti-French protests, some 9,000 westerners were evacuated.

Former colonial power France has some 5,000 troops in Ivory Coast, along with 6,000 United Nations peacekeepers, monitoring a buffer zone between the rebel-held north and the loyalist south.

Well, looks like the French have admitted their involvement.

Only 20 dead, apparently including soldiers who can injure 80 french soldiers but not get a single kill - fairly moderate and restrained youd have to say. Perhaps the French should be asked to send soldiers to police the commemoration of Bloody Sunday.

bonkey

Sand wrote:

Well, looks like the French have admitted their involvement.

Their involvement in what?

if its "involvement in the Ivory Coast"...didn't we know that already?

if its "involvement in the deaths portrayed in the video?" Where do they say that? All I see is an admission that some people were killed...not that the people in the video were killed by French soldiers, as depicted in the video.

Only 20 dead, apparently including soldiers who can injure 80 french soldiers but not get a single kill - fairly moderate and restrained youd have to say.

No.

I'd have to say that there clearly isn't enough information in what you've just printed to be able to draw conclusions about how the troops behaved themselves (or not, as the case may be), especially considering that the versions of events from both sides clearly do not gel and neither side has been particularly forthcoming with verifiable details.

jc

Sand

if its "involvement in the deaths portrayed in the video?" Where do they say that? All I see is an admission that some people were killed...not that the people in the video were killed by French soldiers, as depicted in the video.

From article

France has acknowledged that its troops in Ivory Coast killed about 20 people in early November during clashes with supporters of President Laurent Gbagbo.

bus77

About 1.30 into the vid they start chanting U.S.A! U.S.A!, class protesting considering the French are involved.

bonkey

Sand wrote:

From article

So I'm right...its an admission that some people were killed...not that what the video depicts is in any way related.

No?

I mean...if I say that the video depicts Americans slaughtering Iraqis, and the Americans confirm that they have, in fact, killed some Iraqis....does that mean that this video also shows the US slaughtering Iraqis?

I don't think the French ever denied that there were people killed. What they denied were allegations about who they killed, how, and why, wasn't it? From what I can see, they still haven't changed their stance on this.

jc

Sand

So I'm right...its an admission that some people were killed...not that what the video depicts is in any way related.

Are you arguing there was a second incident where UN/French soldiers gunned down civillians?

We have a video and a BBC report from early November where UN/French troops are accused/seem to have killed civillians at a fairly peaceful protest.

Now we have a French Defence official admitting their troops opened fire at a protest killing 20 in the Ivory Coast in early november, civillians and soldiers so they claim - soldiers who couldnt get a single kill amongst 80 french injured. Thats some pretty good shooting on the part of the ivory coast soldiers to hit 80 but only wound them.

Now maybe its just me....but Im going out on a limb here and thinking that the video, the accusation and the admittance that their troops killed civillians at a protest are all linked somehow. Dare I say theyre all related to the same incident?

Dont worry - the irony of the UN being investigated for slaughtering civillians should protect them and France from serious investigation over their actions.

Victor

Sand wrote:

Now we have a French Defence official admitting their troops opened fire ....

" .... during clashes".

Sand wrote:

killing 20 in the Ivory Coast in early november, civillians and soldiers so they claim - soldiers who couldnt get a single kill amongst 80 french injured. Thats some pretty good shooting on the part of the ivory coast soldiers to hit 80 but only wound them.

In Fallujah the Americans claimed 2,000 insurgents killed for something like 38 American and 5 Iraqi army / national guard deaths. The 20K v 80I is not exceptional. Ask the Paras.

The Corinthian wrote:

Well... at least they didn't surrender this time...

Or change sides.

sovtek wrote:

Show us memo's that the equivalent of Donald

Was there stories yesterday (I think yesterday was Thursday) that the American general staff knew about abuses at Abu Gharib, etc. well into 2003.

bonkey

Sand wrote:

Are you arguing there was a second incident where UN/French soldiers gunned down civillians?

No, I'm arguing that there is no evidence that the atrocities alleged against them as shown in the video are not in any way supported or confirmed by this admission. I don't know how much cleared that ban be.

I mean...look...there's allegations that the US systematically abused prisoners throughout Iraq etc. There is an admission from the US that prisoners were abused. Does this make the allegations of systematic atrocity true? No, it doesn't. I'm pretty sure you argued as much at the time, so why the reluctance to apply the same logic to anyone who's not American?

We have a video and a BBC report from early November where UN/French troops are accused/seem to have killed civillians at a fairly peaceful protest.

Do we? We have a video which shows people being killed, and we have an admission that people were killed. That doesn't mean that people were killed in the manner alleged by those who produced the video, nor that the video actually depicts what happened.

Now we have a French Defence official admitting their troops opened fire at a protest killing 20 in the Ivory Coast in early november, civillians and soldiers so they claim - soldiers who couldnt get a single kill amongst 80 french injured.

The wounded vs mortality for the US campaign in Iraq, is a ratio of about 10:1, I believe. I'm only guessing, but I would imagine that if you only included combat situations (as opposed to the various bombing guerrila/terrorist attacks), that would rise significantly. 80 injured with no fatalaties....doesn't stretch my credulity, unless you're asking me to also believe that the US is fabricating most of its figures.

Thats some pretty good shooting on the part of the ivory coast soldiers to hit 80 but only wound them.

Really? Do you have any comparable incidents where poorly-equipped and usually-ill-trained under-developed-nation army/militia have done significantly better against a force from a developed-nation's army? I can't think of a single one in the modern day.

Now maybe its just me....but Im going out on a limb here and thinking that the video, the accusation and the admittance that their troops killed civillians at a protest are all linked somehow. Dare I say theyre all related to the same incident?

Sand, you can say whatever you like, but saying it doesn't make it any more probable or true.

The Ivorian President appealed to the US a few weeks ago to protect them from the French acts of terrorism, where they attacked his airforce in an unprovked manner. The French later admitted to attacking the airforce in retaliation. Does this admission mean that the Ivorian President was right and that the attack was an unprovoked acto of terrorism?

It should, using your logic, but quite how it should escapes me.

The French admission of civilian deaths sounds more like "yes, people died, but not in the manner shown or in the situation alleged".

Dont worry - the irony of the UN being investigated for slaughtering civillians should protect them and France from serious investigation over their actions.

I'd imagine that they'll come under about the same typical lack of scrutiny that the US and most other powerful nations allow themselves to come under for their actions....if thats what you mean....yes.

jc

Elfish

Redleslie2 wrote:

Bomb kills Venezuela prosecutor.
Five killed in Brazil land clash.

There's two more stories that are being conveniently ignored by the anti-american tin foil hat crazies. But I bet some wacko will still attempt to smear the CIA over the Venezuela thing at least. :rolleyes:

"some wacko will still attempt to smear the CIA over the Venezuela thing" ........ didn't you see Donnacha O'Briain's international award winning documentary about the US funded coup in Venezuela www.chavezthefilm.com?


Check it out ... RTE showed it so you may be able to get it in Extravision - then ask yourself if one has to be a "wacko" as you put it to link the CIA with dirty tricks in Venezuela.