[article]Shelbourne count the cost of future success

thejollyrodger

Shelbourne count the cost of future success

Shelbourne count the cost of future success
Sunday November 21st 2004
http://www.unison.ie/sportsdesk/stories.php3?ca=12&si=1291494

SEÁN RYAN

THE cost of winning the eircom League of Ireland title has risen dramatically in the past decade - and Shelbourne, who retained the title for the first time in their 109-year history on Friday night, signalled a further rise by signing three of the League's highest earners for next season.

In 1992, when Shelbourne ended a 30-year barren spell with a League victory, it cost the equivalent of €250,000 to run the club, with the players' wages accounting for approximately €112,000 of that. At the time, there were only two full-time players on the staff, and wages were paid for the duration of the playing season, which was roughly 40 weeks.

When Shels completed the League and Cup double in 2000, the cost of running the club had risen to €750,000, there were still only two full-time players, but all staff were paid for the 52 weeks of the year. Players' wages accounted for approximately €528,000 that season.

This season, the cost of running Shelbourne has risen to €1.8m, with players' wages accounting for almost half of that figure. The club has a totally full-time set-up now, with over 20 players plus managers and coaches to be paid.

In what has undoubtedly been the best year in the club's history, incorporating a best-ever performance by an Irish club in European competition, it must be a worry for the directors that gate receipts (excluding the Lansdowne Road game against Deportivo de la Coruna) brought in only €450,000, just 25 per cent of what the club needs to break even.

It is a constant battle for Chief Executive Ollie Byrne, Chairman Finbarr Flood and the other directors to raise the remainder of that €1.8m, but by signing Glen Crowe, Colin Hawkins and Bobby Ryan from their main Dublin rivals Bohemians, they are clearly stating their confidence in the club's future. However, they are not breaking the bank in doing so, for the newcomers' wages are factored into continuing European success.

Shels raised the bar for League of Ireland clubs in Europe by advancing to the third round of the Champions' League and Chairman Flood states: "It is essential that we do that again. Once you have a full-time squad you have to make the breakthrough.

"We have learned an awful lot on the business side as well as the football side from our extended run in Europe this year. The clubs we played have all shared their knowledge with us. And the first thing you learn is the size of the task - it costs €80m to run Deportivo and €35m to run Lille, that's what we were dealing with.

"The most striking thing you learn is that none of the clubs on the continent own their own ground - they are all supplied by the municipal authorities at nominal fees. Lille are having a new ground built for them by the city council. At present, we in Shelbourne are paying for five different places for our teams to play and train in, at a cost of €120,000 a year. If we had one complex for all that it would be a big saving."

Shels have problems with their home ground, Tolka Park, when it comes to the Champions' League games. They had to move the Deportivo game to Lansdowne Road, as Tolka would not have passed UEFA's requirements for a game of that magnitude.

Flood revealed that plans are in train for a move to another stadium.

"The City Council were prepared to give us land in Finglas for a stadium which would have been held in trust for Shelbourne and the council. We would pay for the building from the sale of Tolka Park. Unfortunately, the residents objected to that move.

"We are looking at various options, but want to make a move as soon as possible. The problem with Tolka Park is that we can't increase its capacity, and if you're going to compete at Champions' League level you have to be equipped to do it."

Chief Executive Ollie Byrne emphasised the club's ambitions when he said: "If we advance to the group stages we have a problem with our ground and with our lights. We are hoping to deal with that very very shortly. The indications are that we will be making an announcement before the end of the year."

Shelbourne director Martin Fitzpatrick, who is also the business correspondent of this paper, makes a good case for investment in his club.

"If properly supported and properly managed, a League of Ireland club could be a very interesting business. Shels' experience shows that if you are a venture capitalist and want an off the wall investment, you couldn't go far wrong with a League of Ireland club, especially one guaranteed European football. The risks aren't all that high.

"An investment of €2m - €3m would guarantee success in the League and European football. Then you only need three wins and you're in the knock-out stages of the Champions' League or the UEFA Cup, which would guarantee a €5m return.

"The payback for the investment involved is very short term, which is crucial for financiers. The risk/reward ratio in League of Ireland football is thus potentially very high."

However, while the hope of a venture capitalist throwing in his lot with the club is greater than the expectation, the directors have to get on with raising that €1.8m which will keep the Reds afloat in 2005.

That means a lot of hard work in the months ahead, especially when there is no income from football. Raffles, dog nights, golf classics and a dinner at which Bobby Robson is guest speaker are all planned. The two bars at Tolka Park will tick over, there will also be rental income from the ground itself, sponsorship money and season ticket sales. It's a hard slog.

The rewards for being champions of the League are not as great as might be expected. The prize money from eircom amounts to €18,000, and there is also a guarantee of TV income as part of an agreement with a continental TV company which takes an option on Shels' European games.

Of more immediate importance is UEFA's contribution, which is due in December. For qualifying for the Champions' League in 2004, Shels receive 150,000 Swiss Francs, plus 80,000 Swiss Francs for each of the four rounds of competition in which they participated. This amounts to a welcome Christmas windfall of €300,000.

A meeting to outline the plans for the future of Shelbourne FC has been arranged for Tolka Park on Thursday, November 25 (8.0) to which all the club's fans have been invited. It should be an interesting evening.

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The meeting is changed to Dec 2nd.

http://www.shelbournefc.ie/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1334

MrJoeSoap

Should be an interesting meeting. Cheers for that!

thejollyrodger

can you let us know what is said at the meeting if your going ??

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thejollyrodger wrote:

can you let us know what is said at the meeting if your going ??

You've probably seen this already

http://www.shelbournefc.ie/latestnews.php#113

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica,sans-serif][size=-2][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica,sans-serif][size=-1]Agenda for Special Supporters Meeting

[/size][/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica,sans-serif][size=-2] Monday 22 Nov 2004 --Meeting to be held on Thursday 2nd December


[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica,sans-serif][size=-2]Agenda for General Meeting of Shelbourne Supporters on Thursday December 2nd, Tolka Park, at 8.00pm, to discuss future plans & development of the club and to review the past season.

Members of the Club Board and Team Manager Pat Fenlon will be in attendance

1. Proposal to hold Dinner Dance / Players Awards & Presentations
2. Fundraising
3. Proposed move to new Stadium / Campus
4. Christmas Raffle
5. Club Shop
6. Security Issues
7. Community Development
8. Schoolboy Section
9. Away Travel / Supporters’ behaviour
10. Matchday Programme
11. European Experience / League win – Video / DVD
12. Any other business


All Shelbourne supporters are urged to attend. [/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]

thejollyrodger

I wonder will there be any talk about the new Shels stadium. There are posts saying that it could be in Finglas and estimates put the stadium size at 6,000 with shops etc in the development.

I hope Shels move out of Tolka Park because of the liability of flooding and there is no room for expansion, problems with electricty for Flood lighting, seating capacity etc. However the size of the new stadium (6 k ) isnt exactly inspiring. It should be at least 10,000 if they want to really challenge for the group stages of the Champions league/UEFA Cup.

If they do go ahead with 6,000 seater stadium in north Dublin, I just hope that they develop a stadium which is easily upgraded with a second teir if need be in future years to come !!

RuggieBear

Hope Shelbourne do well in Europe other wise they will be screwed.....

thejollyrodger

I think they can defintely get to the third round again possibly beat the likes of Lille into the UEFA Cup. The club has broken that mental barrier and now know what it takes to reach the third round. The club is more professional and mentally stronger after winning the E.L and finally they have expanded their squad to arguable one of the best squads ever in the E.L.

The government should be helping some way to build the new stadium

RuggieBear

thejollyrodger wrote:

I think they can defintely get to the third round again possibly beat the likes of Lille into the UEFA Cup. The club has broken that mental barrier and now know what it takes to reach the third round. The club is more professional and mentally stronger after winning the E.L and finally they have expanded their squad to arguable one of the best squads ever in the E.L.

Yeah, i think that is true but Shels would want to be careful and not end up like Leeds....spending to much money to quickly... :eek:

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thejollyrodger wrote:

There are posts saying that it could be in Finglas

I think Finglas has fallen flat, word around the campfire is that Swords could be the destination.

thejollyrodger wrote:

. However the size of the new stadium (6 k ) isnt exactly inspiring. It should be at least 10,000 if they want to really challenge for the group stages of the Champions league/UEFA Cup.

Agree on the uninspiring size of the new ground.

But the world and it's mother knows that the current size of the Shels home support would be lost in 10,000 capacity stadium.

The question must be posed, that would it be worth spending the amount of money on a 10,000 seater that would be only full on one or two occasions in the year, depending on success in European Competition.

Remember, only 7,000 people were in Landsdowne for the Lille game.

RuggieBear

forgive me if this sounds stupid but couldn't Shels (or another EL club) come together with the IRFU and help rebuild/redesign Donnybrook and then ground share or something

KdjaCL

RuggieBear wrote:

forgive me if this sounds stupid but couldn't Shels (or another EL club) come together with the IRFU and help rebuild/redesign Donnybrook and then ground share or something

See seans post above , only Cork have the ability to regularly get 10k at a game.
Bohs Pats and Rovers highest in last 10 years would be 6k for a league game.
Shels was 600 inc away fans. Goverment cant and wont help as help one help all. Unless there was votes to be gained and if they did help the FAI they would spend it on holidays etc:

Shels will need a big chunk of cash just to acquire land unless a big company/ builder comes forth to invest, which i assume they are in talks with.

kdjac

gimmick

thejollyrodger wrote:

If they do go ahead with 6,000 seater stadium in north Dublin, I just hope that they develop a stadium which is easily upgraded with a second teir if need be in future years to come !!

A second tier? For what? All your fans? Need i remind you of 7000 in Lansdowne, at least half of which were neutral eL fans? Or the game in Tolka Vs Waterford, where you could have clinched the title and there was about 3000 there?

I would hate to see the 'crowds' Shels would get if they werent top of the league, with a squad bursting to the seams with quality.

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KdjaC the bitter one!! wrote:

Shels will need a big chunk of cash just to acquire land unless a big company/ builder comes forth to invest, which i assume they are in talks with.

The moeny is coming from the sale of Tolka, or the remaining lease on it or something like that.

The money will be there.

We are $h€£$ after all!

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I will put what was originally here back up as soon as I have heard if it is true.

Does anyone have tonights Herald?

Edit again : It was a hoax, sorry bout that.

thejollyrodger

Tolka is going to get a right few bob for Shels and hopefully they will get a decent site. A lot of the bigger clubs like Deportivo la Coruna etc dont actually own their own stadium. They selll it off to the government and then lease it back at a really good intrest rate since they are flying the flag. Something like that should be done for one and all if the club are professional enough to pay back.

If Shels are going to continue to raise their game every year and are serious about going for Champions league/UEFA Cup then they have to plan for the future and go for 10,000 seater stadium that can be upgraded in the future. Playing games in landsdowne road is not like playing at home.

They need to find a solid fan base nearby. Maybe thats the reason Shels didnt get high crowds like Cork City.

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thejollyrodger wrote:

Maybe thats the reason Shels didnt get high crowds like Cork City.

Also the fact that there are six teams playing out of Dublin in the League :

Shels, Bohs, Rovers, Pats, UCD, CHF.

Granted, UCD and CHF have very small numbers, but there is only one team in Cork ( does Cobh Ramblers count, how is numbers at their games anyone? ).

The fact that there are 4 clubs competing for fans in the city of Dublin will have an obvious impact on the crowds of each club.

gimmick

seansouth wrote:

does Cobh Ramblers count, how is numbers at their games anyone?

Ramblers are a sad state. Ive been to a few of their games this season, biggest attendence was 200. Of course the fools slipped up big time a few months back. They decided to sell tickets for their game Vs a Roy Keane XI (it turned out to be Man Us U20 team, with only Keane and Chadwick being 1st teamers), on the day they were playing Finn Harps at home. Rather than doing stubs, and not being able to buy a ticket without one, they abandoned the idea at the last minute. Had they even charged €3 a head, it would have made them about €20k, as Turners X was filled to capacity on the night of the game 9even though u could hear a pin drop).

That said, they are building a nice team, mostly local lads, and in their play of season were getting crowds upwards of 600 eevry week, better than some premier teams.

seansouth wrote:

The fact that there are 4 clubs competing for fans in the city of Dublin will have an obvious impact on the crowds of each club.

Thats a lazy argument, lazy and untrue. Combine the attendances of those clubs, and you may get 5000. Shels average was about 1500 (of course they will say that the 24000 is not included here. it actually is!!! ), Bohs about 1700, SPA 1500 and shams about 7-800.

treefingers

you also have to take into account the respective populations of dublin and cork. i'd say cork city and bohs shels pats shams all have about the same % of the population to draw from. dublin is far far bigger than cork...

Slash/ED

gimmick wrote:

Thats a lazy argument, lazy and untrue. Combine the attendances of those clubs, and you may get 5000. Shels average was about 1500 (of course they will say that the 24000 is not included here. it actually is!!! ), Bohs about 1700, SPA 1500 and shams about 7-800.

You're way off, if foot.ie is to be believed. Shels and Bohs average around 1,000 more than you say.

And there's nothing abot the new ground being 6,000, the person who said that was one bloke on our messageboard oddly enough making his first and only post, wouldn't believe it for a minute.

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When people come to Tolka, they only take notice of the people in the New Stand, and fail to see that the Main Stand is nearly always full, plus a few hangers on down in the Ballybough End.

That I would say is up at about the 2,000 mark.

Still a bad number anyway.

Slash/ED

Here's the premier averages according to foot.ie, missing the last few matches which would push the averages up I'd guess, aswell as the ones they say is missing. Last years in brackets.

PREMIER DIVISION
Bohs 2504 (2625) (missing Derry 2)
Cork 3607 (4147)
Derry 1780 (2265)
Drogheda 1529 (1662) (missing Bohs 2 and Shels 2)
Dublin City 651 (missing Cork 2)
Longford 1171 (1586) (missing Cork 2 and Derry 2)
Pat's 1758 (2971)
Rovers 1188 (2038) (missing Cork 2, Derry 2, Drogheda 2 and Shels 2)
Shels 2325 (2573) (missing Rovers 2)
Waterford 1860 (2520) (missing Dublin City)

gimmick

To be fair Slash, I reckon an awful lot of the attendences are just guessed. I mean at the Cross for Fridays game, the guesstimates were between 6500, and 10000. The people on foot.ie are exagerrating (i should know all about it, Im a city fan. Apparently we have 2million at every away game) those figures Id reckon.

Slash/ED

There guessing yeah but they're normally accurate, and they take the most conserative guess as a rule. Bohs attendence is offical, but the guesstimates of their crowds have always been within 200 of their actual number. Pats attendence midway through the season was given and the guesstimates were below the actual figure, but not by much. They're suprisingly accurate I'd say, give or take around 200 for each game.

eirebhoy

Is there any obvious reason why attendances are down so much from last season?

Slash/ED

I think they've told people to be as conservative as possible on their crowd estimates this season, as people were exagerating them so much, so the crowds might not be down as much as they seem

Dub13

I think Shels should move out to North East Dublin,I have tought this for a while.North East Dublin has no EPL club and has NO history of one.There is a big young population who love/play football.Areas like Coolock,Baldoyle,Killbarick,Sutton,Portmarnock etc etc have great potential in my opinion.Its just my view.What do you think...?

gimmick

Dub13 wrote:

I think Shels should move out to North East Dublin,I have tought this for a while.North East Dublin has no EPL club and has NO history of one.There is a big young population who love/play football.Areas like Coolock,Baldoyle,Killbarick,Sutton,Portmarnock etc etc have great potential in my opinion.Its just my view.What do you think...?

Sure that just smacks of MK Don esque desperation and franchising. Why dont Shelbourne play...in Shelbourne?

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gimmick wrote:

Why dont Shelbourne play...in Shelbourne?

Because there is no area of Dublin called that.

Same as there is no Bohemian or Shamrock.

RuggieBear

seansouth wrote:

Because there is no area of Dublin called that.

Same as there is no Bohemian or Shamrock.

I live beside Shelboure Rd..... They can play in my front garden:D

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RuggieBear wrote:

I live beside Shelboure Rd..... They can play in my front garden:D

Will you put out two deckchairs for the fans?

RuggieBear

seansouth wrote:

Will you put out two deckchairs for the fans?

And seeing how it would be an all seater stadium.....those chairs will cost!!!

Slash/ED

Well, the majority of Shels Northside fans do come from NE Dublin. This seems to be where our support, since moving into Tolka Park, has really grown. One of the rumours about our new stadium is that it will be in that area alright.

Dub13

Slash/ED wrote:

Well, the majority of Shels Northside fans do come from NE Dublin. This seems to be where our support, since moving into Tolka Park, has really grown. One of the rumours about our new stadium is that it will be in that area alright.

Well I for one think it would be a good idea,its huge untapped market.

And going to Finglas does not sound like MK Dons...?Finglas is a Bohs strong hold.

thejollyrodger

Shelbourne are leaders in more ways than one
Emmet Malone


The natural thing might have been to dwell on their successes over the past few months and the nerve they showed late on in the face of a determined late charge by Cork City, but when Pat Fenlon joined his players in the dressing-room at Richmond Park on Friday night, moments after Shelbourne had completed their title defence with a goalless draw, it was primarily of the future that he spoke.

It has become something of cliché for managers to talk about taking their side to "the next level", but after a season in which Shelbourne led the league from beginning to end and confirmed their status as the country's best team, it's not that surprising that Fenlon signalled to his current squad that he is looking to raise the stakes again at Tolka Park over the next couple of years.

Referring to the club having already signed Glen Crowe, Bobby Ryan, Colin Hawkins, Richie Baker and Gary O'Neill for next year, Drogheda United manager Paul Doolin (no slouch with a chequebook himself these days) joked that his rival might as well be given next year's silverware as well.

The quality of the signings will certainly cause alarm elsewhere and Shelbourne will probably start the new campaign in March as favourites to complete a hat-trick of titles, but they are scarcely so dominant that they can hope to have it all their own way. If Cork City can pick up where they left off then they definitely look capable of providing a welcome and, one presumes, well-supported challenge from the south.

Consistency was a problem for Pat Dolan's side for two thirds of this season's campaign, but when they finally found their stride, the club proved almost unstoppable. The league badly needs strong contenders from outside the capital and City, right now, look best equipped to take on the current champions.

Having already added to his squad and shown the scale of his ambition by targeting the likes of Crowe himself, Doolin may yet oversee the completion of Drogheda United's transformation into serious, season long title contenders. If so and if the club's long-term development can be sustained then that too will represent a positive development.

Similarly, Stephen Kenny's plan to develop Derry City into a full-time outfit should dramatically improve the club's fortunes after three years in which the Candystripes have occasionally toyed with relegation and invariably failed to drag themselves out of the bottom half of the table.

Within the capital it will be interesting to see how Gareth Farrelly will cope with the loss of so many Bohemians players (Damien Lynch and Stephen Caffrey have also already gone and a couple more are expected to follow) at a time when money is once again tight at Dalymount Park.

And then there is the question of whether Roddy Collins can live up to his own hype at Shamrock Rovers. With the club now finally on the brink of getting into Tallaght, expectations among supporters are set to soar. Collins is not lacking in self belief, but it remains to be seen whether he can bring anything like the sort of success he achieved at Bohemians.

Still, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that, as things stand just now, Shelbourne will again have the winning of the title within their power. They claimed this year's title with just one point less than last year's total of 69 points and while there was some shift in the pattern of their play - as demonstrated by the fact that they both scored and conceded more goals than in 2003 - the quality of their play was fairly similar for the most part.

And five costly new recruits suggests Fenlon intends that next year's team will be noticeably better and the squad more rounded in the options it offers, but it is far from a risk-free strategy. Making ends meet at National League clubs is an endless struggle and nobody at Shelbourne pretends that they are an exception.

Despite emerging in recent years as the strongest and most consistently successful side in the country, the club remains poorly supported, with crowds at Tolka Park often falling short of 2,000. When Deportivo La Coruna came to town, more than 10 times that number attended and it seems clear that when Fenlon talks about "the next level" it is progress in Europe that he is referring too.

For all the talk of being "within half an hour of a place in the Champions League group stages", however, it would be foolhardy to suggest that last week's signings would come anywhere close to bridging the gap between Shelbourne and the likes of La Coruna or Lille.

The challenge for Fenlon, Ollie Byrne and everybody else at the club then is to gradually start closing the gap while maximising the return on each year's involvement in European football, maintaining their strong position at home and avoiding another financial crisis. It's a delicate balancing act and one that could, in a variety of ways, end badly.

It's also an approach that obliges others to follow and if the league as a whole doesn't start to become a great deal more effective at generating income, then it's impossible to see how clubs are going to sustain full-time set-ups in such a way that failure to achieve a top-two finish doesn't immediately prompt a crash.

Bohemians already appear to be struggling to keep up, but hopefully the race is only starting and there will opportunities for well-managed and forward-thinking clubs to make up ground.

What's clear for the moment, however, is that it is very much Shelbourne who are making the early running.

© The Irish Times

Good article there by Emmet Malone, he was critical of the E.L before but agrees that there defintely has been progress. The major problem facing the league is gate receipts. Shels only 2,000 at some of their games. And if a club really wants to grow they need a solid fan base. Shel have to move to a part of Dublin where they have a big catchment (like shams & tallaght) and can get the crowds that Cork get.

KdjaCL

seansouth wrote:

A

The fact that there are 4 clubs competing for fans in the city of Dublin will have an obvious impact on the crowds of each club.

It only affects Shels tbh , Bohs and Pats have got sell outs in recent seasons, Rovers well this is the same team who had 22k at a league game vs Bohs in the RDS, they have the fans just nowhere to play. The fans are there for all , Shels have to keep winning to keep their fans which are mostly fair weather as we have seen how many they get before they won the last 2 titles.

kdjac

gimmick

Da Meedja wrote:

Despite emerging in recent years as the strongest and most consistently successful side in the country, the club remains poorly supported, with crowds at Tolka Park often falling short of 2,000. When Deportivo La Coruna came to town, more than 10 times that number attended and it seems clear that when Fenlon talks about "the next level" it is progress in Europe that he is referring too.

Next level? there were NOT 24000 people supporting Shels there that evening. I reckon at least 1/3 of that crowd were there just to see Depor, while half of the crowd were totally neutral.

thejollyrodger wrote:

Shel have to move to a part of Dublin where they have a big catchment (like shams & tallaght) and can get the crowds that Cork get.

No, Shels could move where ever they want, they still wont get the crowds. Dublin isnt all that hard to commute around, with Dart, Luas, and an excellent bus service. I refuse to buy into that its Shels' location that is holding crowds away from them.

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gimmick wrote:

Next level? there were NOT 24000 people supporting Shels there that evening. I reckon at least 1/3 of that crowd were there just to see Depor, while half of the crowd were totally neutral.

Were you at that game?

RuggieBear

gimmick wrote:

No, Shels could move where ever they want, they still wont get the crowds. Dublin isnt all that hard to commute around, with Dart, Luas, and an excellent bus service. I refuse to buy into that its Shels' location that is holding crowds away from them.

I actually went by the stadium for the first time ever last thursday (heading to the airport and the taximan was taking me for a ride). Never knew where it was or how the hell to get to it....

gimmick

seansouth wrote:

Were you at that game?

No, didnt feel i wanted to jump on the bandwagon. I know many who were there, and judging by the athmosphere on the telly (oh the barstooler in me ), it didnt seem like it was exactly a partizan crowd.

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gimmick wrote:

I know many who were there, and judging by the athmosphere on the telly

So, you are going on hearsay and RTÉ's brilliant sound quality?

I was there, and I can tell you, that both sides of the ground were shouting for Shels at one stage or another, apart from the 8 Dépor fans!

I'm sure anyone who was there will confirm that for you.

Now, I am not claiming that everyone there was a Shels supporter, far from it, but they were for that night.

I am sure that a lot of them turned up simply because it was a "big name" side, in fact the turn out to the Lille match proves this, but what I will tell you is that as the game went on, and Shels actually made a good fist of things, the crowd became more and more partizan.

I would say that your "half the crowd was totally neutral" is an error too. People went to see an eL team playing in the Champions League Third Qualifying Round, whether it was Shels or CVFC or any other team you care to mention, people came out to support the eL side, and also to see Dépor.

Remember everyone on here with their comments of support for Shels, that feeling was reflected country wide.

"Ah sure, wouldn't it be great if they did it"

Let me ask you this, was everyone of the million and a half that were in Turners X for the Inter-two-bob cup match a die hard Cork fan?

cournioni

There was a really good atmosphere at that game. And was definately a partizan crowd. Don't let the crappy RTE mic's fool you...

gimmick

seansouth wrote:

Let me ask you this, was everyone of the million and a half that were in Turners X for the Inter-two-bob cup match a die hard Cork fan?

No, but there certainly werent as many 'fly by nights'. Not to mention that yes, it was only the inter toto cup, we still pulled in the best part of 10000 for the Nijmegen and Nantes games. Not exactly 'attractive' opposition I'm sure you'll agree.

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gimmick wrote:

No, but there certainly werent as many 'fly by nights'.

If by "fly by nights" you are talking about the bandwagon brigade, then fair enough. Of course the Champions League will attract a larger crowd out.

But still, the majority of the people were there to support Shels, the eL team, as I am sure the majority of people in Turners X were, against whatever opposition.

I don't think there were many people in Landsdowne that night who were actively 'supporting' Dépor, in fact I know there weren't.

Behind the goal, in I think the East Stand, there were flags and banners from many eL fans, of many clubs, including Bohs, Pats, Rovers, Drogs and even Cork, all there to show genuine support for Shelbourne FC.

Brought a tear to the eye.