The Enigma of Robbie Keane

GuanYin

Very good Dion Fanning piece in the Indo today, highlighting the pros and cons of having Robbie Keane in the side.

I tend to agree with the article wholeheartedly and think now that it might be a time to try and blood McGeady and Elliot and hope they develop into premiership class players.

If you remember that Robbie was a wolves player when he joined the Irish setup, then the idea of trying to hone two unpolished gems in lower divisions isn't so absurd.

As it stands, if one of them showed potential at international level I'd like to see them partner Morrison against the minnows, as Clinton - for me - does more for the teams attack on a regular basis than Keane does.

Kingp35

he is the countries all time record goal scorer whether he does more for the team or not he scores the bloody goals so why in the hell would you drop him??? Come on mate would you drop raul coz all he does is score goals?? i doubt it!! by all means get the younger players playing but you dont drop the countries greatest ever goal scorer and at the age of 24!!! seriously wake up

patrick

Pigman II

Have to agree with Kingp35. Whilst I'm not Robbies biggest fan, until someone better comes along (and btw that's not McGeady or Elliot) he's still an automatic choice on the teamsheet .... even if he is only 6th on mine!

BTW, whilst it's an undeniable fact he has scored THE MOST GOALS for Ireland ... he certainly isn't imho 'the countries greatest ever goal scorer' in any rational meaning of the term.

eirebhoy

Kingp35 wrote:

he is the countries all time record goal scorer whether he does more for the team or not he scores the bloody goals so why in the hell would you drop him???

And in the 21 matches he has scored in Ireland have never lost over the 90 minutes.

We have to remember that Keane is around the same age as people like O'Shea, Miller and Richie bloody Partridge. This is certainly not "as good as it gets" for Keane.

Kingp35

what i meant by the countries greatest ever goal scorer was simply that he has scored the most goals.IMO he is the only player ireland have is capable of scoring on a regular basis so dropping him would be crazy.Clinton Morrison is ok but lets be honest he wouldnt get his game for most teams as for the young lads they need alot more work and training to be ready for international football.

Gotta agree with this eirebhoy too keane is only 24 and is still learning the game so he will improve as a player lets not forget that

GuanYin

The Majority of his goals have been against group whipping boys and of course he takes penalties.

I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm just saying if we are going to be overly reliant on one player for goals, he isn't the sort of player you'd want.

Kingp35

well if we are going to be overly relying on one player to score the goals he is the only one we can!

thejollyrodger

Very intresting article. I agree with a lot of what is said in the beginning but it does go off in a tangent towards the end saying "what will become of Robbie". I think he will always get a club if things dont work out at Spurs.

Robbie is always going to be included in the Ireland team for the simple reason that he is our highest goal scorer and is the most likely person to score for us even if he does all that stupid flicks faints etc. That really doesnt say much for the rest of the strikers in the team. Robbie is probably one of the hardest players to work with and Clinton has done great to work with him so far.

Kerr is probably one of the best managers we have ever had so he is the best man to address the shortcomings in Robbie's game. I just hope that Kerr can sit down with him with the DVD's of what he does right and what he is doing wrong and try to integrate him better into the team.

I think by September/October 2005 Robbie can be properly judged.

eirebhoy

Elliott scored again today. 9 goals this season and he only started around 10 or 11.

Harry2001

A player who scores the amount of goals at International level like Keane does is invaluable, some people are just never happy like the people that call for Owen to be dropped by England because he does not score in every game but when other players get a chance up front they do bugger all.

If you don't want him we'll have him

dirkey_wynne

It's a very good article. I think he's a great journalist - my favourite sports journalist by a country mile. I think I've only ever seen one article of his that I didn't particularly like. It's pretty much opening up a debate which was on here recently. I agree with the article. I think he's overrated. But that's my opinion.

cournioni

Robbie Keane is very similar to Andy Cole. How many chances does he need before he actually scores?!

Dewey

I've always liked Robbie but the last few games for Ireland he has been very frustrating to watch. I dont like when fans say althought Keane has 24 goals in 56 matches he should have around 30 goals. i dont why people say that, yes robbie should be scoring 2 or 3 goals instead of 1 but he still has a fanstantic record for Ireland. he is only 24, and players dont reach there pect until 28. So plenty of time for Keane.
I would NEVER consider dropping Keane at the moment because when Ireland score robbie is on the score sheet most of the time. And like what Harry2001 said, it is invaluable for a player like Robbie to score at international level.

dirkey_wynne

I wouldn't drop him either. YOu can't. He's the best of what we have at the moment. I still think he's overrated, and even though he's our top goalscorer, I really don't stand by the argument that he's our best ever striker. But you can't drop him. No way.

pickarooney

Nah, I wouldn't drop him, but use every available opportunity to find a partner who works well with him, whether or not that player is truly Premiership/International standard.

Iago

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Robbie Keane is very similar to Andy Cole. How many chances does he need before he actually scores?!

Probably the most telling quote of all the replies.

I think that at the present time Robbie Keane is invaluable for Ireland.

Now that I've got that out of the way, let me state that I don't like Keane as a player. Too often he chooses the wrong option, or runs himself into a blind alley. He refuses to pass until he is left with no option but to do so, and even then he picks the wrong pass.

His teamwork is absymal, and his attitude when things aren't going his way leaves a lot to be desired. He scores goals for Ireland and so he gets picked, and he's a better option than Morrisson or Doherty but he misses a lot of chances too.

Lets be honest:
Henry, Trezuguet,
Van Nistlerooy, robben,
Totti, Vieri,
Raul, Torres,
Owen, Rooney,
Ronaldo, Rivaldo,
Figo, Cristiano Ronaldo,

and even
Larsson, Ibrahimavic,

he isn't in the same class as any of these players at the moment.

thejollyrodger

I would have liked to see a Morrison----Elliott partnership to see how things worked out.

Since a lot of the chances created by the midfield are real chances and if things are kept simple we should win 3 or 4 nill in a lot of friendlies. But dropping Keane is a tough one.

Next match is Portugal and I dont think Kerr will experiment that much up front for it.

BaZmO*

dirkey_wynne wrote:

and even though he's our top goalscorer, I really don't stand by the argument that he's our best ever striker

So then, in your humble opinion what defines a great striker if it's not his goal scoring record???

Sposs

syke wrote:

The Majority of his goals have been against group whipping boys and of course he takes penalties.

I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm just saying if we are going to be overly reliant on one player for goals, he isn't the sort of player you'd want.

i wouldn't agree with that he has scored against

the dutch twice,
germany and spain in the world cup,
turkey in the play offs
russia,denmark,czech republic.
So you would hardly call them whipping boys.

The Rooster

IMO Robbie is our greatest ever goalscorer, easily. And he'll get better.

He's a terrific player, fantastic ability - more than any other Irish striker ever. But he's going through a bad phase, and I cant decide whether he's in need of a brain, or a good kickin'. Hopefully its just the latter.

Without doubt he has been very frustrating in his last 4 or 5 games. He's doing relatively well I suppose, but not nearly as well as he's capable of - and most of whats wrong is simply down to bad decision making. He has to do everything himself, or occassionally he'll pass to Duffer. He'll pass to nobody else unless he absolutely has no other option. I dunno whether thats down to selfishness or does he just believe if he or Duffer doesnt do something, nobody will?

Kerr either hasnt realised there's a problem, or hasnt handled it well. I think Kerr has done a great job in picking teams, but his substitution policy has been mixed to poor. A good example was the Cyprus game where we were 3-0 with 10 mins or so to go, and Kerr has decided to give Lee a run. Instead of taking off Keane, who had been poor (for him), he took off Clintáin, who'd been brilliant (for him). The message a Keane substitution would have sent to both Robbie and Clint would have done wonders for both players IMO. And its not very often we'll have the luxury of being able to taken off Keano in a competitive game.

PS I hear rumours that Everton are going to bid for RK in Jan.

eirebhoy

Sposs wrote:

i wouldn't agree with that he has scored against

the dutch twice,
germany and spain in the world cup,
turkey in the play offs
russia,denmark,czech republic.
So you would hardly call them whipping boys.

I actually posted about this on Foot.ie:

... constructive critisism is OK but its saying things like "The majority of his goals may have come against the weaker teams in world football" is silly. Why did he have to say that. Keane has scored 11 of his goals against top 15 teams [Yugoslavia, Turkey, Czech Republic (2), Holland (2), Russia, Denmark, Germany, Spain, Croatia]. Teams that weren't the worst that he scored against would be Iran, Albania (beat Greece recently) and Finland (doing well in the "group of death"). Plus, a goal in the world cup is never bad. Its not as if we play the stronger nations so much more than the weaker ones. If anything Robbie wasn't scoring enough against the weak nations before this campaign. The reason Fanning put that line in there is because he is biased (I'm not making that statement based on this article alone BTW).

If he was 28 or 29 the rest of the article would probably be true but you cannot say things like "As he reaches his peak, it remains to be seen if Robbie Keane can continue to strike fear based on more than just reputation" or "This may be as good as it gets for Robbie Keane" about a 24 year old.

The majority of the Irish don't rate Keane anywhere near as high as they used to but that has just started this season. Wait until the end of the season to see if he improves, I'll eat my hat if he doesn't.

GuanYin

Sposs wrote:

i wouldn't agree with that he has scored against

the dutch twice,
germany and spain in the world cup,
turkey in the play offs
russia,denmark,czech republic.
So you would hardly call them whipping boys.

What exactly are you disputing here?

The Majority of his goals

Is it this? Because if it is the 8 goals you mention don't disprove it.

His goals against Denmark, Russia and the czech republic were friendlies and his goal against spain was a penalty.

Even still count those 8 against the 12 against the might of the faroes, malta, canada, georgia, albania, the saudis and the Faroe Island.

From my reckoning he's scored 6 goals against equal or better opposition in competitive games and 1 was a penalty

How many goals has he scored in qualifying against the top 2 teams after Ireland? He got 1 goal in 4 games against Holland and Portugal in 2002 qualifying granted, but where were his goals against The Swiss or Russians in the last campaign? Will he score goals against France or the Swiss in this campaign or even Israel?

For the record his total scoring:

C=Competative
F=Friendly
FR=FIFA Rank
G=goals


Albania C, G=1, FR=87
Canada F, G=1, FR=95
Croatia F, G=1, FR=23
Cyprus C, G=1(1pen), FR=105
Czech Republic F, G=2, FR=5
Denmark F, G=1, FR=13
Faroe Islands C, G=2(1pen), FR=130
Finland F, G=1, FR=43
Georgia C, G=1, FR=107
Germany C, G=1, FR=16
Holland C, G=2, FR=6
Holland F, G=1, FR=6
Iran C, G=1, FR=20
Malta C, G=3, FR=132
Russia F, G=1, FR=33
Saudi Arabia C, G=1, FR=30
Spain C, G=1(1pen), FR=4
Turkey C, G=1, FR=12
Yugoslavia C, G=1, FR=40 (Slovenia, highest ranked of former Yugoslav states after Croatia)

BaZmO*

I don't think his goal against Russia was in a friendly?!

GuanYin

BaZmO* wrote:

I don't think his goal against Russia was in a friendly?!

It was, we beat them 3-0 in a friendly before the euro qualifiers and Keane scored. Out next two games against them were qualifiers and we lost 4-2 away and drew 0-0 and he didn't score in either.

The Muppet

Friendly or not he is Irelands top goal scorer of all time and to even suggest dropping him is a stupid idea. Discounting his goals against supposed "Whipping Boys" is also a stupid notion, There are very few Whipping boys in European football. I'm not Robbies biggest fan as i think Iago summed him up perfectly in an earlier post but he is by far the best striker Ireland has available at the moment.

GuanYin

The Muppet wrote:

Friendly or not he is Irelands top goal scorer of all time and to even suggest dropping him is a stupid idea. Discounting his goals against supposed "Whipping Boys" is also a stupid notion, There are very few Whipping boys in European football. I'm not Robbies biggest fan as i think Iago summed him up perfectly in an earlier post but he is by far the best striker Ireland has available at the moment.

I never disputed for a second that he is our current best striker.

However, if the opportunity to blood and nurture alternatives pay off and McGeady or Elliot cut it at the highest level, would you drop him for a player that forms an effective strike partnership with Morrisson or Duff?

I'd take the strike partnership without Keane rather than keep him in and see if he is in the mood that given day.

The "there are no whipping boys" is a cliché, Ireland are expected to and have the quality to beat the likes of Cyprus and The Faroe Islands and any striker worth his salt would fancy his chances against them. Gilsey would gut you for suggesting otherwise

Oh and I think the 3 results against Russia in a year and a half highlights nicely how much merit should be put on friendlies. 3-0 walk in the friendly followed by a sound defeat 4 months later and a draw at home a year later...

The Muppet

syke wrote:

I never disputed for a second that he is our current best striker.

However, if the opportunity to blood and nurture alternatives pay off and McGeady or Elliot cut it at the highest level, would you drop him for a player that forms an effective strike partnership with Morrisson or Duff?

I don;t see the sense in dropping a proven international in favor of the potential of unproven talent. I assume the manager fields his strongest available team so untill we have two Irish strikers begin to prove themselves better than Robbie the position is his. I can imagine the clamour for Kerrs head if he were to drop his best striker and we failed to get out of the group.
Th

syke wrote:

The "there are no whipping boys" is a cliché, Ireland are expected to and have the quality to beat the likes of Cyprus and The Faroe Islands and any striker worth his salt would fancy his chances against them. Gilsey would gut you for suggesting otherwise .

That is not what I said . A few years ago Greece would have been considered as the whipping boys of International football and look what they achieved as I said there are "VERY FEW" whipping boys in european football .

GuanYin

The Muppet wrote:

I don;t see the sense in dropping a proven international in favor of the potential of unproven talent. I assume the manager fields his strongest available team so untill we have two Irish strikers begin to prove themselves better than Robbie the position is his. I can imagine the clamour for Kerrs head if he were to drop his best striker and we failed to get out of the group.
.

Very true, but what I'm suggesting is that if one of the current potentials happened to be the real deal, would we be better off playing them with someone who would enhance their performance, or continuing with Robbie, who doesn't really help fellow strikers and who hasn't a good record against top opposition.

dirkey_wynne

BaZmO* wrote:

So then, in your humble opinion what defines a great striker if it's not his goal scoring record???

Well firstly my post you quote says nothing about great striker or otherwise. It just states that I don't think he's our greatest ever forward. Personally, and it's just my opionion, I feel Stapleton and Aldridge were better. I don't think they got the goals Robbie gets, simply as they didn't have the service. The Irish sides were a different proposition back then.

One way I like to look at it - as the article says Robbie has yet to be certain of his club place - bar at Wolves. But you had Stapleton playing regularly for Arsenal and Utd and Aldo with Pool. I feel this shows how highly valued they were - they were integral members of top sides. Robbie is an in and out member of mid table at best sides.

So that's my reasoning. But it's just my opinion!

dirkey_wynne

The Muppet wrote:

Friendly or not he is Irelands top goal scorer of all time and to even suggest dropping him is a stupid idea. Discounting his goals against supposed "Whipping Boys" is also a stupid notion, There are very few Whipping boys in European football. I'm not Robbies biggest fan as i think Iago summed him up perfectly in an earlier post but he is by far the best striker Ireland has available at the moment.

I agree with this also. I don't rate him particularly highly, as I've said, but you can't even contemplate dropping him. We just don't have anyone near him in terms of quality.

AthAnRi

I agree with your agrument about Friendlies and Competitive matches, but surely if you discount a good team that he scored in against in a friendly, then you have to count the lesser nations he has scored against in competitive matches.

I think Robbie has a lot to learn but his all round game is pretty sound. He really needs to improve on his finishing and if he did that he would score 15-20 goals a season. At the moment he is a player that uses his instincts well. If he gets a half chance and he has very little time to think about scoring then he will bury it 99 out of a 100 times, however if he is bearing down on goal in a one on one situation, and has a lot of time to think about where he puts it he missus a high percentage of chances. This is all about confidence and decision making. All that needs is coaching. Nothing else.

One other thing syke, If you discount a penalty in the last minute of a world cup knock out match then you know very little about quality strikers. The way he stuck that penalty was pure class. That is probably one of the best goals he or anyone has scored for Ireland, Giving the circumstances and the pressure he was under to score.
Even the greats like Marco Van Basten and Dennis Bergkamp couldn't do that in a similar situation. Al be it against a better keeper and all.

I do agree that he can certainly imrove on his goalscoring ability, But I think that he is only one of two players that can conjure a goal from nothing.(For Ireland that is)