Doctor`s Fees

jonny68

I havent been to see a Doctor in a couple of years but this morning i had to go,i was there less that 5 minutes,when i went to the reception she said "that`ll be €40 please" i was stunned,i had absolutely no idea it was so expensive to see a Doctor (for 5 minutes) the last time i went a couple of years back i was in receipt of a medical card and it was free,the time before that i cant remember off hand how much it was but it was cheap enough,ive been informed by some people in work that it can actually be dearer with some Doctors,i find it absolutely scandalous that they can actually charge that amount,in the UK to go see your Doctor/Dentist,etc is all free,do people like myself who are not particulary on good money still have to pay through the nose like this or are there any sort of discounts you can get?I might need to go back in a few weeks but the thoughts of shelling out another €40 for 5 minutes and an unfriendly Doctor doesnt appeal.

EKRIUQ

Your €40 is about right for a visit the doctor, just shows how valuable a medical card is. I know people who have a medical card and go to the doctor at least once a week and sometimes twice!!, even for a bruised thum there off to the doctors. Makes me mad when I have to fork out €40 for any visit plus money for medication. :mad:

jonny68

Its an absolute disgrace having to fork out that amount of money for 5 minutes,Doctor`s in this country must be extremly wealthy people if they are charging that amount of money........ :mad:

EKRIUQ

They are!!!

But thats nothing compared to America were a 5 minute consulation can cost up to $300.

Furp

That actually sounds like slightly below average price, our family doctor is €45 and the price seems to go up every few months, my wife and two babies have had to go to the doctor a couple of times in the past few weeks.

One week we spent €180 between doctor and pharmacy, atlhough there is the DPS scheme which is for prescription drugs so you do not ahve to pay more than €80 in one month for drugs.

Also if you go back to the doctor for the same ailment i.e. they have not cured you you should get a lower rate maybe €30 or less.

jonny68

Thats desperate Furp..does anyone know..if your not a high earner is there any way you can qualify for some type of discount when going to the Doctor?As i said i might need to go again once or twice before Xmas and especially this time of year some people are stretched to the limit for money so ill be especially aggrieved if i have to shell out more money for a couple of mins time for some Doctor who was unfriendly and basically seemed like he was in a desperate hurry.... :mad:

Meh

If you have insurance, check your policy's excess on GP visits. If you spend more than a few hundred quid in a year, you might be able to get some money back.

Also keep your receipts, you can claim tax back on medical expenses:
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/health/taxation_and_medical_expenses.html

Nuttzz

Doctors spend 7 years in Med school for no pay, they then have to go through the ringer of being a lowly paid junior doctor. They have a hefty insurance bill to pay annually, there motor insurance policies are higher, they have to pay their employees, pay for the costs of running their practice. These things are all expensive in Ireland, I wouldnt see doctors as a profiteering bunch, publicans are a lot worse! If you had of spent 5 minutes or 5 hours with him it would have cost the same. If you dont like your doctor go else where (I know a great one in Beaumont on Dublins Northside €38). the doctors I have dealt with are worth every penny

Hal1

Its a bloody rip tho, I paid €100 to a doc for 10mins work and that was just an examination. I went private tho so I kinda expected to pay a little bit more, thing is I will have to go for a little op in a few weeks I dread to think what thats going cost and I aint on VHI.

jonny68

I`ll agree with you about Doctors not being as you put it "a profiteering bunch" like Publicans,however that does not excuse high fees,many many people went to college/Uni for years without pay,and started out on low pay,have massive bills,etc,etc so Doctors should not be classified as the only profession who have struggled in the past,why cant we have a health system like in the UK,where its completly FREE,we are getting ripped off in this country for absolutely everything,and yes for the record i think i will be changing my Doctor,the least you expect when you go visit your local Doctor is not for him to be seen to be rushing,asides from what i mainly went to him for i also said to him that for some time now i have a splint in my arm which has been there several months,i asked him what did he suggest was the best thing to do,he said "oh dont worry about that it will go away itself" i was taken aback with his comments,if its been there several months (its not sore BTW) what makes him think it will just "go away" very unprofessional in my book,it was almost as if he couldnt wait to get rid of me and get the next patient in,ill tell you this ill give it until after Xmas and if this splint is still in my arm ill be back there and ill remind him what he said and ill demand he does something about it without me having to pay........

Nuttzz wrote:

Doctors spend 7 years in Med school for no pay, they then have to go through the ringer of being a lowly paid junior doctor. They have a hefty insurance bill to pay annually, there motor insurance policies are higher, they have to pay their employees, pay for the costs of running their practice. These things are all expensive in Ireland, I wouldnt see doctors as a profiteering bunch, publicans are a lot worse! If you had of spent 5 minutes or 5 hours with him it would have cost the same. If you dont like your doctor go else where (I know a great one in Beaumont on Dublins Northside €38). the doctors I have dealt with are worth every penny

:mad:

uberwolf

how much for a plumber to pop over? a washing machine repair man charged my mum €80 for ten mins a month ago. to be fair given how qaulified they are it's cheap compared to some services.

Nuttzz

I dont think €40 is unreasonable for a professional service, get a new doctor but they all charge around the same

David19

"many many people went to college/Uni for years without pay"

The vast majority of people don't go to university for 6 years, follwed by a year of training and then years of work as a junior doctor where shifts can be 36 hours and a typical week is 100+ hours. After this they are a GP. It can be another four years of working and training to become a specialist. This is not to mention how well they have to do in school to even have a chance of becoming a doctor. Add in the costs that Nuttzz mentioned and I think they fully deserve what they're paid. Maybe Im biased though, my dad is a doctor lol.

samo

you can join HSA (health cash back) I used to get it free as beniefit in my job and you can claim back €25 of each doctors fee which lessens the burden a little.

The thing I object to is paying for kids;

I have 2 kids and theres times its been hard to come up with €40 (about the average) to bring child to the doctors and you shouldnt have to make the decision when it comes to health can I afford to go especially when it comes to your kids.

I dont mind so much for myself but really bothers me like i say about having to pay that for doctors/hospitals etc for children.

Capt'n Midnight

If I get melangitis I'd probably be dead by the time I waited to see if it "went away" before going to a doctor.

As for public health care, a while back I got caught on the corner of an open hatchback boot at head height, it probably could have done with two stiches but it was saturday evening so I reckoned by the time I got to emergency and queued it would be past the three hours where you can stitch things. Now have a small scar which I'll be reminding certain politicians of if the call round at the nest election..

Tazz T

samo wrote:

The thing I object to is paying for kids;

I have 2 kids and theres times its been hard to come up with €40 (about the average) to bring child to the doctors and you shouldnt have to make the decision when it comes to health can I afford to go especially when it comes to your kids.

I dont mind so much for myself but really bothers me like i say about having to pay that for doctors/hospitals etc for children.

I completely agree. It is utterly unfair for any government to allow doctors to charge for children's healthcare. It should be part of state care. I just completed my tax return tonight and it sickens me that it goes on paying the bills of those rich politicians rather than looking after the health of the population - especially those below and above working age. There's plenty of money in the government's coffers right now and I'll guarantee they'll waste it on something pointless. Yet they'll have their VHI or whatever to look after them while lower paid workers have neither healthcard or insurance. It's sickening.

BTW I have health cover and don't have any children - yet. I just think it's grossly unfair. We should have an equivalent of the UK's NHI. And just in case anyone's thinking about it, don't start going on about how we can't afford it in poor old Ireland. We could, if half the millionaires that aren't paying tax and can afford healthcare did their bit.

sixtysix

presumably the current group of gps went to college and paid their own college fees, now that their undergrad fees are much reduced do you think we should see a corresponding reduction in their fees-unlikely i presume. how did we ever get to a situation where some gps are earning 250000pa just from the medical card system.
they are a monopolist cartel.

Nuttzz

samo wrote:

The thing I object to is paying for kids;

I have 2 kids and theres times its been hard to come up with €40 (about the average) to bring child to the doctors and you shouldnt have to make the decision when it comes to health can I afford to go especially when it comes to your kids.

I dont mind so much for myself but really bothers me like i say about having to pay that for doctors/hospitals etc for children.

I dont get that point, I dont have kids which is my choice but I dont see why the tax payer (like me) should pay for your kids healthcare. Two kids were your choice not the governments

Imposter

Tazz T wrote:

I completely agree. It is utterly unfair for any government to allow doctors to charge for children's healthcare. It should be part of state care. I just completed my tax return tonight and it sickens me that it goes on paying the bills of those rich politicians rather than looking after the health of the population...

I'm pretty sure I read this week that the Dept of Health is getting an extra 2bn this year in the budget to bring their budget up to 11bn. So 5 million people and 11bn€. How much does your healthcare (exclude doctors unless you have a medical card) cost? So you see your taxes should be paying for it but it's just that they are wasting so much money.

Tazz T

Nuttzz wrote:

I dont get that point, I dont have kids which is my choice but I dont see why the tax payer (like me) should pay for your kids healthcare. Two kids were your choice not the governments

You don't think it's fair that people on low incomes shouldn't have financial help for healthcare for the future working population? How do you know that the above poster or their partner is not also a tax payer?

So you're never planning on having kids, Nuttz??

We are supposed to be a society. As far as I reckon that means looking after each other when we need it.

Imposter

Tazz T wrote:

You don't think it's fair that people on low incomes shouldn't have financial help for healthcare for the future working population?

What about the current working population? Is their health not as important?

/We need a "will someone think of the children" gathering card!

Tazz T

The working population is 'working'. Therefore they have the financial resources to pay for healthcare.

Nuttzz

If people cant afford to have kids, then dont have them. One mistake is allowed but if someone decides to go off and have a football team I dont see why the state should foot the bill

samo

Nuttzz wrote:

If people cant afford to have kids, then dont have them. One mistake is allowed but if someone decides to go off and have a football team I dont see why the state should foot the bill

Your taxes also support the elderly, the incapacitated, the unemployed need I go on. Do you resent having to support them as well, I would hope you wouldnt find yourself in a position to need assistance ever!

Also Kids are future tax payers if you want to look at it that way and will be supporting YOU when you get to whatever age the pension is and bearing in mind the government hasnt scrapped it!!!!!

I do think its a basic right that children should have access to health care without restriction. They should be entitled to a medical card, I'm not talking about just my kids but all kids. times are tough for everyone and there are a lot of families who dont reply on support financially from any government source but find it tough if a kid gets sick paying the fee's and its a burden they could be helped with.

Its not an option to say people shouldnt have kids if they cant afford them, if that was the case the population would have ceased to increase as of the last 5 years in this county!

and yes both of us work and both of us pay taxes and its till tough paying out doctors fees as it is for the single people that answered this thread. I wouldnt go to the doctors for me unless I was dying but I think its a very valid point that a childs health is a different story and there shouldnt be any question of not bringing them to the doctors because you cant afford it.

Nuttzz

Dont worry I have my own pension well sorted.

Your comming for a parents point of view and I respect that, however I dont have kids nor do I plan to either so I dont see why I should have to pay for other peoples kids, I do resent having to support long term unemployed now that you ask, I dont see any excuse for any Irish person not to be working in the current economic climate when you see pubs and petrol stations full of non national workers, the idea that someone will not work "coz I'll lose me benefits" sickens me to be honest.

samo

fair enough, I didnt intend on having kids fairly young so it does change change your perspective on it agreed. It's just I've been in the situation where my son has been sick and literally night in question did not have the money to pay local GP and wouldnt accept chq.

Was told then to bring him to the A+E where I had to sit for 5 hours because 'you can them pay later' now to me thats wrong, I was going up the walls thinking thinking the worst and I cannot justify that doctors position. It was upsetting for him and for me to be in that postion and I dont think its fair that I as a tax payer should have to suffer such a poor public health service. Now thats a very personal case alright but I dont think its unique to just me from what I know.

And on the long term unemployed, I do agree in with you in the cases where its being blatantly exploited but again the fault there can be levied at the government for having it that way. Its human nature that people will exploit the system if it is allowed and unfortunatly it is the likes of you and me that pick up the tab.

MrPudding

Nuttzz wrote:

Dont worry I have my own pension well sorted.

You are a cop? In that case I think you will find that we, as tax payers or more correctly todays children that will be tax payers when you retire, have your pension sorted.

MrP

Tazz T

Good point.

So Nuttzz, why should I pay taxes for your wages. It was your choice to become a cop.

uberwolf

Tazz T wrote:

Good point.

So Nuttzz, why should I pay taxes for your wages. It was your choice to become a cop.

and it was your choice to live in a society where we have cops :rolleyes: what a roundabout argument. That is going nowhere.

MrPudding

uberwolf wrote:

and it was your choice to live in a society where we have cops :rolleyes: what a roundabout argument. That is going nowhere.

I should point out that I have no problem with my taxes going to the police in the form of wages or indeed pensions.



I made my previous comment in response to his comment when he said he had his pension sorted. His comment seemed to me to be in response to someone pointing out that our taxes were spent on many things including pensions and healthcare for the less fortunate.



MrP

Tazz T

uberwolf wrote:

and it was your choice to live in a society where we have cops :rolleyes: what a roundabout argument. That is going nowhere.

/cough/ that was sarcasm

uberwolf

you should know to use the sarcasm tags then!!!

RuggieBear

I don't think Doctors get paid enough....altho i admit that 40e is a large sum.

My father is a GP ( i know i'm biased;) )and spent the bones of 8years getting qualified with ****all income and when he first started he worked 8am to 8pm mon to fri and sat morning as well... He was on call every night and often got about 2hours sleep. We didn't take a holiday for 5 years and then it was only to Rosses Point.

Over the years he has helped thousands, from people with colds, the depressed, AIDS sufferers, drug addicts, people who want to change their gender, and saved hundreds of lifes, by diagnosing heart attacks and cancer. He hasn't had anyone die in his surgery yet but he has been on housecalls where he had people die in his arms....I've been with him when he has stopped by traffic accidents and helped the seriously injured and gone with them to the hospital, leaving me to get a ride home with the GARDA.


He has been puked on countless times, had junkies threatening him and the Surgery has been robbed loads of times...

It's a horrible job and one of those that people don't really appreciate till the Doctor saves your life...then your 40e really is money well spent

Nuttzz

I'm not a cop, nor do I live with my parents, it was just a line I heard in a show..... I pay for my own pension.

Samo: I get your point, thats fair enough, i dont have kids so dont fully grasp the whole thing

samo

It does put a different perspective on it when your responsible for somebody elses health and not your own and fair play to you having pension etc sorted because like i said in this country you really do have to look after yourself and theres an awful lot of people going to get a big shock come retirement day!

Also ruggie bear, not to take away from the responsibliity a doctors has and I agree they put the work in to get themselves to that level of profession which is an inavluable one.

I wouldnt expect the government to subsidise a plumber for me if the boiler breaks down so I can see the other side of the coin!

vector

jonny68 wrote:

...I might need to go back in a few weeks but the thoughts of shelling out another €40 for 5 minutes and an unfriendly Doctor doesnt appeal.

Well, on the second visit you could say, "Sure, I'll give you 40 for todays visit, but only if you refund me the 40 from my first visit because it didn't work"

Has anyone ever tried that?

Captain Trips

vector wrote:

Well, on the second visit you could say, "Sure, I'll give you 40 for todays visit, but only if you refund me the 40 from my first visit because it didn't work"

Has anyone ever tried that?

I was reading a book recently and in it was some history from around 1350 in the UK when a surgeon was introducing a new surgery for an anal fistula. He would charge £40 for the procedure and a £40 annuity for as long as the patient survived!

shoegirl

Nuttzz wrote:

Doctors spend 7 years in Med school for no pay, they then have to go through the ringer of being a lowly paid junior doctor.

Lowly paid? My ar**! An intern starts on €26,052. Thats massive money compared to starting money when you consider the person is probably about 25 or so.
Junior Doctors (or non consultants) get about 140k per year.
I don't think this includes overtime pay.

GPs in Ireland actually get about 25-30% more than their colleagues in the British NHS, even though average salaries in the UK are about 30% higher than in Ireland. Doctors are considerably better off Ireland, largely because we do not have free healthcare.

There is currently an ad on the IMO website for instant approval for GPs of loans of €15,000 a year. Think carefully about this. Thats a very welathy person that gets offered loans like that.

There is a real anomaly here in the fact that a person earning 120k a year pays the same as a young couple on maybe only 2 small incomes with children. The idea of different kinds of medical cards to suit different needs isn't all that bad. From friends who work with doctors I hear that apparently some medical card holders come in as much as twice a week really just for the chat. Thats not only a lot of doctors time wasted, its wasting taxpayers money. I suffer from asthma so I visit a doctor at least 2 to 4 times a year and then medication is 78 per month (it would be 95 without the DPS scheme). If just moved to a different job where I get a 5k pay rise but still pay the same. And I remember at one point in my life when that was a lot of money and it was difficult to afford.

Unemployed people certainly deserve assistance but there seems to be a free for all in this country whereby people who don't want to work or stay on the dole/welfare while working on the black economy are able to continue for years like that. I know several "unemployed" people who have incomes of over 400 a week from working and being paid under the counter. Now I don't begrudge Doctors making reasonable money but they do seem to be an exceptionally welathy bunch, compared to many people these days.

eth0_

shoegirl wrote:

Lowly paid? My ar**! An intern starts on €26,052. Thats massive money compared to starting money when you consider the person is probably about 25 or so.

For a start, if you're 25 and only earning 26 grand you're not exactly doing well for yourself.

I know two junior doctors and they're working 100 hour + weeks. Do you think 26k is fair pay for working over ONE HUNDRED HOURS a week? And virtually LIVING in a hospital? It's slave labour.

Also, consider the enormous debt med students have. After first year you really cannot afford to work part time because you have such a heavy workload, so you rely on student loans to survive.

If you go to uni in the UK you're working in a hospital from first year with no pay. So you'll be working for the NHS for free for five or six years.

PRHO's in the UK start on I think £23-25k. So they're on a bit more than junior doctors here. Which is pretty good going considering UK residents don't pay a penny for healthcare (apart from their taxes of course).

sixtysix

do a google on junior doctors earnings
in 2002 their average overtime earnings is quoted at €45,000
in 2003 their average earnings is put at €140,000
this for junior non consultant doctors

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2002/08/07/story62967.asp

http://www.sbpost.ie/web/Home/Document%20View%20Business/did-79533948-pageUrl--2FBusiness-2FNews-Features-2FAdvice-Specials.asp

RuggieBear

while i'm not sure of those figures...jnr drs are getting better paid than they were due to the fact they now get paid for the overtime they do. When my pop was doing overtime he would get one third pay for all hours over the basic working week :eek: Think this only change over the last couple of years

Tazz T

eth0_ wrote:

For a start, if you're 25 and only earning 26 grand you're not exactly doing well for yourself.

I know two junior doctors and they're working 100 hour + weeks. Do you think 26k is fair pay for working over ONE HUNDRED HOURS a week? And virtually LIVING in a hospital? It's slave labour.

Also, consider the enormous debt med students have. After first year you really cannot afford to work part time because you have such a heavy workload, so you rely on student loans to survive..

In all fairness Etho, the average wage in Ireland is 24k, whatever age you are, so earning 26k when you're 25 isn't too bad. This whole thread is about ppl who don't make that much and have to pay for their medical expenses. You make a fair point that Junior Doctors work excessive hours (and I believe that's wrong) but that's because, in the future, they will benefit from massive wages. That's also why they're prepared to run up big debts while they're studying. The point is it's not fair on low income families to run up debts visiting the doctor that they'll never have the chance to pay off and that's what this thread is about.

eth0_

I know and I agree that it costs a bomb to get medical care in this country, and medical insurance is worthless unless you're at deaths door. Having lived in the UK for the majority of my life I can appreciate the benefits of the NHS.

I just took exception at the attacks on Doctors wages.

MrPudding

Is junior doctor working hours not a moot point? Did the new European Working Hours directive not sort this out?

For me no child should be denied the right to see a doctor. Towards the end of the month things can get tight, I would hate to think that a child isn’t taken to the doctor because the parents can’t afford it. Being €1 over the threshold for a medical card does not mean you can pay €40 to take your child to the doctor.

I appreciate that some people think that as they do not have children they should not have to pay for other peoples children to receive medical and education. Thankfully these people are in a minority. As members of a society we have a responsibility to look after those less fortunate than ourselves, even if they are only slight less well off than we are ourselves.

No one like to pay good money to people who are abusing the system. Personally I would rather the abusers got away with the abuse than the needy get denied in error. Obviously I would like to see people that do not deserve the money not getting it, my worry would be that people that do need it would also be denied.

MrP

Imposter

MrPudding wrote:

For me no child should be denied the right to see a doctor. Towards the end of the month things can get tight, I would hate to think that a child isn’t taken to the doctor because the parents can’t afford it. Being €1 over the threshold for a medical card does not mean you can pay €40 to take your child to the doctor.

I appreciate that some people think that as they do not have children they should not have to pay for other peoples children to receive medical and education. Thankfully these people are in a minority. As members of a society we have a responsibility to look after those less fortunate than ourselves, even if they are only slight less well off than we are ourselves.

Why is it more important that a child gets to see a doctor rather than an adult?

There's a couple of things in play here. Firstly the medical card system is very unfair and is being abused. There are people who are just over the threshold and they realistically should get some assistance with medical costs. This works for everyone, not just children.

Then there's the issue of parents having children and not being realistically being able to afford them (That might sound incompassionate or whatever but this is a discussion about money and not about emotions). If these people didn't have the kids then they wouldn't have to worry about being able to afford to bring their kids to the doctor.

MrPudding

Imposter wrote:

Why is it more important that a child gets to see a doctor rather than an adult?

It’s not really more important, it is simply that children normally do not have their own income and need to rely on someone else for pay their way.

Imposter wrote:

There's a couple of things in play here. Firstly the medical card system is very unfair and is being abused. There are people who are just over the threshold and they realistically should get some assistance with medical costs. This works for everyone, not just children.

I agree, as I said in my post. I know I only mentioned children but the issue is accross the board.

Imposter wrote:

Then there's the issue of parents having children and not being realistically being able to afford them (That might sound incompassionate or whatever but this is a discussion about money and not about emotions). If these people didn't have the kids then they wouldn't have to worry about being able to afford to bring their kids to the doctor.

I also agree with you here, to a certain extent, but there are a few things you need to remember. Firstly accidents do happen. A couple may end up with a child even if they are taking precautions. It happened to me. Perhaps we should allow abortion on economic grounds? After all I am sure some couples realise they cannot afford their little accident and would opt for an abortion if it was available. Secondly, and most important for me, the child did not ask to be born. It should not be denied medical treatment because it parents should not have had it in the first place.

MrP

samo

Imposter wrote:

Why is it more important that a child gets to see a doctor rather than an adult?

Then there's the issue of parents having children and not being realistically being able to afford them (That might sound incompassionate or whatever but this is a discussion about money and not about emotions). If these people didn't have the kids then they wouldn't have to worry about being able to afford to bring their kids to the doctor.

so maybe you think the government should do a means check or check bank balances before conception takes place?? :rolleyes:

Imposter

samo wrote:

so maybe you think the government should do a means check or check bank balances before conception takes place?? :rolleyes:

That's not a bad idea. :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

MrPudding wrote:

I also agree with you here, to a certain extent, but there are a few things you need to remember. Firstly accidents do happen. A couple may end up with a child even if they are taking precautions. It happened to me. Perhaps we should allow abortion on economic grounds? After all I am sure some couples realise they cannot afford their little accident and would opt for an abortion if it was available. Secondly, and most important for me, the child did not ask to be born. It should not be denied medical treatment because it parents should not have had it in the first place.

Without getting into an abortion debate i'll say yes. I presume a lot of people already do have abortions for this reason.

I get what you are saying about the child's position and it's a tricky one. I personally would prefer if healthcare (doctors, hospital, prescriptions and dentists) was free or very cheap (say 5€ a visit) for basic and/or necessary services for everyone. That might mean more tax is required to fund such services (but not before they get to the bottom of where all the money is going at the moment and do something about that), but it would have the effect of eliminating the medical card as exists at present and may even cause some people who refuse to work because of the medical card, to go back into the workforce.

That way everyone is guaranteed basic healthcare for a minimum cost that everyone, no matter how poor, should be able to afford.

samo

maybe an intelligence test could be an idea too....???

Imposter

samo wrote:

maybe an intelligence test could be an idea too....???

Couldn't hurt I suppose.

samo

Out of curiosity how much do you think somebody should earn before they can conceive a child so they can prove their effectiveness at being able to support them without any government assistance?

And of course what happens if one of the parents dies or is made redundant or something else financially unsettling happens in their life??

Well we could just let the child suffer and not be treated becuase its of the course the parents fault they were not able to sustain the child financially....

Dont think I'd like life in your world much!!!!


Ok well I posted the above before I saw you had edited your post with something I'd agree with!!

Yeah,i agree there should be a minimum level of healthcare for veryone in this country no regardless of income. Its the way it is in England and its not often I find myself thinking things are better over there but I cannot see it happening here and if it was a comprimise between healthcare for veryone as you suggest and i agree with but cant see happening or healtcare for children - I would still go for the latter than nothing at all