Im tired of the Dublin region seeming to be getting the lions share(a Cork mans rant)

invincibleirish

i mean i understand dublin is the main urban area for the country but it is unfair that it seems to get hugely preferential treatment,i say this as a bitter corkman whereby the city(and county) seem to be missing out on things it needs.
Case in point the transport system for the city,buses are infrequent at best,downright awful at worst,the no5 being particularly dodgy as well as the 232 to ballincollig and the 2 to mahon. what grates also is that in the citys 2 most recent development plans there are outlines for a light rail system ,but i doubt that this plan is going to see the light of day anytime soon.its a shame as cork is gridlocked as it is and as such it would take a lot of cars off the road. just to add with regards busses,and this is probably more because of archaic council borders,but its illogical that places like ballincollig,carrigaline and rochestown bus services have commuter and not city services when they are,to all intensive purposes parts of the city.
with regards commuter rail,in fairness,the midleton line will be re-opened in a few years time,but the original line goes all the way out to youghal but not in the proposed reopening,and although the mallow&cobh lines got new rolling stock recently they are still poor in terms of a)there arent enough trains at rush hour on the cobh line at least,its always packed and b) the train service off peak is piss poor.
with regards roads,the north ring has still not been built,i saw in the paper recently that the planning has started for the project with a no. of routes been identified all encompasssing a tunnel thru the lee valley,but construction is not going to start on this for another few years and probably wont be completed for the best part of a decade,the northside badly needs this as a boon in the same way that the south ring has been good for the south of the city in terms of the new industries and what ever else.
my other gripe with regards roads in cork though is that the proposed ringaskiddy dual-carriageway,which is in the current NDP,is still, as far i can tell,not even at planning stage yet,this road is of crucial importance not just to the cork region but to the state,the ringaskiddy area has all the huge pharmaceuticals and heavy industry(90% of heavy industry in the state is located in the cork harbour area) so it is makes economically vital that the road is built so the industries can link up better with the airport & port.
i think the development of the n8/m8 has already taken up a lot of time on this board so i dont really need to go over the same arguments again,and maybe im cluthching at straws but the mallow road,which is still a new road,is such a piss poor road, why on earth was it not built as continous dual carriageway?.
sorry to go on,and focus on cork and its needs,im sure other cities probably have similar complaints but my point is,sure the dublin region needs stuff,but we need stuff too.

MDR

I say you should have all that stuff, but you should toll the Jack Lynch tunnel to pay for it ...

invincibleirish

the proposed north ring will be tolled apparently.and the jack lynch tunnel will probably be also tolled in time as proposals suggest.question,where does the toll money go to?to the councils or back to the NRA?if its the NRA,then it'll probably mean it'll just pay for stuff elsewhere outside of the cork region.

Metrobest

invincibleirish wrote:

i mean i understand dublin is the main urban area for the country but it is unfair that it seems to get hugely preferential treatment,i say this as a bitter corkman whereby the city(and county) seem to be missing out on things it needs.
case in point the transport system for the city,buses are infrequent at best,downright awful at worst,the no5 being particularly dodgy as well as the 232 to ballincollig and the 2 to mahon,what grates also is that in the citys 2 most recent development plans there are outlines for a light rail system ,but i doubt that this plan is going to see the light of day anytime soon.its a shame as cork is gridlocked as it is and as such it would take a lot of cars off the road.just to add with regards busses,and this is probably more because of archaic borders,but its illogical that places like ballincollig,carrigaline and rochestown bus services are commuter and not city services when they are,to all intensive purposes parts of the city
with regards commuter rail,in fairness,the midleton line will be re-opened in a few years time,but the original line goes all the way out to youghal but not in the proposed reopening,and although the mallow&cobh lines got new rolling stock recently they are still poor in terms of,a)there arent enough trains at rush hour on the cobh line at least,its always packed,and b) the trains at night are piss poor.
with regards roads,the north ring has still not been built,i saw in the paper recently that the planning has started for the project with a no. of routes been identified all encompasssing a tunnel thru the lee valley,but construction is not going to start on this for another few years and probably wont be completed for the best part of a decade,the northside badly needs this as a boon in the same way that the south ring has been good for the south of the city in terms of the new industries and what ever else.
my other gripe with regards roads in cork though is that the proposed ringaskiddy dual-carriageway,which is in the current NDP,is still, as far i can tell,not even at planning stage yet,this road is of crucial importance not just to the cork region but to the state,the ringaskiddy area has all the huge pharmaceuticals and heavy industry(90% of heavy industry in the state is located in the cork harbour area) so it is makes economically vital that the road is built so the industries can link up better with the airport & port.
i think the development of the n8/m8 has already taken up a lot of time on this board so i dont really need to go over the same arguments again,and maybe im cluthching at straws but the mallow road,which is still a new road,is such a piss poor road why on earth was it not built as contnous dual carriageway?.
sorry to go on,and focus on cork and its needs,im sure other cities probably have similar complaints but my point is,sure the dublin region needs stuff,but we need stuff too.

Maybe you should learn the rules of punctuation before you begin your next rant. (It looks like gibberish with all those commas and the paucity of full stops.)

John R

Metrobest wrote:

Maybe you should learn the rules of punctuation before you begin your next rant. (It looks like gibberish with all those commas and the paucity of full stops.)

A full sentince inside brackets? Maybe YOU should learn some more rules before criticising others.

Metrobest

John R wrote:

A full sentince inside brackets? Maybe YOU should learn some more rules before criticising others.

Check your own spelling, please. And AFAIK a full sentence can be placed inside brackets once there is a full stop inside the brackets.

invincibleirish

yeah what was i thinking, i mean this is the internet where punctuation,grammar & spelling tend to be of the highest order :rolleyes:

Metrobest

invincibleirish wrote:

yeah what was i thinking, i mean this is the internet where punctuation,grammar & spelling tend to be of the highest order :rolleyes:

Without getting into a heated debate about the merits of your argument, let me just point out that your title is missing three apostrophes and three capital letters. Small errors are easily forgiven. But your text - littered with mistakes - ruins your argument; nobody will take you seriously.

When you're scrawling text messages to your mates, by all means revert to some hybrid form of english. But when you're on a public forum could you make some effort to write coherently? I'm sure I'm not alone in finding the text with which you began this thread utterly annoying.

maxheadroom

Metrobest wrote:

I'm sure I'm not alone in finding the text with which you began this thread utterly annoying.

Not wanting to make a habit of this (;)) - but I'm going to have to agree with Metrobest here. invincibleirish, I gave up reading through your post after "light rail system". Sorry, but it was too difficult to read. If you feel like editing it so it is comprehensible, you'll probably find that more people are willing to engage you in conversation / debate about it.

invincibleirish

point taken,gimme a while.

Metrobest

maxheadroom wrote:

Not wanting to make a habit of this (;)) - but I'm going to have to agree with Metrobest here. .

Haha.. this must go into the Guiness Book of Records as a first!

invincibleirish

not tonite me go drinky now,i will tomorrow,i suppose i should say i did pre empt this thread by calling it a rant as that is what it is,dreamed up in a moment i really did not intend to try and give it some clarity,i just typed and posted,but as i said tomorrow i'll edit it to something more comprehensible.

jank

Completely agree with every said (no, not about the punctuation!)

Yes Cork does need loads of long term investment, but all the money seems to be going to the pale, and what i mean is Dublin and surrounding commuter counties.

For example the M3,
OK people need good roads to get to work or go from A to B but building a motorway that really goes nowhere is taking the urine! It is essentially a commuter motorway that will make surronding landowners/property rich when the new road takes place and the "projected" times of going from meath to dublin is slashed.

Have they not learned that a continous urban sprawl is not good for the state or even Dublin?

What happened to the national spacial strategy?

I think that money would be better invested in linking the other cities of the state. i.e a kinda western motorway/dual carriageway linking waterford-cork-limerick-galway-sligo-derry.

A dual-carriageway like that would in my opinion open up so much of the country and surronding towns. OK its going to cost more than the M3 but still you can see my point about lack of vision here to the future

If the government got ther act together it could be built in 10-15 years (yea right! :rolleyes: ) Some if it is even built like e.g. the cork to waterford road has gotten much better and the limerick to ennis to galway is begin upgarded at the mo as far as i know.

As for cork itself well it sickens me that at least some of the townplanners down there have a vision not to become another dublin but there hands are tied by the lack of funds, year after year dublin gets billions poured into it for very little bang for their buck

The Kinsale road interchange...like that was supposed to be built 2 or 3 years ago but funds have been not forthcomming. its one of the busiest interchanges in the country, probably second only to the red cow and it gets shafted year on year!!
All ready to go!planning everyting but just needs the final nod and dosh from a dublin beaurocrat!

Local TD's also think this as someone spoke out about it(cant remember who but it might have beent eh city manager) last year when cork asked for a meassly million or so to upgarde one of its main roads in the city(capital of culture 2005??)
They were told to piss off while the luas took 700+ million to build

There is definately an inbalence here and remember this is supposed to be irelands second city!

Dont even get me started on the school of music

As regards tolling well you cant toll EVERY road that is to be built!
The tunnel was paid for by taxpayers money so why should the taxpayers pay for it again plus there is no room for a toll booth anywhere on the road and remember too that a few kilometers up the road there will be a tolled motorway(Fermoy), so that would make it 2 tolls in like 15-20 kilometers
Hardly fair!
[/Rant]

Capt'n Midnight

Very simply
Most journeys in Cork city take half an hour or less even during peak traffic, and those that take longer are usually because of road improvements which promise shorter journey times in the near future..

Up here it takes about half an hour to just to cross over Naas Road during rush hour, never mind the rest of your journey. And there is nothing in Cork that comes close to the Linear Car Park that is the M50 (cheapest parking in Dublin €1.50 an hour) and there are going to be YEARS of roadworks on lane extensions and bodged "bolt on" junctions.

Victor

invincibleirish wrote:

light rail system

Where?*

Will rip rest of thread to shreads later.

* EDIT: found a reference in chapter 4 which says it wouldn't work.

embraer170

Public transport in Cork is dire.

Most journeys in Cork city take half an hour or less even during peak traffic, and those that take longer are usually because of road improvements which promise shorter journey times in the near future..

On a bad evening it takes buses more than 40 minutes to get from the bus station to the front of UCC; the same distance can be walked in half the time.

I've got my own vision for a Cork LRT, will have to find the time to type it some day.

Andrew Duffy

Ok, Dublin has a metropolitan population of about 1.5 million and accounts for about half of the country's economy. If it didn't get the "lion's share" of infrastructur investment it would be unfair. In fact, I believe it's right for Dublin to subsidise development in the rest of the country, and that's what's happening with road developments on the main routes between Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway (and I mean between all those cities - the N20 and N18 are starting to look like real intercity roads now). There is also huge investment ongoing into the Dublin-Cork railway line, and there should be work starting on commuter services on the Cork end of this line, and on the disused Cork-Midleton line, within months.

If you lost the victim complex, we might take you more seriously. As it is, you just read like you're petulant and jealous.

Steve Conway

95% of the Cork city bus fleet is less than 5 years old, and lowfloor fully accessible, compared to only 45% in Dublin!

invincibleirish

may i refer ye to this thread here(not aware of accuracy,im trying to hunt down the stats)not so surprising stat ,again i dunno if its correct but i wouldnt be surprised if it is.


p.s.,i talk about cork and replys have been about cork,im not intending it to be cork specific im sure other cities like limerick and galway would also have cause for complaint.

jank

If you lost the victim complex, we might take you more seriously. As it is, you just read like you're petulant and jealous.

?? Well if thats the way you look at it.. then your obviously right :rolleyes:

As i said Dublin is perfectly entittled to get the lions share of funds (didnt I say that!) BUT there are 2.5 million other Irish people living in the country who get very little if nothing at all!

The Cork-Dublin train is a joke. Journey times of 2.5 up to 3.5 hourse, you can drive it nowdays for less then that. At at almost 60 euro return!! well you can fly it return for a bit more. You get the picture!

IMO I really hope Cork doesnt become another Dublin with its endless list of problems and I think the people in charge of things down there seeing that and are trying to learn from the mistakes. However the proper funds are needed ASAP in the infastructure to prevent this from happening.

In the future and I mean 20-30 years time I strongly feel that Cork will be a big rival in terms of government investment and overseas investments.
It has the largest natural harbour in the country, a booming airport, 2 good third level insitiutions (with plans for a thrid), and very very wide range of industries.

Dublin will always be the capital and up to know really had things its own but I think a mess has been made of it and the last 10 years will be looked back upon as a wasted oppertunity to turn Dublin into a Capital it really deserves to be.
Unfortunately I think you will agree, other cities in the country will learn from that mistake and (hopefully) not commit them again.

Hagar

This thread is much more entertaining if you read the first post aloud in a whiny Cork accent.
Try it, you'll see what I mean.

No offence intended.

jank

I thought the dublin accent is much more whinny, the cork one is well... just cork with a lot of "like" and "boy" thrown in there.

sliabh

jank wrote:

As i said Dublin is perfectly entittled to get the lions share of funds (didnt I say that!) BUT there are 2.5 million other Irish people living in the country who get very little if nothing at all!

A fairly sweeping inaccurate statement if ever I heard one. I am from Limerick and I am pretty sure that there is loads of money being spent around the rest of the country on roads, (Limerick bypass, Shannon tunnel, Lynch tunnel, Foynes and Rosslare harbour upgrades etc. etc.)

I think the real problem is that much of the money allocated for the ROTC is being spent badly on daft parish pump schemes (like e.g. 3 regional airports in Connacht - Galway, Knock and Sligo) that are there purely to buy off some lobby that threatened to run a single issue candidate at the next election. Stop whinging about money going to Dublin and start asking your local politicians why the national spatial strategy designated dozens of development locations so that nowhere in the country can ever develop the critical mass to present a viable alternative to Dublin.

Oh and as a city dweller I want to know why I pay 15-20% extra for groceries just so we can subsidise the farming sector (now at <8% of the Irish economy and falling) while also impoverishing developing countries (costing the average EU family €600 per year - the farmers tax). It's not infrastructure, but it's probably the biggest wealth transfer going on in this country. At least with infrastructure it's a once off and there is something to show for it at the end.

Capt'n Midnight

sliabh wrote:

It's not infrastructure, but it's probably the biggest wealth transfer going on in this country.

Don't forget how much developers are getting for new houses, or land for roads. This is important because in the Dublin area many people don't choose to live in Naas or Navan but go because it's the only place they can afford. I mention the Dublin area because of the number of extra car-miles involved. This sprawl also undermines development of public transport too.

Imposter

sliabh wrote:

Oh and as a city dweller I want to know why I pay 15-20% extra for groceries just so we can subsidise the farming sector (now at <8% of the Irish economy and falling) while also impoverishing developing countries (costing the average EU family €600 per year - the farmers tax). It's not infrastructure, but it's probably the biggest wealth transfer going on in this country. At least with infrastructure it's a once off and there is something to show for it at the end.

What do you mean you pay 15-20% extra? Do you mean that your groceries cost 20% more in a supermarket than they do in a similar supermarket in a more rural area? If so I fail to see where the farmer benifits.

In fact if there was no subsidies to farmers, people would be paying an awful lot more for irish farm produce or else would be consuming foreign produce which would still probably cost more than these items cost at the moment.

Where does this 600€ per family figure come from?

There are also services that are available to city folk that are not available to people living in the country (towns, villages and rural areas all included) yet they still pay tax towards them.

I presume your argument about impoverishing developing countries would also hold up if your job was moved to one of these countries? Seeing as you're from Limerick imagine Dell moved all it's Irish operations somewhere else. What sort of a city would Limerick be then? How much does Dell or Intel or any of these places get in grants off the Irish government? Why is that any different to what the farmers get?

jank

Stop whinging about money going to Dublin and start asking your local politicians why the national spatial strategy designated dozens of development locations so that nowhere in the country can ever develop the critical mass to present a viable alternative to Dublin.

You obviously dont have a clue then what the National Spatial strategy is then.

The idea is to spread the people, jobs and money to other locations in the country TO provide an alternative, not to turn Limerick or Cork to another big urban sprawl that is Dublin



Read more here

sliabh

I am a bit loathe to respond to this, in fact I regretted adding that aside as soon as I posted it, as I feel it gets away from the topic in hand (baiting Cork people )

But I will give this one response only, feel free to have the last word!

Imposter wrote:

What do you mean you pay 15-20% extra? Do you mean that your groceries cost 20% more in a supermarket than they do in a similar supermarket in a more rural area?

No the delightful Common Agricultural Policy ensures that we all pay above the international market rates for agricultural produce by artificially inflating prices in order to provide "price support" to the agricultural sector. But the benefit goes to the agricultural sector not to the consumer.

Adding to the tarrif burden, we pay taxes which are passed indirectly to the EU. And they then are paid back to farmers. This came to about €40Bn in direct payments across the EU from the CAP in 2001 (half of all EU spending). And when you add in the price supports and tax breaks the total comes to a whopping €104Bn. These are OECD figures.

So everyone pays more at the supermarket and those of us who are not farmers also pay out in taxes. Now the figures above are for the EU as a whole, but Ireland was collecting €1.19Bn Net per year of this! This made us the joint 3rd highest recipient in the EU with Greece, and we certainly don't have the 3rd largest agricultural sector (European Commission Figures).

Imposter wrote:

In fact if there was no subsidies to farmers, people would be paying an awful lot more for irish farm produce

This is true.

Imposter wrote:

or else would be consuming foreign produce which would still probably cost more than these items cost at the moment.

But I dont see how this is. If foreign produced products are more expensive why do we need tarrifs on them?

Imposter wrote:

There are also services that are available to city folk that are not available to people living in the country (towns, villages and rural areas all included) yet they still pay tax towards them.

Possibly. But the net flow is very definitely from urban to rural areas.

Imposter wrote:

I presume your argument about impoverishing developing countries would also hold up if your job was moved to one of these countries? Why is that any different to what the farmers get?

declaration: I work in the IT industry (in services so it's a lot easier to move my job than a manufacturing one) and my GF has already had one job outsourced to India from under her.

This is completly different as the IT and manufacturing industries are getting nowhere near the levels of subvention that agriculture is. And manufacturing and services pay back very large amounts of corporation tax and PAYE from their employees. Services, and to a lesser extent manufacturing are the engines of this economy (92% of it).

And these two areas don't expect the government to tax agriculture just so we can avoid competing with the rest of the world on a level playing field.

The reaction to the IT industry to the growth in off-shoring is to adapt and find new markets (usually higher skilled so generating better returns). But the agricultural sector's answer is to go crying for more Governement money or as happened recently in Carlingford to try and illegally blockade a port where grain importing was happening.

sliabh

jank wrote:

You obviously dont have a clue then what the National Spatial strategy is then.

The idea is to spread the people, jobs and money to other locations in the country TO provide an alternative, not to turn Limerick or Cork to another big urban sprawl that is Dublin

Read more here

I know exactly what the intent is, to theoretically counter balance the endless growth of Dublin.

However the execution indicates that it is to be a vote grabbing exercise for FF. I don't advocate developing a second city the size of Dublin (and if that was going to happen anywhere it would be Belfast) but it is recognised that you can balance the development by encouring a small number of centres, i.e. Cork, Limerick and Galway. With the right infrastructure and facilities these can offer companies like eBay (who refused point blank to locate anywhere other than Dublin) an alternative to the capital.

The scatter gun approach which was adopted in the spatial strategy (and that died once the decentralisation plan was announced which ignored the spatial plan) is something for everyone. This will not work as few places can offer the alternative that Dublin can.

I worked for three years in a midlands town for a multi-national. The company executive's view was that if they were doing it again they would not have located the factory there. They preferred to move to a much larger centre and Dublin, Limerick, Galway and Cork were the preferred options. The reasons were, better infrastructure (they were too far from ports and airports), greater number and quality of support services available and staff shortages were a problem too, both for skilled and unskilled workers.

From my point of view the town was a dump as well. At the first chance I moved to the nearest city and made a 30 mile commute each way daily. We used have a very high turnover of graduates who did not want to live there after a year or two. The quality of life just wasn't there.

But with 5 or 6 major centres, developed properly could offer a compelling alternative to Dublin.

Metrobest

A quick look at the national population distribution shows that Cork has gotten a huge slice of the national transport pie. Tunnels have been bored in the name of Cork's most famous taoiseach; roads have been built left, right and centre. Not only that, Millions of euros are being ploughed into tarting Cork up for its year of culture. And yet we have people coming on this forum complaining it is hard done by. Talk about greedy!

Zaph0d

invincibleirish wrote:

i mean i understand dublin is the main urban area for the country but it is unfair that it seems to get hugely preferential treatment,i say this as a bitter corkman ...

Why does West Cork have none of the developments that are going on in Cork city? No airports, not even a landing strip, no railway, no motorway to Dublin. Is this not unfair? Cork city people think they're so great, it's as if we don't exist. It makes my blood boil. Up Skibbereen, the real capital of Cork.

Metrobest

Zaph0d wrote:

Why does West Cork have none of the developments that No airports. It makes my blood boil.

I somehow can't see how you could run a viable airport in West Cork. Skib International, anyone?

P11 Comms

jank wrote:

?? Dublin will always be the capital and up to know really had things its own but I think a mess has been made of it and the last 10 years will be looked back upon as a wasted oppertunity to turn Dublin into a Capital it really deserves to be.

Dublin has improved massively in the last 10 years. In terms of public transport it is light years ahead of what was being offered in 1994. Luas, QBC etc. Right now, we are at a situation were the LUAS is being expanded and we are deciding of if to build a Metro or Interconnector. Progress is being made.

As for public transport is Cork being woeful, I agree there. The bus service is a disaster and should be completely overhauled and a dedicaited Cork Bus Company on the lines of Dublin Bus should be set up, as a city of 200,000 people having a bus service which is little more a Bus Eireann nixer is a joke in this day and age.

I also think the a light rail system would be viable for Cork. Perhaps one line connecting the Western suburbs via the city centre to Kent station.

As for Midleton reopening, the reason why the line is not going to Youghal is because Cork City and County Councils decided upon this. They put the buffer stops at Midleton. Also, to date not one of the closed railways lines around Dublin has been reopened as a railway line proper. Cork is way ahead of Dublin there. Harcourt Street line only opened half its lenght as a tram, while Clonsilla-Navan remains a trail weeds.

But overall I do agree that Cork public transport needs to be set in place for serious development at this point in the city's development. But that's up to Cork polticians being more proactive and not following the West of Ireland and pointing the finger endlessly at Dublin while screming "guilty!" and doing nothing themselves to make public transport more viable.

jank wrote:

Unfortunately I think you will agree, other cities in the country will learn from that mistake and (hopefully) not commit them again.

Sligo is driving a major highway right though its heart, while also building a skyscraper in a field two miles from the centre. Some learning process...

Kaner

As for like schpelling and punctuation boy

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg.
The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid. Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at
Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a
wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be
in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed
it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey
lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I
awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt.

MG

Virtually all of the investment in infrastructure in Cork has been in road structure and in this regard Cork is coming close to having a reasonable road network, notwithstanding the penny pinching disasters that are the Kinsale Road Roundabout and the tunnel roundabout. (There are two short sighted plans which will cost a lot to fix – is it okay to have this sentence in brackets? Actually nevermind, I don’t care). Unfortunately, there has no parallel similar investment in public transport. This could be a case study in the need to balance public transport investment with road investment. The fine road infrastructure in all in vain as it is overloaded with cars. The Jack Lynch Tunnel for instance is dealing, I believe, with about twice the number of cars it was designed to deal with. The consequences are the mile long queues to get into the tunnel. (tolling it would be a disaster BTW).

The investment needed in Cork is in Public Transport. The Bus network does need to be separated into its own company and a proper integrated network established. (I never thought I’d agree with P11). However, a bus system will NEVER work on its own. As a general rule, Bus passengers aspire to own cars and no car owner takes the bus. The only way to get people out of their cars and onto public transport is with rail. This is why investment in city rail is never wasted and why arguments such as “we could get 50 new buses with toilets and TV for the price of a rail system” should be rejected. A light rail system running from Kent to Ballincollig via the city centre and UCC would alleviate many of the city’s traffic problems. (I never thought P11 would agree with me). This has many advantages – transport for Ballincollig, integration with the isolated Kent station for the lines which run in there and a “moving footpath” for the city centre etc. Grenoble & Montpellier are two examples of successful fairly recent light rail projects in cities of comparable size to Cork. Whatever about Cork getting more or less, at least make sure its well spent.

ishmael whale

invincibleirish wrote:

may i refer ye to this thread here(not aware of accuracy,im trying to hunt down the stats)not so surprising stat ,again i dunno if its correct but i wouldnt be surprised if it is.

http://www.cso.ie/publications/finance/regincome.pdf

Fine, now for the reality. The above CSO publication details county incomes and regional GDP. If you know of a more up to date publication, as distinct from some unsupported figure on peoplesrepublicofcork.com, then post it up.

Cutting to the chase, Table 11 on page 23 reveals the following:

Total household income for State = 76,365 m
Total household income for Dublin = 26,578 m (35% of total)
Total household income for Mid East = 8,026 m (11% of total)
(Mid East = Kildare,Meath,Wicklow)
Total household income for Dublin/Mid East = 34,604 m (46% of total)
Total household income for Cork = 8,390 m (11% of total)
Total household income for rest = 33,371 m (43% of total)

So, clearly, Cork is important – it contributes about the same as the mid East region to national wealth, but as might be expected only about one third of what Dublin produces.

Now lets look at the net tax take – that is, the tax paid by residents of a particular county, less any social transfers paid to them, such as children’s allowance, state pensions etc.

Net tax paid by households in State = 14,834m tax – 11,113m transfers = 3,721 m
Net tax paid by Dublin = 5,576m – 3,355m = 2,221m (60% of total)
Net tax paid by mid East = 1,674m – 925m = 749m (20% of total)
Net tax paid by Dublin/mid East = 2,221m + 749m = 2,970m (80% of total)
Net tax paid by Cork = 1,633m – 1,286m = 347m (9% of total)
Net tax paid by rest = 5951m – 5547m = 404m (11% of total)

So, as you can see, Dublin on its own accounts for more than half of the tax take from Irish households, including mid East increases this to 80%. Cork makes a significant contribution, and nearly as much as the rest of the non Dublin/mid East counties combined. But you will also note that despite having slightly more income than the mid East region (ie Kildare,Meath,Wicklow) Cork only contributes half of what those counties give in terms of net tax take.

No doubt you will now want to rush off to peoplesrepublicofcork.com to point out to the langers how wrong they are.

Bottom line is of course Cork should be earmarked as a centre for development. Your argument is not with Dublin. Its with every mickey mouse town in Mayo that also wants to be a centre for development. They’re the ones spending the money that you should be getting.

Can't it just boil down to the fact that Dublin Rocks, while Cork shuts the door on places like Sir Henry's? The Taoiseach is from here, the Dail is here, the decisions are made here.
Dublin deserves more with the stresses of living in Dublin. AND we have to put up with our culchie cousins comin' up every weekend and roaring their heads off at the GAA while we're trying to nurse sensible hangovers on a Sunday morning!

And, yes I have lived down the country before. In cork city if you must know.

*I think I might have gone off topic a bit there

Crossley

Re the Cork bus service, I'm convinced the reason it's in the state it's in is managerial rather than financial. Cork has nearly twice the population of Limerick yet has less bus trips per person. Bus Eireann in Cork is the personification of all that is bad in CIE management. There has been no real attempt to service the existing customer demand not to mention generate new business. I think I'm right in saying that the City Services have less routes now than they had in the forties and fifties. Areas such as Ballincollig, Carrigaline and Glanmire, which now have large, dense populations, still have to depend on infrequent rural services. As has been pointed out the Cork fleet is younger than its Dublin counterpart but the casual observer would be very surprised to hear it. Brand new buses appear a week or two after their introduction looking like someone spent an afternoon repeatedly driving them into a wall ! The main bus station up to it's recent closure for refurbishment was a filthy disgrace.

parsi

Metrobest wrote:

But when you're on a public forum could you make some effort to write coherently? I'm sure I'm not alone in finding the text with which you began this thread utterly annoying.

Are you allowed start a sentence with "but" ? Indeed am I allowed start a sentence with "are" ?

BrianD

Cork City has a pretty good road system I thought. They also lead the way with the park and ride initiatives There certainly seems to be scope for rail development in and around the city.

At least they are upgrading the N8 ... you'll be able to get up to Dublin quicker and see where the lions share is being spent!!!

P11 Comms

Crossley wrote:

Re the Cork bus service, I'm convinced the reason it's in the state it's in is managerial rather than financial. Cork has nearly twice the population of Limerick yet has less bus trips per person. Bus Eireann in Cork is the personification of all that is bad in CIE management. There has been no real attempt to service the existing customer demand not to mention generate new business. I think I'm right in saying that the City Services have less routes now than they had in the forties and fifties. Areas such as Ballincollig, Carrigaline and Glanmire, which now have large, dense populations, still have to depend on infrequent rural services. As has been pointed out the Cork fleet is younger than its Dublin counterpart but the casual observer would be very surprised to hear it. Brand new buses appear a week or two after their introduction looking like someone spent an afternoon repeatedly driving them into a wall ! The main bus station up to it's recent closure for refurbishment was a filthy disgrace.

Have you ever looked at a map of Cork and then look at the bus routes. It is like BE Cork City services are still serviing the 1940's city. It would be like as if Dublin Bus terminated all their services inside a circle from Terenure to Whitehall in 2004 ignoring the rest of the city. It is really quite amazing and I find it surprising that people in Cork put up with this nonsense.

As for the light rail system, I don't think it should be because Kent Station is isolated from the city centre (it's not really) - I think that Cork as a city would be prime for a light rail system along its small streets rather than constantly tagging-on more and more extra buses which will increase the congestion. A system similar to the new Nottingham Tram (which I was on a few weeks back and is a very clever track system) would be ideal for Cork. The line could divide in two as it passes through the city centre so you have the double track line split into single track routes to provide internal services in the city centre. They merge again as the approach the train station on the eastern leg and Balincollig on the western side. How could that not be viable? It would not be too expensive to build either.

Anyway, I have been doing some research on light rail systems and come to the conclusion that Luas is one of the best light rail system in the world yet constructed (despite the gap and the lenght). Compared to all the others I have been visiting it works like a dream. For the longest while I thought the USA-style "interurban" approach for Dublin would backfire, but it works really well. All we need now are 40M trams on the Tallaght line with 30M trams being sent down to Cork.

BrianD

All we need now are 40M trams on the Tallaght line with 30M trams being sent down to Cork.

Oh dear, typical Dublin thinking ... sending your cast offs down to Cork!! You walked into that one P11. The Cork mafia will be looking for you!

MG

P11 Comms wrote:

I don't think it should be because Kent Station is isolated from the city centre (it's not really)

As the sole station in Cork, it is quite isolated from the city centre - at least a 10 minute walk from the start of Patrick Street or South Mall, 15-20 from Grand Parade and perhaps 25-30 mins from UCC, probably the biggest commuter end destination in Cork city. Moreover, it does not actually enter the city but stops at the edge and never really enters the consiousness of the citizens. It is also isolated as regards connecting bus services, although I believe there are plans to introduce shuttle. I know for a fact that many people are put off using the current commuter services because there is usually a 20 minute walk at the end of their train journey. In most other cities with light rail, the rail is at most a ten minute walk from any important commuter destination i.e. a commercial or academic centre.