CE Markings on BCDs

Scubachick

As you should be aware, the Irish Government introduces new legislation regarding the wearing of personal floatation devices last summer (see http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/files/marleisSI259-2004.doc for more info). What this means to divers is that we have to wear a personal floatation device on the boat and kit up at the dive site. The only way around this is if your BCD has the correct CE marking identifying as safe to proper European standards.

Does anybody know which makes/ models of BCD have the correct markings? Hopefully some of you have a spreadsheet/ list

Scubachick

Borzoi

Scubachick wrote:

Does anybody know which makes/ models of BCD have the correct markings? Hopefully some of you have a spreadsheet/ list

Scubachick

I think we have an exemption:

This Regulation does not apply to a person on board a pleasure craft (other than a personal watercraft), which is not under way, when the person-

(a) is wearing, putting on, or taking off, scuba diving equipment, or

(b) is about to engage in, or has just completed swimming (including snorkelling) from the craft.

So carry on. By the way, I think kudos to the council who lobbied for the exemption

Scubachick

Initially I thought that this was a loophole for divers too. However, this means that you are legally allowed to don your scuba gear before and after a dive ONLY. You still need to be wearing a CE Standard PFD while the boat is in transit to/ from the dive site.

I double checked this with the girls in the office at the Irish Underwater Council at their AGM earlier this month. They are still activly campagning to get divers a dispensation from this piece of legislation. But as it stands, we still need a PFD.

Obviously, a list of CE standard BCDs would be of help to any of you planning on buying or selling BCDs too.

Borzoi

Scubachick wrote:

Initially I thought that this was a loophole for divers too. However, this means that you are legally allowed to don your scuba gear before and after a dive ONLY. You still need to be wearing a CE Standard PFD while the boat is in transit to/ from the dive site.
.

Oops yes, you're so right.

Scubachick

So, after an afternoon's investigative work this is what I found out:

No BCD is covered by the legislation. Every diver MUST wear a personal flotation device while in transit to/ from dive sites.

A CE marking means that the object conforms to European Conformity and Safety standards - but only if used for what it is intended. eg: a teddybear will have a CE mark, but you cannot dive with it! Therefore, the CE marking on any BCD means that it is safe for diving, but not necessarily suitable to use as a personal floatation device. Therefore a BCD does not conform to the European Conformity standards for personal floatation devices.

This means that there will be no more kitting up at the slipway/ harbour. All dive gear is to roll around the boat under people's feet. [tongue in cheek] In transit to the dive site you must wear a personal floatation device. Those of you in RIBS must try to keep your PFD dry in case you activate CO2 canister, thereby inflating your PFD inside the boat. All divers are to prey very hard while in transit that a bow wave doesn't set off all the PFDs at once. Upon reaching the dive site, all divers will attempt to kit up together and carefully avoid pushing one another off the boat or droping kit on toes. This is no mean feat for those of us who are prone to seasickness. While on the dive and when you return to the boat, ensure that your PFDs are kept dry in case the CO2 cylinder is activated. :rolleyes:

I think you will all agree that legally obliging all pleasure craft users to don a life jacket/ personal floatation device is a good idea. However, as divers in full kit we are more than suitably equiped for floating in the sea. If you would like to air your views and perhaps lobby the Department of Communications Marine and Natural Resources (DCMNR) to alter this legislation email Eoghan Beecher: eoghan.beecher[at]dcmnr.gov.ie


Also, if you think that I have got it all wrong (which I am hoping!) please feel free to put me straight!

bigfeller

Scubachick wrote:

Those of you in RIBS must try to keep your PFD dry in case you activate CO2 canister, thereby inflating your PFD inside the boat. All divers are to prey very hard while in transit that a bow wave doesn't set off all the PFDs at once. Upon reaching the dive site, all divers will attempt to kit up together and carefully avoid pushing one another off the boat or droping kit on toes.

Most PFDs can have the automatic part of the inflator removed very easily (you just screw it off). Or like me, if you keep forgetting then just buy a manual (cost about €70) - cheaper than continually recharging an automatic one (about €20).

Personally I think it's a good idea to wear a pfd - as someone who got knocked overboard while sailing this year I was damn glad to be wearing it. I'm a pretty good swimmer but the water was cold and I was wearing heavy trousers and boots. I think most clubs kit up once they get to a site - wearing the gear out can be a bit hard on the spine!!

Evil Phil

Can you get a suitable non-inflating pfd?

bigfeller

sure - buy a manual and remove gas canister!!

But you can buy pfds that are foam (might not be) filled. The type that canoeists etc wear. But I think they are about the same price as a manual inflating one.

gjim

Hi. I'm new here. Surely this regulation doesn't apply. I don't understand your interpretation, Scubachick. The regulation says that a PFD isn't required if the person

(a) is wearing, putting on, or taking off, scuba diving equipment, or

Dry suits and wet suits are "scuba diving equipment" so while wearing a suit you don't need to wear a PFD. Seems clear enough to me.

dublinbay

Any craft under 7m, passengers are required to wear a PFD/Lifejacket. This term DOES NOT apply to BCDs whether CE marked or not. Read the label on your BCD/Dry suit............." this is not a PFD/Lifejacket..........." or words to that effect. Diving off a rib? get a Dept of the Marine recognised lifejacket! Them is de new rools.

Peace

PFD's from what i know about them are meant to leave you lying on your back if the wearer is in the water unconcious.

My dive gear won't do that. My dry suit won't do that. Infact if you wear wing type bc's then they can often push you forward so you face is in the water, exactly the opposite effect you want when unconcious in the water.

donny

From the AP Valves (Buddy) website...
I wonder does this qualify Buddy jackets

Why are the jackets CE marked?

The Personal Protective Equipment Directive (European legislation) requires manufacturers to certify that their product meets the requirements of the Directive. We do this by having the jackets independently tested by an Approved Body and by having our manufacturing system approved to ISO 9002.
All BUDDY jackets, with the exception of the Trident wing, meet the requirements of the prEN 12628 Euro NORM in that they hold the diver either on his back or upright with mouth clear of the water surface. It's very re-assuring to know that you can relax at the end of the dive and wait for the boat without having to balance yourself by continually finning or arm flapping. The wings style jacket is made to satisfy a niche market requirement and is only suitable for experienced divers, using multiple cylinders.

Independently tested and approved to the Euro NORM prEN1809, all BUDDY jackets carry the CE label showing the year of approval and the identification number (0088) of Lloyds Quality Control and are manufactured under a Lloyds audited ISO 9002 Quality Control System.

Scubachick

GJim, the quotation you used is out of context. The full text of that sentance states:

(5) This Regulation does not apply to a person on board a pleasure craft (other than a personal watercraft), which is not under way, when the person-

(a) is wearing, putting on, or taking off, scuba diving equipment, or

(b) is about to engage in, or has just completed swimming (including snorkelling) from the craft.

This basically means that we must wear a PFD while in transit but we are legally allowed to remove our PFDs to don scuba gear once the boat IS NOT UNDER WAY.

Of course, you are all right about being able to use PFDs that do not have the CO2 canister. I was just trying to exaggerate how silly this law is for divers (my opinion). As Kitted up divers we are more than adequately ready to bob around the surface for hours. To ask us to remove our life saving gear and replace it with other gear seems superfluous. The law is a great idea for other sea users who would not have all the floatation that us divers have. In fact, it would be good to extend the law to include some sort of exposure suits, as hypothermia can be a real problem to boat users who are exposed to sea spray.

But, as it stands, us divers can no longer kit up before the boat has reached the dive site. The Irish Underwater Council (CFT) have confirmed this to me this morning. They also stated that they only know of one BCD that seems to be covered by the new legislation, a Scubapro (they didn't state which model).

gjim

Whoops. I missed the "under way" bit. That's the most stupid thing I've heard. If scuba gear is sufficient when the rib is bobbing about, surely it's good enough when it's under way.

Why did CFT not fight for a better exemption?

I'd be quite prepared to jump into a cold chop in my drysuit beside somone in jeans and a jumper and a PFD to demostrate which is the more effective life preserving equipment.

What's going to happen at dive centres? Especially with tourists and foreigners who won't own a PFD. Wil the centres have to buy them and hire them out? We'll be a laughing stock. Did they model these regulations on those of some other country?

donny

gjim wrote:

Why did CFT not fight for a better exemption?

I'd be quite prepared to jump into a cold chop in my drysuit beside somone in jeans and a jumper and a PFD to demostrate which is the more effective life preserving equipment.

What's going to happen at dive centres? Especially with tourists and foreigners who won't own a PFD. Wil the centres have to buy them and hire them out? We'll be a laughing stock. Did they model these regulations on those of some other country?

CFT actually fought quite hard against this and encouraged everyone to write to the minister at the time.

You're right about the drysuit bit.... CFT are trying to get an exemption still. Hopefully something will happen soon.

Most dive centres would have a 7m rib or greater. If not... then yes people will have to rent a pfd from the centre

Miss Polaris

Without loosing the plot too much..... but what the F**K makes us as divers, special and excempt from an important safety legislation.

PFD are that - automatic or manual - choice is yours as long as it is 150N

Buoyancy Aids (The foam ones) are not covered by legislation, unless you buy a SOLAS one used on merchant ships (>150N) and not practical to wear.

So dont be so pig headed as CFT were being and wear the damn PFD. It could save your life and make things a damn site easier for the SAR mission out to get you if you are overboard.

Divers have such complacency when it comes to the sea and safety at sea (gross generalisation I know) BUT SHE (the sea) IS NOT CHOOSY!!! If she wants you she will take you in, diver or not, and the waves are always hungry....

Modern PFD's are slim light weight and practical as anyone who has been on a modern passenger licenced RIB will tell you. €80 will get you a decent one, manual inflator.

Diving equipment will not be sufficient to keep you floating in the sea...how many of you have been out in a force 6 or above and seen great big atlantic swells? Wanna take you chances there without a PFD - good luck to you.

RANT AND RAVE OVER = BAD DAY

Sorry <<<ducking now for barrage of abuse and flames and replies>>>

Ignore me, I need chocolate.....

Evil Phil

€80 is pretty cheap if you ask me.

gjim

No barrage of flames, Miss P. - just reasoned argument.

Diving equipment will not be sufficient to keep you floating in the sea...how many of you have been out in a force 6 or above and seen great big atlantic swells? Wanna take you chances there without a PFD - good luck to you.

I've been out in reasonably swelly seas in a few different types of boats; it can be awesome in a literal sense. And yes if I'm not in my drysuit heading out to a dive, I personally wouldn't step into a rib, 7m or otherwise without a PFD even if there was no wind whatsoever.

However....

Do you honestly believe that you'd survive longer with a PFD over clothing than you would in a drysuit? If you're about to be plopped into a 4m Atlantic swell and were offered a drysuit or a PFD over normal clothing, which would you pick?

Correct me if I'm wrong but you never hear of divers drowning or being lost after falling out of ribs. Mostly these tragedies (where wearing a PFD would have helped) seem to involve people on recreational fishing trips and the like. The regulations, if the intent is to save lives, ought to focus on such boat users and not impose completely unnecessary obligations on other users who will derive no safety benefit from following them. Regulation for it's own sake is annoying in the extreme.

Peace

Yes i'd agree i'd pick my dry suit over a PFD & street clothes.

However, i've been out on a rib in big seas and i was the only diver to see another diver standing at the back of the rib get thrown off the deck and against the A Frame and then landed back on the deck. Weird i konw but hey, it happened. He wasn't paying attention ... fixing a bit of kit and we hit a big wave.

Now you can all see what i'm saying here. What if i wasn't looking in his direction. And say he hit his head on the A Frame and didn't land back in the boat. Now he's unconcious lying in the water. It could have been several minutes before anyone noticed he was gone. It was such a rainy and horrible day everyone had the heads down and facing forward.

And to make it all worse none of us were wearing PFD's.

Evil_Phil is dead right, 80eurobucks is dead cheap.

Miss Polaris is also correct, even though she had just swallowed a whole bucket of crazy... ... wearing a PFD to and from is no hasstle at all. I've been on a rib that does this and i'm happy to do it.

Scubachick

Of course, all sea users should wear some sort of floatation and it is great to see the government finally legislating this. In fact, the law should be extended to include exposure suits, as hypothermia can be a real problem. In the past I worked for a voluntary marine rescue service. I have pulled in people suffering from hypothermia a lot more often than a body being kept afloat with a PFD. Most of the time these victims simply went to sea in jeans AND a PFD and the sea spray got to them before they could get back to shore.

However, as fully kitted divers we are already more than ready to bob around in the sea without adding a PFD to our long list of life preserving equipment. Yes, it is a relatively cheap to buy a PFD. However, I do not like the fact that us divers are being asked to remove life saving equipment and replace it with a floatation device. Given the option, I would much rather to fall in wearing a drysuit AND full scuba gear rather than a drysuit and a PFD. With the scuba unit you are more than ready to bob around a stormy sea as you can pop your reg in and let the waves crash overhead. The mask will help you to see. If your are out of Air the snorkel can help things. If not, it might be an option to swim sub surface towards the shore and get your self out of the surge. (Not advocating solo diving here but it is an option in life & death situation and if there are no boats in the area!) If there are boats around then I could use whistles, safety sausages, personal flares, torches etc tied to my BCD. Any and all of these can be used to attract attention and most divers have at least one of them (shame on you, if not!!). The wet suit hood will help keep in the heat. Meanwhile, many PFDs are simply brightly coloured (like many BCDs) and have radar reflectors (like a wet suit hood/ dry suit). In my opinion, asking divers to remove all this equipment and replace it with a PFD seems nonsense.

Gjim, I have heard of divers getting lost at sea and separated from the boat, even in full kit. However, a PFD would not help this situation more than if the victim was wearing full scuba kit. The only argument I can see for us wearing a lifejacket is that if we are unconscious we will be floating in a face up/ airway open position. Fat lot of good that is when the waves are crashing overhead! Also, the legislation is for PFDs, which do not necessarily hold an airway open for an unconscious victim.

Anybody else think that removing scubagear in favour of a PFD will put a diver more at risk?

NordicDiver

Scubachick wrote:

In fact, the law should be extended to include exposure suits

Silly, what will be the next? only allowed out on the sea if less than force 1 !

Scubachick wrote:

However, I do not like the fact that us divers are being asked to remove life saving equipment and replace it with a floatation device.

Don`t you take off your bcd (with all your gadgets) when traveling in a RIB?

Scubachick wrote:

If your are out of Air the snorkel can help things.

snorkel ?

Scubachick

Just to reply to your comments, NordicDiver:

I have been called out to sea (as part of the Rescue Services) to help a boat/ its occupants in distress. Thankfully, people have the cop on (generally) to call for help BEFORE its too late. Many of these call-outs result in pleasure users of the sea setting out without proper equipment: engine spares, radios, navigation stuff, etc. More often than not, by the time we get to these people they are really really cold. Hypothermia is life threatening, but many sea users think they will be grand in jeans with a PFD. (and sometimes even without a PFD!). They don't seem to realise that a little sea spray on the clothes can make one VERY cold. Especially, if the planned trip was unforseeably delayed. Hypothermia/ cold is definately a more common incident than someone falling overboard. Of course the latter can also cause the former. To add an exposure suit to the new legislation would greatly help this situation - but you are right, it is a bit OTT!

No, I don't take off my BCD when travelling out to the dive site. Luckily, there are so many dive sites around Kilkee that I am rarely in transit for more than 10 mins. Also, I am pron to sea sickness ( ) and kitting up at sea makes this worse. That said, I rarely replace my kit for the return journey - but if BCDs were covered in the legislation I would.

The snorkel comment: Have you ever been bobing around in a choppy sea and got a mouth full of water when you inhale? Sometimes wearing your snorkel prevents/ minimises this. It is recommended diving practice to always wear a snorkel attached to your mask. As a result, it is a habbit I got into. It's just stuck there and hasn't been removed in 10 years! I have used it several times in situations like this.

Miss Polaris

gjim wrote:

Do you honestly believe that you'd survive longer with a PFD over clothing than you would in a drysuit? If you're about to be plopped into a 4m Atlantic swell and were offered a drysuit or a PFD over normal clothing, which would you pick?.

If out at sea it is always advised to wear appropriate protective clothing, be it immersion suit, dry suit, sailing gear etc...wearing ordinary clothes in an atlantic 4m swell...well thats just....

gjim wrote:

me if I'm wrong but you never hear of divers drowning or being lost after falling out of ribs. Mostly these tragedies (where wearing a PFD would have helped) seem to involve people on recreational fishing trips and the like.

We have had this discussion or very similar before.

Check the stats before making such points. Accidents and near miss reporting in this country is a little haphazard at the best of times.

Miss Polaris

Peace wrote:

Evil_Phil is dead right, 80eurobucks is dead cheap.

Miss Polaris is also correct, even though she had just swallowed a whole bucket of crazy... ... wearing a PFD to and from is no hasstle at all. I've been on a rib that does this and i'm happy to do it.

Thanks :-)

Bit calmer today -

Need pressure of a H2O kind....

No one gets a spin on my RIB without a PFD...no exceptions.

Miss Polaris

Scubachick wrote:

No, I don't take off my BCD when travelling out to the dive site..

Sure thats all grand and Irish and CFT isnt it....

In reality, when knocked overboard (and possible unconcious) will you have time to check your air is on, jacket inflated, weights ditched etc etc...?? :rolleyes:

Also - very bad for your back, joints, muscles etc... etc....

We are back to old adage...some people should never be let out (to sea that is)....

Evil Phil

<pre-empt/>
Lets just keep it civil folks and it will all be okay.

NordicDiver

Scubachick wrote:

Many sea users think they will be grand in jeans with a PFD. (and sometimes even without a PFD!).

Scubachick wrote:

To add an exposure suit to the new legislation would greatly help this situation - but you are right, it is a bit OTT!

Seems like some boat owners need some common sense, can’t be the norm that RIB/open boat owners use jeans out in a choppy Atlantic sea ?

Don’t think we need more rules/new legislation thrown at us.

Scubachick wrote:

No, I don't take off my BCD when travelling out to the dive site. Luckily, there are so many dive sites around Kilkee that I am rarely in transit for more than 10 mins.

Last time I was out in a RIB, I was closer to Scotland than to Ireland, if i was to have my wing, twin 12, stages and all the rest of it on my back for 45 minutes RIB ride i would have broke my back and have some strange looks from fellow divers. So lucky you with dumpy 12L and 10 min RIB ride .

Scubachick wrote:

The snorkel comment: Have you ever been bobing around in a choppy sea and got a mouth full of water when you inhale?

Yes I have, but I just spit it out...snorkel i something I love to use when I go snorkelling

Come to think about it...i have a spare PFD without the CO2 cartridge (had to dump it at the airport, not allowed onboard) any bid ? 20 euros?

Scubachick

Miss Polaris wrote:

Sure thats all grand and Irish and CFT isnt it...

I did my training with BSAC and PADI!

Miss Polaris wrote:

In reality, when knocked overboard (and possible unconcious) will you have time to check your air is on, jacket inflated, weights ditched etc etc...?? :rolleyes..

Kilkee is blessed. 40 Dive sites (and more found each year) within 10 mins of the slipway . Because it is such a short journey we do buddy checks on the slipway and head off with air in the BCDs and cylinder on. This is common practice in Kilkee, not just in our club but at the PADI school. Visiting clubs seem to kit up on the slip also.

Miss Polaris wrote:

Also - very bad for your back, joints, muscles etc... etc...

You are right there ! But again, because of the brevity of the journeys it doesn't affect too many of us (and I am just a girlie woss!!). Of course, the back is a funny thing and I could be slowly doing myself long term damage.

So, I am slowly coming around to the idea of having to kit up at sea. Anybody know a good supplier of reasonably priced PFDs in the West!!

Peace

Scubachick wrote:

I did my training with BSAC and PADI!

I seem to remeber some to the tune of....

Scubachick wrote:

However, instead of making me sit a test to see what I do or don't know, they are asking me to sit on each and every CFT course (basically start my training again). In addition, I have to do the CFT boat handling course and their rescue/ CPR training.
....
This is my third CFT club and the first time I have been given a CFT qualification (diver 2*!!) Pain in the tanks, but atleast I just get to go fun diving instead of my usual role of "weapons" control officer!

bigfeller

You could try marine supplies (like a fishermans co-op). They normally do gear like that a bit cheaper. No use to you but Western Marine in Dublin (where I got mine for €76) have a wide range, some cheaper than that. Bought that one because it's
a. more comfortable
b. dark green (easier to keep clean than my orange auto one)

Miss Polaris

Scubachick

try Union Chandlery in Cork they have XM quickfits - very reasonable