Vogts resigns as Scotland manager... Could anyone have done better?

Third_Echelon

Bertie Vogts as we all know has moved on as Scottish national team manager. From reading his personal statement he seems to have received a lot of abuse from the press and fans. This is understandable as the results have been poor.

My point is though, could anyone have done a decent job with the bunch of players the scots have at the moment. In fairness, they dont have a lot of talent on the team?

Betie's statement:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/3972921.stm

A Dub in Glasgo

Yes, a good team motivator and tactician would have done better. Who next? I don't know.

Third_Echelon

Strachan is the obvious choice...

Smith looks the like the most viable option. I dont think strachan wants to get back into management though, but saying that an international job would probably suit him more... who knows??

cournioni

I don't think I can recall any Scottish players other than Weir, Ferguson, McFadden, Fletcher and Hutchison. That says it all really. There is not enough talent in Scotland to have a successful team.

thejollyrodger

I think a scot could have squeezed more out of the players because of the national pride etc and someone like straken would have tatically everything right. Vogts didnt get the best out of "my boys". Thank god I wont be hearing that anymore.

Straken for manager !

and what does Atari Jaguar mean ?

Boro

The scottish team seem to be seriously lacking in quality. Didnt they make Darren Fletcher captain?!? I dont think anyone could have gotten anything more out of that team.

I think they have some good youngsters coming through now, but until then they will struggle, no matter who is in charge. Its a bit of a poisoned chalice tbh, people will always blame the manager rather than the team as he is the public figurehead.

Dont particularly rate mcBertie but he is better than the results show.

TheJollyRodger wrote:

and what does Atari Jaguar mean ?

Its an oldtimers thing Do a search for atari jaguar on boards, its got quite a history - like magic cards and tinfoil axes.

Gangsta

he could have made scotland a very hard side to beat like greece. wat was is record? sumtin like 16 defeats wasnt it? and didnt he manage germany aswell?

BaZmO*

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I don't think I can recall any Scottish players other than Weir, Ferguson, McFadden, Fletcher and Hutchison. That says it all really. There is not enough talent in Scotland to have a successful team.

Well in all fairness, with a population as big if not bigger than Ireland and with a domestic league lightyears ahead of ours surely they could be doing better than they have been.

B.

A Dub in Glasgo

The question was 'Would anyone have done better?', not would another manager have made Scotland successful'

Gangsta

ya but ireland has much more talented players. who in scotland is as good as duff or given for eg?

cournioni

BaZmO* wrote:

Well in all fairness, with a population as big if not bigger than Ireland and with a domestic league lightyears ahead of ours surely they could be doing better than they have been.

B.

Well I don't really think it is that far ahead of the eircom league. If you take Celtic and Rangers out of the Scottish league can you honestly say that the players in the SPL are better than EL players? I wouldn't.

Plus the fact that the SPL is littered with average foreign players. The EL is mainly made up of Irish players.

But back to my point. They really don't have any players other than the few I have mentioned that are worth a damn at International level, even at that some of the players I have mentioned aren't really international standard either.

thejollyrodger

Plus the fact that GAA is the biggest sport in this country !!

anyway
There isnt much hope for scotland at the moment, they just have to get back to basics and invest in youth schemes. A good tatical manager can get results though, greece and ireland in the past are good examples.

A Dub in Glasgo

So the 8 that voted no think that every other manager in the world would have had the same dismal record as Vogts with the same pool of players available?

Chong

Yes Dub the team is abismal to say the least, they've have may be 2 good players in Barry Ferguson and Darren Fletcher thats it.

A Dub in Glasgo

Willem D wrote:

Yes Dub the team is abismal to say the least, they've have may be 2 good players in Barry Ferguson and Darren Fletcher thats it.

I agree the team is not good. I have seen them 3 times recently (including a friendly against Ireland) but to say no other manager would have been better is a bit nuts. What about managers that take a bad team and do wonders with them to punch above their weight?

A team is more than just the quality of the individual players and Vogts failed abysmally. Better managers than Vogts will have been able to get better results and performances from the same pool of players.

eirebhoy

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Well I don't really think it is that far ahead of the eircom league. If you take Celtic and Rangers out of the Scottish league can you honestly say that the players in the SPL are better than EL players? I wouldn't.

There are 4 professional league's in Scotland while Ireland has about 4 full time teams, I don't think there's a SPL team with an average attendance of under 5,000. Its extremely rare that a Scottish team (minus Old Firm) would get knocked out of the UEFA cup before the second round proper. There are outstanding Eircom league players playing in the SPL where they look average. As much as I'd like to defend the Eircom league there' s a long way to go before it can be rated along side the Scottish league.

A Dub in Glasgo - Scotland did better than us in the last qualifiers coming runner up to Germany. Its the friendly results that make his record look so bad. I don't think another manager would have done any better.

Slash/ED

eirebhoy wrote:

There are 4 professional league's in Scotland while Ireland has about 4 full time teams, I don't think there's a SPL team with an average attendance of under 5,000. Its extremely rare that a Scottish team (minus Old Firm) would get knocked out of the UEFA cup before the second round proper. There are outstanding Eircom league players playing in the SPL where they look average. As much as I'd like to defend the Eircom league there' s a long way to go before it can be rated along side the Scottish league.

Results in Europe show there's little to no gap, with two obvious exceptions in Celtic and Rangers. Bohs beating Aberdeen is the obvious one, Shels would have beaten Killie if they were full time at the time, fitness was the only factor that cost them the match, that's no longer an issue. Results against other teams this season show it too, Shels knock out the Icelandic champions and Dunfermline go out to one of their UEFA cup sides loseing 3-1 at home. Players like Richie Byrne, who was less than an average EL player, have made the move to Scotland and been regulars (Though Byrnes lost his place over a contract dispute or something I think? Not to sure on that one). SPL sides get one or two rounds further but balance that with the advantage they have in that they get a seeding far above their level thanks to the results of Celtic and Rangers in Europe. Hearts, if unseeded and drawn against Lille would more than likely have gone out, they lost to probably inferior French opposition last season, but unlike Shels had the benefit of an inflated seeding and got an easier draw and progressed.

I think the SPL has far greater strenght in depth than the EL, but Shels, Cork and, when they're at their best which they haven't been this season, Bohs are as good as any side in the SPL bar the big two. Below that, the SPL sides are all superior I'd say.

eirebhoy

Slash/ED wrote:

Hearts, if unseeded and drawn against Lille would more than likely have gone out, they lost to probably inferior French opposition last season

Bordeaux? I wouldn't say inferior, they made the Quarter final's that year. Hearts actually beat them 1-0 at home too. Both Boh's and Longford were knocked out against weak opposition this year, it would be a complete upset if a Scottish team was knocked out by either of those team that beat them. It won't be long before the Irish will be regarded as favourites in the preliminaries though.

Players like Juninho and, eh, Flo think they're coming for an easy ride in Scotland but it is completely underrated as they found out.

Slash/ED

eirebhoy wrote:

Bordeaux? I wouldn't say inferior, they made the Quarter final's that year. Hearts actually beat them 1-0 at home too. Both Boh's and Longford were knocked out against weak opposition this year, it would be a complete upset if a Scottish team was knocked out by either of those team that beat them. It won't be long before the Irish will be regarded as favourites in the preliminaries though.

Well the Bohs result was an upset. They drew 0-0 away and were expected to beat them at home, as they did what, three years ago? 3-0. They were just playing poor and it showed in Europe. Longford, on the other hand, are just a poor side and are inferior to anything in the SPL.

Bordeux are behind Lille in the French league now aren't they? I'm honestly not sure, either way, Lille would have beaten Hearts, it shows how important their inflated seeding is.

eirebhoy

Bordeuax finished 4 points from top the season before last (ie. the season before beating Hearts), beating Lille 3-0 and 2-0. I don't agree that you could easily predict a Lille win. But do you think someone like Juninho or Prso would look so ordinary in the Eircom league? Richie Foran with just 2 goals including 1 penalty.

I have to reiterate that I'm not slating the Eircom league as I follow the league but I'm being realistic.

Slash/ED

Forans career has hit the rocks though long before going to the SPL. After a good first season with Shels and a superb first season with Carlisle he's not been the same player since. Juninho is the same, he was awful for Boro in his last two spells there and Prso is doing well for Rangers.

And maybe you couldn't easily predict a Lille win, you can't really easily predict anything in football, but Lille would have been very strong favourites.

I mean, I know overall the SPL is stronger, but the top teams in the EL easily match the non old firm sides in the SPL. The head to head between Bohs and Aberdeen shows this, the two matches against the Icelandic teams in Europe this season shows this too.

eirebhoy

Slash/ED wrote:

the two matches against the Icelandic teams in Europe this season shows this too.

Dunfermline are 8th in the SPL though which would compare to where Derry, Longford or Pats are positioned. Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree for the moment.

Slash/ED

eirebhoy wrote:

Dunfermline are 8th in the SPL though which would compare to where Derry, Longford or Pats are positioned. Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree for the moment.

Well maybe, but that's not the point I'm making. Every team in the SPL is better than the likes of Derry, Longford or Pats I'd say, just that Shels, Cork and Bohs when on form are about even with the non old firm SPL sides, but yeah, maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree

And to try and bring this back on topic, a better manager wouldn't have got Scotland qualified for any major tournaments but they'd still do better with someone like Strachan. They're players aren't THAT bad that they should draw with the Faroe Islands and Moldova.

thejollyrodger

looks like vogts isnt going to manage again !!

Vogts: I won't manage again
03/11/2004 - 09:47:35

Berti Vogts insists he will never return to management after his recent experiences as Scotland coach.

The 57-year-old resigned from his position on Monday, blaming his decision on the abuse he suffered from a minority of fans and a media witch-hunt.

But now the German insists the Scottish Football Association were also at fault for the poor team displays during his two-and-a-half year tenure.

Vogts said: “Nobody has understood what I wanted to do and my experiences in Scotland have robbed me of my energy. I am open to anything but I will not return to the dug-out.”

He added: “I have had enough of being the scapegoat for mistakes made in Scotland 15 years ago. I was trying to build up something new out of the footballing ruins. There are hardly any Scots playing in big European leagues. Where should I have picked star players?

“Most journalists and fans live in the past. They have not realised that Scotland is not the footballing nation it used to be.”

Meanwhile, Scotland and Wolves midfielder Colin Cameron has vowed to do all he can to prevent a repeat of the “strangest day” ever in his career.

The former Hearts captain, along with Molineux striker Kenny Miller, lost two managers in one day with Dave Jones leaving Wolves on Monday.

Cameron said: “It was the strangest day in my whole football career and I would never want to go through it again. I first heard about Dave Jones at 9.30am on Monday. I got a telephone call on my way to training and was told he had been relieved of his position.

“He then had a meeting with the Wolves players when he said his goodbyes.”